Emerald

Do the men that I mentioned not come across as men who have tamed their inner animal to you? First off, all of the men that I mentioned are highly intelligent and highly competent in their respective fields and they have risen to the top in those fields. So, I don't understand why you think they wouldn't be able to handle things if things got difficult as they've already shown they're highly resourceful and ambitious people. But more importantly than that... I don't live in some lawless context where my best chance of survival as a woman is to be concubine #57 to some ruthless warlord with ASPD. I live in the 21st century with a whole civilization built up around me with police officers, fire fighters, military, etc. and all sorts of other workers that are specifically tasked with protection. And there's tons of infrastructure built for safety. So, it would be a very rare occasion that I would be facing directly with some kind of danger from outside the household. (Side Note: Violence towards women usually comes from inside the household from abusive partners) And it would be even rarer that my partner would be the one that needs to protect me. And because society has developed to the point it has, I can afford to seek safer and more fulfilling relationships with men who are less ruthless and who have a more human touch.

Thank you! Yes, I had mentioned pickup more as a community that has elements of shame but that it's more of a mixed bag because there is also a practical efficacy to it that has more to do with seeking experiences/relationships with women. So, pickup is more of a community that has some elements of that shame... because of some men who feel heavy amounts of shame engaging in it in an attempt to fix the shame by seeking female validation... and in some part because the majority of men tend to experience shame in a milder way. So shame will be an element in the pickup community, but it isn't the primary coalescing factor.

It feels like you're just trying to argue with me for argument sake. None of what you're talking about even remotely pertains to what I'm talking about. And I wasn't even talking to you in the first place. I was just talking to @Princess Arabia about how the narrative that another person on the thread (also not you) was spinning is something that misrepresents women and thus strips us (conceptually) of our own agency within the context of their narrative. So, they're not saying "Jeez! Women have no agency and are so indecisive. Why can't they ever just choose what to eat?" That's a totally different stereotype that's relatively harmless and has elements of truth to it. They're saying, "The innocence of women is under attack by pick-up artists and the divine feminine wants me to protect the purity of women." And this narrative paints women as ultra-pure and helpless and lacking our own agency. It views women as sexless victims of male sexual predation even in consensual sexual dynamics. And it projects so many false assumptions about female sexuality onto women that has historically led to some pretty awful stuff that there are still echoes of. And when these types of narratives are superimposed onto us, it's frustrating at best and powerless feeling at worst because a person who thinks that way will never be able to see or hear you as a real person. But you keep bringing up random dynamics about your girlfriend being indecisive and expecting you to pick the dining place. And it's so entirely shoehorned in and off topic. So it just feels like you're trying to argue with me for the sake of arguing. It sucks to be projected onto and misrepresented in ways that are infantilizing. And if you were a woman, you'd hate it too. Just let us talk about how we feel about this (unfortunately common) dynamic without trying to bust into the conversation and argue us out of and invalidate our feelings with whichever cudgel you think you have.

Healthy men are mostly attractive to women who are healthy themselves and who are fairly self-aware about what they want and need in a relationship. Otherwise, it is like casting pearls before swine. The unhealthy will prefer the unhealthy. The healthy will prefer the healthy. In actuality, most unhealthy attraction dynamics come from underlying trauma patterns that happen to magnetize people to one another. So, it doesn't even have to do with anything positive that makes someone attracted to someone. This can shed some light on your question of how some destructive men attract women. The key is that they attract women who are destructive themselves... or that have inverted or analogous issues with trauma or self-esteem. It's also important to keep in mind that there's also the factor that different women will find different guys attractive on that level. For example, I can recognize that Will Smith is attractive and that he has many admirable qualities. But he's not the type of guy that appeals to my sensibilities. But truthfully... the main thing that would be helpful for you to focus on is the shame itself. And the way to heal from shame is to practice unconditional self-acceptance and self-love. But this will be challenging until you you find 1+ people to connect with on a friendship level who accepts you for who you are since we are a social species. And we will only feel safe coming to accept ourselves if we have people we're socially connected to who accept and value us. And all you need is 1 person that accepts you to start embodying yourself more.

Along the same lines as the last post... When I was in elementary and middle school, I was very unpopular and I got made fun of really often. And for years, I would try to formulate plans to get popular so that I could be accepted and get out of being such a social pariah. And in middle school, I found a group of other outcasts to spend time with. And for about a year or so, we were collectively viewed as untouchables and highly unpopular. But during this time, many of us really started to lean into what made us outcasts and what made us different. And this became part of the basis for our positive identities. My friend Joe coined the term "nerd pride" and it really captured how I felt about it all. So, instead of thinking about what caused me to be rejected as an indicator of my undesirability... instead I turned the tables and began viewing myself as different in a good way and that my nature is actually more interesting and cooler than the "normal people". And this was a good first stepping stone into a positive self-concept. The main thing is to take what you like least about yourself and to learn to celebrate it as what makes you special. Then you can be the phoenix that rises from your own ash.

That's all just the shame talking. It's only your beliefs about yourself that stem from those feelings of shame that make you feel like you're meant to be alone and that no one would want you. The first step is to fall in love with who and what you are. Start to prefer your own qualities. And example of this would be like this... When I was a little girl, I wanted to be pretty. But most pretty women in the media at that time were blondes... usually with blue eyes. And all the songs that people would sing about beautiful women would usually have blonde or red hair and blue or green eyes... with the exception of "Brown-eyed Girl". So, I was always thinking I was boring looking and unattractive when I was a kid. Add on top of this that I'm very pale, and being tan was/is seen as more beautiful in the eyes of society. But as a teenager, I started leaning into my darker features and my pale skin. And it worked really well with the goth look that I was going for at the time. And I began to genuinely prefer looking the way that I do. This is what you would need to do with your looks and your personality traits. Come to prefer the way you are and celebrate the way you are.

They all have really interesting unique vibes about them. It's what self-actualization really looks like when someone individuates to the point where no one else on the planet is even remotely like them because they have embodied and developed themselves so deeply. It's why I usually find all the attempts to be more Masculine to backfire because the attempt to do that often subsumes what's really brilliant and attractive about a given man into a paint-by-numbers model of manhood.

This is exactly what's so attractive about men. It's the subtle unpretended Masculinity.

Are you talking about the guys that I mentioned in my post above?

I personally have plenty of agency and know very well what I want. And I surround myself only with men who respect my agency and take what I say seriously. I'm pretty picky about who I allow into my life... male and female. The dynamic that I'm talking about is a more collective dynamic when groups of men get together and collectively project stereotypes, caricatures, and misrepresentations onto women as a whole group that they believe in wholeheartedly. It's similar to how a person who's racist against black people might not be able to see the actual personality of any given black person as they see them more as a collection of racial caricatures and stereotypes. The main difference is that there's an inherent sexual agenda attached to it when certain men do that to women as a whole group. And then when a woman tries to communicate something that diverges from that projection to the men who do this, they won't listen or will simply believe that she's deluded or that she's trying to trick and mislead him. It makes it impossible to be heard and seen for what's true about you. And the more a man holds onto his ideas about women in general, the less he'll be able to hear you as a woman. This is where the powerless feeling comes from that I had mentioned in my post above.

The thing is, women don’t need your protection against this that or the other pickup artist. And I can see this dream/vision of being the protector of the divine Feminine leading into you superimposing a narrative onto reality where you can play this savior/hero figure to supposed damsels in distress. But reality doesn’t work that way. And women don’t need this. The problems that women are facing at the hands of men can only be fixed with true mutual understanding and empathy. And our core problem doesn’t stem from the fact that pickup artists are seeking sex from us. The core problem comes from misrepresentation and not being understood or listened to. And having men’s agendas and narratives bulldoze over our agency. Sometimes this dynamic is sexual and sometimes it’s non-sexual. But it’s always about having our agency swallowed up into men’s agendas, narratives, and misconceptions.

What I would say is that the men that I admire the most and who I find myself most attracted to tend to be men who are very unique who probably never think of being Masculine yet have a really beautiful subtle Masculine energy. But I’m not so sure that men who value being more Masculine would see these men as role models of Masculinity. And men might not appreciate why I would find these men attractive and they may not recognize their Masculine energy because it doesn’t have much to do with the Masculine ideal. They are just fully themselves and living in alignment with their purpose. And their natural subtle unpretended Masculinity comes through effortlessly. Here are some examples of well-known men who I look up to and who I find attractive… (Young) Mr. Rogers Jon Stewart Cornell West (Young) George Carlin Reggie Watts Jack Black Bo Burnham That’s the thing about Masculinity, the moment you try is the moment you fail.

@thierry I wouldn’t worry about what the energy guy said. It gives you the impression that your difficulties letting her go stem from her being an energetic vampire that’s sucking energy from you in some mystical way. But I don’t believe that at all. And it’s honestly an irresponsible thing for him to tell you because it makes you feel like she has some power over you that she doesn’t. The power is only in your hands to let her go.

@Applegarden8 Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you said. But I want to clarify. I am not a medium, nor do I have any spiritual powers. Shadow Work is just about making what’s been unconscious conscious again.

Usually around 40 is what I’ve heard.

I can relate 😄

In this case, what I mean by love is a relationship between two people based on a deep feeling of bondedness that has grown over time… and where people’s lives have grown intertwined with one another over time. But the issue with your questions is that you’re trying to make love fit into your current paradigm about male/female dynamics. And love can’t fit into that paradigm at all. Lao Tzu said, “If you want to gain knowledge, add things every day. But if you want to gain wisdom, remove things every day.” You’ll have to embrace the “not knowing” to open yourself up beyond your current paradigm… which might feel scary. I sense that you ask all these questions to try to get maximum assurance so as not to get hurt. But it’s that very tendency that will keep you from opening up and connecting,

I totally get that. The raw approach is good too and you convey your points very well. And to be honest, my initial emotional reaction is always a mix of incredulity and exasperation when someone says something wild… especially about women in ways that evoke feelings of powerlessness (usually due to misrepresentation of some sort or another and not being heard/seen because of being overshadowed by the misrepresentation). It just grates against those ancient Feminine wounds and my Nervous System short circuits for a moment or two and 10,000 volcanoes explode before I can collect my thoughts. 😄

Me saying that you have to experience it is a means of me trying to get you out of rationalizing mode. I cannot explain to you what must be directly experienced nor would it be helpful. If you wanted to learn how to play basketball, you could read every book and figure out every technical understanding of the physics of it intellectually. But no amount of rational understanding will help you learn how to play basketball. You have to actually play basketball. Likewise, understanding love on a rational/intellectual level won’t help you develop this kind of connection. My best advice is to let go of the need to know what love is intellectually and instead focus on developing warmth and connecting with other people (women and men) on a friendly level. Then, after you get used to connecting, this will set the stage for you to connect in a more romantic way.

You’re identifying too strongly with being the good guy and savior of women. Be careful, if I had to pick between who scared me off more… a pickup guy or a guy who thinks himself a defender of women’s chastity… the latter would put me off a lot more. Now, both would probably put me off. It’s just not equal. The reason why is because the pickup guy’s motive is something I can understand in a straightforward way. I would get why a guy would want to have sexual experiences with women even if I don’t want to be one of them. But a guy who fancies himself an agent working for the divine feminine to protect women’s chastity is likely dealing with a variety of different Shadows that will likely come out in ways that scare women off. Here’s a list of things that could be underneath the surface of someone who thinks this way… Feelings of moral superiority over other men Feeling like sex is bad which indicates sexual shame and repression and all the monstrous expressions that can take Jealousy over women’s past sexual experiences A desire to control female sexuality Having false projections of female innocence and seeing women only as the victims of villainous men that need to be saved by virtuous men Not being able to see the woman for who she is outside of this narrative Identifying with the good guy to the degree that you cannot recognize yourself as threatening Delusions of grandeur around being the savior figure to women Fetishization of female purity which can lead to seeking very young partners with no previous sexual experience Seeking female validation by being the good guy who’s not like the other guys Tone deafness and being unaware of how much these ideas would make a woman cringe Etc. I’m not saying that all of that is necessarily true for you. But it is what I immediately would think when someone says what you said.

You’re trying to rationalize all this way too much. But you won’t be able to understand what it’s like until you experience this type of connection. Most people are capable of forming non-transactional relationships with one another on the basis of mutual love. And that in itself is what most people who truly value having a relationship are looking for. Mind you, there are many people with traumas/coping mechanisms that could shake a relationship apart. There can also be fundamental incompatibilities that make a relationship untenable. But in lieu of these complicating factors, most people want to love and be loved. The relationship dynamic itself is the thing that is of primary value. The other give and take elements are just side components. It seems like you believe that a woman would only value a man out of some external need that he meets. You don’t seem to believe that a woman can value a relationship with a man because she loves that man in particular:

Great point 🙂

I recommend checking out the work of Drs. John and Julie Gottman. They have done decades worth of research on what creates a happy relationship and can predict with 94% accuracy which couples will stay together and which won't. They just did an interview on Diary of a CEO recently...

Sure. There are better and worse ways to cope with the shame. Red Pill guys and pickup guys (the ones that this shame dynamic applies to) are generally going to have better coping strategies to deal with their shame than Incels and Black Pill guys. In fact, some men (and people in general) can become wildly successful with women and with life in general because they're coping with shame. But if you look, you'll see that the common thread of toxicity that runs through each of these communities is a shame-based toxicity. That includes the toxicity in the pickup community. But the pickup community is more of a mixed bag because there are guys that end up there just because they want to learn attraction skills. It's a place where some go there to chase two rabbits... to get good with women and to try to alleviate shame through female validation. And some go there to chase one rabbit... to get good with women. That's why, in my original post, I didn't include pickup as directly being a community of shame. But I mentioned pickup as a side element that has a lot of this dynamic within it... but isn't what I would call strictly a community of shame. This is the exact quote of what I said.... "And the pattern that has coalesced can be seen in communities like Red Pill, Incels, MGTOW, and the Manosphere in general. You can also see it in men who aren't directly involved with these online communities but that tend to have a lot of bitterness and mistrust towards women. And you can see these same patterns arise in pickup/male dating communities a lot as well."

The men that I'm primarily referring to in this post (that are involved in Manosphere groups) get anxious because they believe that, when a woman rejects them, it means something about their measure as a man and their existential worth more generally. This is a dynamic that occurs mildly in most men to some degree or another. But in the groups that I mentioned, that internal narrative is more extreme and almost take on a Social Darwinian view where attractive women are the arbiters of male worth and that men "have to be in the top 10% of men" to be worthy.