Emerald

I'm not doing it on purpose. It's just where my mind and intuition naturally goes as a woman if I'm feeling a guy out. And truthfully, if I'm out on a date with a guy already, I've probably sensed his personality out enough to not be hit with a surprise like that. But these are actually important considerations. "Is he an ardent Feminist OR is he just stingy with his resources?" or "Is he an overly suspicious person who's afraid someone's going to receive a benefit from him without giving something back in return?" or "Is he just a dick?" And it's in women's nature to sense them and feel them and consider what they might mean about his character... even without intending to. And your response to me disclosing how women may think and feel about these actions and vibes, reminds me of a story one of my classmates had told the rest of the class once. I was an education major. And many of the other education majors were in the field of deaf eduction. And there's a deaf and blind school near my college that's a very well-known school. So, every child that goes there is either deaf or blind. So, my classmate was doing a practicum in one of the deaf classrooms as part of her requirements for the class. And there was a very young deaf student in class who was farting... and he was doing it often. So, she had to go and sign to him that the blind kids and others in the room can hear him farting, because he hadn't realized that. And he got offended about it and signed to her, "Tell them to stop hearing my farts!" He considered it to be an invasion of privacy that they would voluntarily be hearing his farts. What he didn't understand was that hearing isn't something that you can turn on and turn off at will. The blind hearing students couldn't simply choose not to hear him farting. And he hadn't realized that yet that hearing was automatic for hearing people. So, your post reads to me like this. Women sense these things about men automatically. And if they've had enough life experience, the things they take in through those senses will link up to lessons they learned in the past... or experiences they had in the past... or knowledge they have about how people can be. I was just letting the OP know that his unwillingness to pay for a $5 coffee can put out some really unattractive signals... especially for highly discerning women... Lest he be the deaf kid who doesn't know his farts are audible.

I wonder if the concept of "building yourself" could be something that the universe is whispering at you. Or perhaps even building up elements of your skills, lifestyle, career from a blueprint to make your life more structurally sound. I like to use synchronicities this way, where I assume them as little messages from the universe... and find the ways they're relevant to me.

That does change the context a bit. And it isn't as bad in that context. But I still feel like it signals a few things that aren't ideal that would prick up my ears a bit if I were on a spontaneous date with a guy. And I think there are much better boundaries you can use to weed out the wrong ones. I personally find it very attractive and like a green flag if a man isn't too worried about resources... and isn't very concerned about loss of small amounts of time, energy, and resources. This shows that the man is un-bothered, has a decent amount of abundance, and is pretty generous and open. He doesn't live his life guarding himself against small losses. And when stakes are low, he doesn't sweat a few dollars lost here or there... or an hour lost here or there. And if you feel like you need to set this boundary in this way to where these $5 spontaneous coffee dates are costing you so much time and energy that it's meaningful to you, it makes me think you're not being very selective about the women you're willing to spend time with and go on a spontaneous date with... and maybe you aren't asking them if they're single up front. (of course, if they lie to you, that's on them) OR that small amounts of energy, time, and money are a bit too meaningful to you. Of course, if finances are tight already or you work like 50+ hours per week, I totally understand. That means you have genuine resource scarcity. But if a $5 coffee is nothing to you and these spontaneous dates are costing you less than $30 per month, then I would suggest showing up in a way that shows that you're abundant, generous, open to giving time/energy/money, and generally unbothered by a few dud spontaneous dates where your small investment gets burnt.

I'm talking about a coffee date. I feel like fancy dinners are for special occasions AND later on in the development of the relationship... maybe a few months in.

100%

That's the wrong way to think about it... and it sends an unattractive message. When I was single, I'd never be the type of woman who's just "bored and thirsty" enough to go on a cheap coffee date with a guy, if I didn't genuinely see the guy as a dating prospect. (And most women aren't that kind of woman) I'd have to be at least somewhat interested to go out with a guy. I'll buy my own coffee and drink it alone at the cafe if I want one. But if the guy invited me out on a cheap coffee date and doesn't at least offer to pay for my coffee... many things are being communicated about him about his personality that would be a turn-off and would evoke skepticism in me. My mind would go to the following... Does he have money issues? If so why? (bad job... irresponsible... gambler... addict... can't manage money?) Can he hold down a job? Is he employed? Is he really cheap and the type that if I married him, we're going to have a really restrictive relationship with money as a couple? Is he just one of those guys who thinks women are trying to use him for his $5 coffees, so he refuses to be generous with women? Is he overtly suspicious that other people will try to use him? Are there trust issues? Does he not value the fact that I took time out of my day to go on a date with him? Does he go on a ton of dates and is trying to penny-pinch so he can go out on more dates with more women? Did he just schedule this date with me because I'm a willing woman, with nothing special about me in particular? Is he just a really closed off person who doesn't want to give anything of himself to the world? Is he just a dick? So, you're really shooting yourself in the foot with women if you do this... as she will intuit unattractive things about your personality if you cheap out on a $5 coffee date. Bearing in mind... I have been very poor before. When I was 20 years old when I technically homeless for a couple months. And I lost 30 lbs because I just didn't have enough to eat. But even during that time... I would not have gone out on a date with a guy just so he'd pay for my food. And I definitely wouldn't have gone on a date with a guy based on the fact that he's going to buy me a $5 coffee. If I was on a date, I was at least somewhat interested in the guy. And cheaping out on coffee would have been a turn-off, a tell about his values and personality, and a sign that he doesn't value me or the fact that I was interested enough in him to go out on the date.

I used to have a lot of astral projection experiences when I was a teenager (I was agnostic, leaning heavily atheist at the time)... and I also had a few as a child. I still have them once every now and again. But I don't know if that's exactly what you mean by 'astral world'. To me, this seems more in the realm of a hypothesis and collection of metaphysical assumptions that... There is an astral world The astral world is real The astral world is more easily connected to by religious/spiritual people than atheists (in my experience, that's not true) The astral world is the source of human imagination and creativity The things that Christianity speaks of exist in the astral world There is a spiritual world that has subsets The astral world is a subset of of that spiritual world Really, all of these hypotheses are unknown and unknowable. I've had probably had somewhere between 50 and 100 astral projection experiences altogether. And I've always found it most valuable to "keep the loop of uncertainty open" about the reality or non-reality of that state and the apparent reality that presents itself in that state. In all things of this nature, I think it's important to remain a fence sitter and sit in the uncertainty like... maybe it's some alternate dimension OR maybe it's just a really realistic-seeming and consistent dream that happens to begin by getting up from my bed OR maybe something else entirely is happening. It's the embrace of the mystery that enables the cup to stay empty and open for new perspectives and possibilities to flow in, regarding seemingly metaphysical phenomena that one can experience on the phenomenological level. So, I would frame this more as "possibilities to ponder on"... rather than framing it as an insight, understanding, or an explanation of the nature of what's experienced during astral projection. The reality is that we cannot know... nor can we even know that we cannot know.

OMG! That's hilarious. Maybe the forum's true nature IS Esoteric Grindr.

That sounds like a synchronicity because something very specific came up twice. Are you interesting in architecture as a profession? Or... is there anything about architecture as a concept (like building something structurally sound from a blueprint) that feels symbolically relevant to your life?

You may see it as simply being judgmental. But at the time, I thought you were a 20-25 year old guy who may have limited experience with dating/relationships. So, I was just telling you that women won't be interested in you if you think that way. But it's fine not to share your age. It just means that I can't accurately understand the situation you're in. And I feel like my initial impression of your post may have been incorrect. Maybe I could ask it this way, "Are the "older women" who keep approaching you at least 6 years older than you?' And, "Are the younger women you're trying to attract within 5 years of your age?" If the answer is "no" to both of those questions, then the "older" women being attracted to you and the younger women not being attracted to you is normal. Most women are attracted to men who are within a few years of their age... and only 10-15% of women are open to dating a much older man. If the answer is "yes" to both of those questions, then it makes me think you might be tending to flirt more with women you're not as interested in or may feel more at ease being open with women you're less interested in.

It does matter to the topic of the thread... and in dating in general. When you're saying "only older women are interested in me but I'm only interested in younger women." Like, are you a 23 year old guy trying to get into a relationship with a 21 year old woman... but these brazen 40 year old cougar ladies keep going after you? Or are you pushing 40 and trying to date 23 year old women who aren't interested in dating an older man... but then a bunch of 40 year old women your own age are the only ones showing interest? Your age is highly relevant to the topic of this thread.

How old are you. I thought you were in your early 20s. But some are saying you're like 40.

See, I didn't realize that he was around my age. I thought he was a young guy. So, these "older" women that keep hitting on him are probably just women his own age.

Oh. I assumed he was a young guy... like in his early or mid 20s. I was thinking, "Why is this young guy getting hit on by cougars so often. What's he doing to indicate interest, such that he's getting so much cougar attention?" Meanwhile, the "older" women are just his own age. Maybe they're older than him... like 50s or something. In which case, the dynamic is different still than what I expected. But I was thinking he was a 25 year old guy getting hit on by women in my age range (near 40).

The issue is that any intellectual framework can be used to keep someone rationalizing themselves into victim's mentality.

You're thinking in an immature way about women that practically guarantees that you won't line up with a highly discerning or emotionally intelligent woman of any age. Honestly... what kind of woman really wants to be with a guy who thinks the way you do about women?

Young women can sometimes be shy and afraid of creeping people out by being too forward... since young women experience a lot of creepers. I was always afraid of making the men I was interested in feel sexually creeped out or uncomfortable. So, I was very secretive about my feelings until I got a bit older. But it was out of insecurity and fear of rejection. But I could see that cougar type women who are interested in younger men and approach them in bars might tend to be more forward and a bit easier. I'm sure they're mostly looking for a hook-up. For me, my standards have only gotten higher as I've gotten more experience and grown wiser. Like, the guys I was interested in in my teens and early 20s... I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole now. You just live and learn. And you become wiser and more aware of who you're compatible with and incompatible with... and what your dealbreakers are. Also, your lifestyle standards also raise as you get older. Like, when I was 18 years old... it may have been really exciting to sleep with some hippie guy who's in a band and lives in his van. But when you're 23+, that becomes unattractive because our priorities shift to building a home, getting married, and having a family. So, while older women who are trying to hook up with much younger men at bars might be a bit easy and they're maybe sticking around in a hooking up game that they should have matured out of... most mature older women are going to have much higher standards for men than younger women who are just experimenting and figuring out what they like. Many young women are often willing to put up with a lot of bs. Older women tend to get to a point where they're like, "I'm too old for this."

That sounds like a limiting belief. And I used to have the same thing when I was in my early 20s. I stopped being interested in guys under the age of 30 when I turned 20 because I had a belief that they weren't going to be as interested in intellectually deep things. Of course, guys in their 20s are less mature than guys over 30. But I had this kind of superiority thing where I just felt like guys in their 20s couldn't meet me in my depths. But that wasn't actually true. While men (and women) in their 20s aren't as developmentally mature as men (and women) in their 30s and 40s... you're just as likely to find a person in their 20s who's oriented towards the depths. Take me for example... I'm now in my mid/late 30s, and even though I understand more now than I did at 20 and I'm more mature... I have always been like this. I've always been oriented towards depth and towards intellect. If you met me as a teenager or even as a kid, you're recognize that the tendency to appreciate intellectual things has always been there. So, I don't think that a woman who has no interest in intellectual endeavors suddenly gets interested in them upon turning 40. And there are definitely women in their 20s who are interested in intellectual things. What you may be picking up on is the added developmental maturity and life experience that comes with age. But if I were to communicate something to myself at 20, thinking that I was beyond men in their 20s... I'd say, just be where you are in terms of developmental maturity. Don't convince yourself that you're mature as a 40 year old when you're 20... just because you're interested in intellectual and deep things. Then, communicate more with female peers without thinking you're superior to them.

You've mentioned something like that before. And I find it interesting that you seem not to be interested in them, but you're interacting with them enough to where many of them are becoming attracted to you. So, that makes me think you're interacting with them in context where they're likely to understand your attention as coming from a sexually interested place. It would be unlikely that you're just randomly interacting with a bunch of older women... and that so many of them are becoming attracted to you. I'm just wondering if it's something like... you feel comfortable flirting with women you're not interested in. But you feel uncomfortable flirting with women you are interested in. That's what could lead you to end up with a bunch of Milfs interested in you... with a bunch of women your age uninterested in you. There may even be a belief that older women are less attractive. And therefore you feel less intimidated by them and more open to interacting with them sexually because you feel like the desirable one by contrast and that they won't be as selective as younger women. Usually older women have higher standards for men, though. More experience tends to give older women less tolerance for things they used to tolerate as a younger woman. But it seems like these ladies may specifically be looking for some younger guy. Basically... how do you end up having so many older ladies interested in you? How are you meeting them... and in what kind of context?

I have had one night stands before when I was in my early 20s. That's how I know that it's boring and emotionally un-satisfying... and doesn't give me any of the feelings that make me feel like bonding with a man. So, I'm not even claiming that I've never done it. When I did back then, it was mostly because of loneliness after I had broken up with a longterm partner and having not-so-great boundaries. I'm just saying that it isn't compelling or satisfying for me. And it isn't compelling or satisfying for most women who have done it either. And many women have never done it and never would do it. And because I know that it's not satisfying, the scenario of Justin Bieber or whoever just coming up to me randomly and just being like "Hey, let's go to the bedroom" would just be random. And I'd probably get just as annoyed at a celebrity guy for trying to immediately take me to bed as I would with any average guy immediately trying to take me to bed upon meeting me. So, I'm quite sure that the majority of women would say no to a random out-of-nowhere sex offer from an attractive male celebrity... including women who occasionally go out clubbing and go home with some random guy they were dancing with that night. It's the immediacy and lack of build up that kills it. However, if we're thinking of a scenario where a woman meets Justin Bieber at a club. And they dance all night and they go for a walk after the club closes... and they're talking and joking back and forth. Then, I'd say probably somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of women would sleep with him that night. But it's still not the majority of women. And the scenario that Olaf brought up was like a 'Justin Bieber walks into a room and wants to have sex with you upon meeting you.' and thinking most women would sleep with him just like that solely on the basis that he's an attractive celebrity. I'd say that 10-15% of women probably would. But 85-90% would tell him to fuck off for opening with a proposition.

That's a bit random to assume the women on this forum would be attracted specifically to Enrique Iglesias. He's a handsome guy... but not my type looks-wise. But even if he were my type looks-wise, that doesn't do anything for me without any platonic intimacy built up. Also, physically I don't find Drake attractive at all. And Idris Elba is a more handsome guy than Enriques Iglesias, by my taste. But it doesn't matter if Idris Elba (or some other random attractive celebrity) came into the room and offered himself to me. I'd still be uninterested... because the feelings would be lukewarm and lacking in intimacy. But maybe average Joe down the street who I've been interacting with platonically for months and built up small moments of intimacy with might be obsessively on my mind. And every time we interact and I feel the tug in my heart and all the built up un-acknowledged sexual tension, and I'm just wondering whether things will escalate now... or later... or never. And there is longing. That's an accurate description to understand what attraction actually feels like for a woman. The "storyline" before the sex is VERY important for the sex to feel sufficiently meaningful and emotionally compelling. Think about the kind of smut that women tend to enjoy. It's usually in writing and has a lot of character and storyline build-up before the characters become intimate. And it's about the specific relational dynamic between the characters. Then, think about the kind of smut that men tend to enjoy. It's porn... and it's just visual and immediate. So, @Olaf's assumption is that women are operating in that visual and immediate way with handsome celebrity men... which is how many men operate with attractive women. But that misunderstands where the actual deep levels of sexual and emotional satisfaction comes from for women... which is the consummation of feelings for desire for a specific man with a specific personality... not just to extract physical pleasure from an attractive male body.

You're not understanding what I'm saying... and you seem bound and determined not to get the core of what I'm communicating. And if you don't understand, you will misunderstand how women feel about men entirely and end up in the trap that so many men on this forum end up in. I need VERY strong levels of heart-based emotional stimulation to feel romantically and sexually attracted enough to a man to feel moved to pursue anything with him. And many women also operate the exact same way. So, I'm not different than most women in this way. It's all about emotions and biological bodily responses... which are fairly similar for all women regardless of what's happening with the pre-frontal cortex. And if I could give you the feeling of hooking up randomly (even with Justin Bieber) from a woman's perspective... you'd be like, "This is mildly physically stimulating but also kind of boring". It's nothing to write home about. But if I could give you the feeling of what it's like to deeply want a specific man, you'd be like, "Wow! This is the best feeling ever! Can we turn this into a drug and sell it and make a fortune?" So, in this hypothetical with Justin Bieber, the maximum level of positive feelings that I could feel are like a 4 or 5 out of 10. And that's only if he's totally amazing at sex. So, it's not very rewarding to sleep with a random guy... even if he's an attractive celebrity. Of course, it would be different if I was a huge Bieber fan. Maybe then, it would feel like I knew him personally in a parasocial way and I'd feel highly emotionally stimulated by that in a heart-centered way. But unless a woman is a fan, she's probably going to feel very neutral about the sex offer from a celebrity. And it depend on if a woman is into random hook-ups or not to determine if she'd say yes or no. But most women aren't interested in hook-ups. Now, when women are sowing their wild oats or they're lonely... they may do hook-ups. But that's not very emotionally stimulating as it lacks all the highly intoxicating heart-centered feelings. And a woman who's operating that way would probably sleep with Justin Bieber if he was like "Hey, wanna have sex?" But that kind of sexual interaction is so emotionally tepid that I can't imagine that any woman would really feel like she got what she was looking for from it. Basically, the doorway to unlocking the full intensity of female sexuality and evoke genuine longing in the woman is through her heart. And random hook-ups don't do anything to the heart. It's why women are meh about them... and they're not very many women's actual goal.

I wouldn't sleep with a celebrity just because they're a celebrity. And I wouldn't sleep with a good-looking guy just because he's good looking. I need more heart-based emotional stimulation than that to truly want to get close to a man. And Justin Bieber (or whoever other attractive celebrity) simply walking into a room and offering himself to me wouldn't do anything for me. And while I think some women would sleep with Justin Bieber because he's famous/attractive... most women would not. My guess is that 30% of women would... and 70% of women wouldn't unless there was some deeper level of intimacy established with him on a personal level.

Most women absolutely wouldn't.

Think about it this way... Men and women both have the same minimum bar for general attraction... which is "Do I like the way this person looks and their at-a-glance vibe?" But men will be spurred into action by the minimum bar for general attraction because his task is attraction... and creating an abundance of options. Women already have an abundance of options. But she can also operate off of that minimum bar for general attraction if she's not looking for anything serious or she's out sowing her wild oats. In that case, 60% of guys are attractive enough to sleep with on a one-night stand. Also, women with low self-esteem or loneliness issues can also operate off of the minimum bar for general attraction. But when a man is looking for a serious relationship... he will still start taking action at the minimum bar for general attraction. For men, it's about casting the net wide and playing the numbers game. So, he will be biased towards increasing attractiveness to women as a general group. In contrast, when a woman is looking for a serious relationship (which most women are only/mostly interested in that)... she will become very focused on a specific man and how he makes her feel. The goal is to narrow it down. Even most female dating coaches have to specifically teach women to have a few guys in the pool of candidates... because women will get locked in on a guy who it may not work out with. But having a pool of male candidates as opposed to just one guy that there are feelings towards can feel a bit unnatural. And most women's standards are such that they won't even particularly notice/register the majority of men who meet their minimum bar for general attraction, even if they're attracted to her. It's still going to be a no, unless there are deeper feelings pulling her toward him. So, you're just incorrect, as you're looking at hook-up behaviors in women as a sign that the true indicator of how women get attracted to a man she's serious about. But most women aren't interested in casual sex because it's just not that emotionally stimulating. So, it's a low to medium reward behavior... for a higher risk. Like, I've had casual sex before when I was in my early 20s, and it's very boring. I discovered that I didn't get anything that I want from a sexual interaction with a man because I need a connection that is more intimate and heart-centered to even feel interested in considering getting closer to a man in that way. So, men who meet the minimum bar of attraction are fine for women who are open to hook-ups for whatever reason. But most women don't actually want hook-ups and find them emotionally lacking. They want only to pursue where there are more intense feelings... and those only come towards a specific man for most women. And those feelings of boredom at casual sex... and feelings of excitement towards a specific man... are a woman's biology prioritizing selection over attraction. It's 100% biology and 100% psychology working together in tandem. Of course, a woman's biology (nervous system) and psychology can also pre-dispose her to feeling intense feelings of attraction towards specific awful men too. It's just that the feeling is so strong and magnetic when you feel that way towards someone. So, you don't see their flaws. It's very different than the lukewarm "meh" feelings of hook-ups.