Emerald

It could be that. Though I would expect a lot of Carnivore and Paleo dieters in that context. I've noticed that techy business-oriented people tend to go for those types of diets. Those seem to be more in fashion.

Thank you and you're welcome That makes sense that the approach doesn't work for you. A tendency that I've struggled with is the tendency to be super emotionally aware of all the sufferings of the world... over which I have very few levers of power. And there's been this tendency to hyper-fixate on suffering... usually human suffering but sometimes non-human animal suffering as well. And this has led to this expending energy in a way that doesn't get traction... and just creates a lot of distress for me because my power to create mercy is limited. And I suffer in the spinning of the wheels and getting little traction. So, I've been deliberately imposing limitations and boundaries on myself when it comes to awareness of suffering. My boundary is that if I have no lever of power to impact things, I will tune out from the suffering. And I will only be aware of the suffering in the degree that my awareness leads through to a tangible benefit to the suffering. Right now is a period of time where I need to pull all of my energy towards myself and my family. So, I am deliberately contracting myself... instead of engaging in my usual patterns of being the single tablespoon of peanut butter trying to spread itself over every slice of bread in existence. The way that I contend with allowing others sovereignty while animals are denied that sovereignty is to recognize the limitations on my own power. Currently, reality runs in a way where most human beings regularly consume animals. And while a part of myself is upset by that and would want to make that stop by any means necessary, I understand that these shifts must happen from the inside out... not the outside in. Otherwise, they won't be sustainable. And I see that putting pressure on it from the outside will be counter-productive. The best I can do is to help compassionate people become conscious that their actions aren't matching their values. So, it's less values focused and more awareness focused. And my understanding of the progress that's being made is one that's 10 steps forward and 9 steps back. We lose a lot of wisdom as we go but we also gain more. But there's a lot of contrast between the positive and negative. The thing that we're moving towards is a more united world. And while some tribes may have had an advanced sense of compassion and heart-wisdom, they would tend to be wiped out by other tribes and nations that lack in the heart-wisdom that don't feel connected to the harm they're causing. And that becomes a problem that heart-wisdom has always been met with hostility and dominance by outside domineering forces that are far less wise. This was a problem with hunter-gatherer groups that eventually got absorbed into tribes. And it was a problem with tribes that eventually got absorbed into nations. It will likely also happen when our nations get absorbed into the world. And this will be a problem until we have a collective world identity, where there is no one outside of us. At that point, we can safely live from the space of heart wisdom without being assailed by the forces of external dominance. And to do this, we must first come together... which is part of what's happening. Eggs are breaking to make and omelette. This part of the process is always chaotic, messy, and even violent. And the heart-centered forces will likely once again be conquered by the unwise domineering forces to be united under authoritarian rule by the most disconnected among us. It's just like Rome was united through conquering and domineering... and lots of suffering and bloodshed. But once that happens, the barriers will erode more and more until unity is possible. And we will also learn more and more about collective healing. So, the suffering is part of journey towards mercy. And mercy and suffering are two sides of the same coin. Out of suffering awareness comes. And from awareness, mercy is born. But to render the armor obsolete, there are many ideological, technological, and paradigmatic changes that have to happen. And there is a lot that we have to collectively understand and integrate into our ways of rearing children and running society. And I see that it's happening. Now, with the "we don't have centuries" comment, I think you're referring to climate change. I see that as a problem that will quickly self-correct in a few generations through the drop in the human population due to lower birth rates. There will be some side issues with this that will impact our human systems for several decades or perhaps a half a century or so. But it will likely slow or solve that problem.

It's apt that it's Vince McMahon on the gif. But to answer your question, it's deeply frustrating to me. I can feel a lot of rage because I can easily stand in the shoes of another being and imagine myself on the receiving end of their superior power and ignorance. But there are reasons why people tune out from their heart-wisdom that I have had the good fortune to see very clearly in several of my Ayahuasca journeys. Everyone is just a really sensitive vulnerable child deep down. And becoming callous and developing all sorts of intellectual and emotional armor is what seems to keep them safe... or perhaps did keep them safe at some point in their lives. So, I see the solution to the majority of our macrocosmic problems as coming from an ignorance to how to render that armor obsolete. I may not see it in my lifetime, but we are just now scratching the surface of how much collective healing we can do. And once that healing ripple gets going (which it already has been truthfully) we will start to naturally manifest a more compassionate societal structure and raise more compassionate children. But it may take some centuries to really see the cumulative effects of these shifts.

I tend to keep the visceral awareness of the suffering away from myself. When I first went Vegan, I watched Earthlings and really faced into those realities of suffering and made my choice from there... on the condition that I not dwell on it and instead focus on what little bit I can control. So with my family, I don't feel the visceral sense of awareness of animal suffering associated with their actions... or anyones. And this enables me to allow other people their sovereignty to make these decisions from an internal sovereign place rather than because I'm pressuring them to. And I see it as more likely that my children will one day make the decision to go Vegan from that sovereign place if I present myself as a role model than as an authoritarian source of pressure... which would backfire. So, I just remind myself that humanity is a work in progress out of our collective disconnection and that we are making strides, even if it's slow from the perspective of the individual human life. But a good thing that's come about is that my eating habits have influenced my husband's eating habits quite a bit. And so, we don't keep much meat or dairy in the house.

Thank you. That's a pattern that I notice a lot on here. And you are correct that it's in other places as well. But especially intellectual spaces... the people in them can be expert mental gymnasts to rationalize away all sorts of down to Earth truths that the youngest children can see quite plainly. All the intellectualizations are the Emperor's New Clothes.

That was always my impression of him... just as a gut vibe that I've gotten about him that he has an emptiness he's trying to fill. And clinging to eternal life corrupts the spirit. It's all yang with no yin. So, I was a bit surprised to hear him prioritize compassion. He always struck me as robotic and prioritizing longevity over all else.

These types of influencers make their money and get popular by pandering to men and telling them something affirming and validating... even if they're affirming negative things. For example, Blackpill panders to men who worry they're going to die alone by telling them "Yes, you've been right all along. You will die alone." And in this case, it gives this validation from a woman. So, it gives a false para-social kind of sense of bonding with the woman in the video because she understands you and empathizes with you 'while those other women won't'. It's also empowering because it's "Why men are deciding to remain single." It gives the sense of agency and power in dating because it's "I've decided dating women isn't worth it because women are ___." instead of "I feel really uncomfortable with dating because of my own internal reasons." It gives the illusion of power and someone to blame. And it's a victim narrative. And like you said, it also gives you rationalizations for why dating is a bad idea and isn't worth it so that you can maintain the status quo. Ultimately, all these kinds of channels (not just ones with female hosts) are looking to keep you in an insecurity cycles so that you keep clicking on the videos and keep buying their products and services. These people are just in the business of exploiting common male insecurities. And they have done market research to tell you what you want to hear in your own words. It's just like there are so many businesses exploiting women's insecurities by telling them they're not beautiful enough and selling them a fix.

That's interesting. And I do tend to share his views on society growing more compassionate as it develops. I'm actually somewhat surprised/impressed that his choice is coming from ethically Vegan place and that that's what he's prioritizing. The vibe I've gotten from him is that he values longevity as his primary value.

I thought he chose it because he looked at the studies of different diets' correlation with all-cause mortality and chose the diet associated with the lowest risk.

Of course that's true. Heart-wisdom without intellect-wisdom is an innocent child. Intellect-wisdom without heart-wisdom is a floating brain in a jar. But the problem with this particular context is the "brain in a jar" problem. Too wrapped up in intellectualizations to get in touch with grounded embodied wisdom and empathy. And not aware when they use their higher understandings to block out uncomfortable down-to-Earth truths. Too much up in the branches... not enough down in the roots. But the issue is actually lack of integration between intellect-wisdom and heart-wisdom... and using one to negate the other or seeing them as fundamentally opposed to one another.

Sure. That's true. But I see a lot more of the logical-minded traps in this context than the heart-centered traps. Lots of people using rote memorization of higher truisms to lie themselves out of their embodied heart wisdom

Yes, I agree with that. I thought you meant something different at first. It's the problem of the two thorns... You can use the mind and use deep contemplation to take away your blinders or to cement them on. But the pattern that I notice is that people tend to reach for top shelf absolute truths to overwrite and ignore more practical and heart wisdom truths. It's using intellectual understandings of the Truth to hide the truth from ourselves. Very sneaky of us.

Explain a bit more. Do you mean the metaphorical chopping block? If so, yes we could end up in situations that induce suffering because someone is exploiting us. But if you mean literally... it's highly unlikely for a human being to be raised in a factory farm and slaughtered. That's pretty obvious. That said, you could empathize deeply and imagine being farmed. You could watch Earthlings. And that's what would awaken some of that heart wisdom I was talking about. But you could potentially be trafficked or put in a concentration camp or in a prison with not human rights... which is possible for humans to experience. People experience it all the time. So, we can be exploited and killed... just not usually in the same exact way.

Only if an alien race comes down and starts farming humans for meat and milking them.

Yes, exactly. And it tends to be that the types of animals we consume from factory farms are bred to be domesticated and cannot live in the wild. Like broiler chickens were selectively bred (during a contest that many farmers participated in back in the 50s) to grow extra large to produce more meat. But it's very unhealthy for the broiler chickens. And they don't live very long. And they certainly couldn't live in the wild. It's a little like how we bred pugs to suite human aesthetic tastes. But they have all sorts of health issues because of the selective breeding.

The reason why we have billions (though probably not trillions) of these animals in existence at any given time is because we continuously breed them into existence specifically for the purpose of consumption. So if we imagine a theoretical world where humans totally abstained from all animal agriculture and no one consumed animal products, that means that there would be no profit incentive to breed so many of them into existence. And farmers simply wouldn't breed them. And there are Vegan activists who have framed how we could taper that number down over time while allowing them to live out their lives. I don't recall the specifics of it though because it's been a while since I looked at it.

I'm the only Vegan in my house. I went Vegan after both of my kids were born. But if my husband and I were both Vegan when we had kids, then I'd have probably wanted to raise them Vegan from the get-go. But I would not interfere with the status quo and upend their person sovereignty in those choices. The way that I see it is that I'm able to have a much more positive and long-lasting impact on them by simply modeling the behavior and allowing them to behave in the way they're used to.

Sometimes I feel like this lower vs higher perspective thing (while indicating something that's true in the absolute) can be a way to ignore embodied heart-based wisdom by writing over it with a disconnected intellect-based rationalization that is meant to maintain homeostasis. I notice this can often be a problem on this forum in particular. Everyone's always looking for the superior intellectual framework. But many miss what really matters. And the servant becomes the king and the king the servant. And doing this intellectual trick can be used as a way for a person to hide their embodied heart wisdom from themselves through a series of abstract higher truth intellectualizations. And they can use these higher truth intellectualizations to poke holes in Veganism so that they don't have to become conscious of the incongruence between their actions and their heart-wisdom. And they can maintain the status quo without sensing their cognitive dissonance. And this doesn't just happen with Veganism. I've seen people do it with other harm/suffering related topics as well. But Veganism is a good example to use because most people aren't Vegan. Like if you're a human being and you say "There's a reason for evil to exist because the nature of God is infinity... which includes suffering." or "Morality is relative." These statements are true in the absolute. But people can use these absolute higher truths to rationalize away their heart wisdom. But if we were a cow at slaughter, we would not be able to ignore the heart wisdom. It is only from the armchair of privilege that we can intellectualize with the taken for granted solace that we will not be on the chopping block in this life.

RIP David Lynch. I really enjoyed Twin Peaks. But I also like his other strange ideas... like his show Rabbits. And his book about "Catching the Big Fish" is really helpful for people aspiring to be creative. I read it like 10 years ago or so and it opened me up to new ways of thinking about creativity.

@Leo Gura @Something Funny @yetineti @Malekakisioannis Thank you

Lol. You're super immature with repeat of the sandwich comment. You go make me one. And you literally said "We run you" and "men built everything and you women will have to obey". And "women love it when I scream at them to make me a sandwich." It was really direct and making a clear statement that men are superior to women and that women need to obey men. And you came out the gate with male supremacist narratives. Don't pretend like you were just 'mentioning' traditional gender roles and that my Feminist brain 'blew a gasket' at the mere mention of traditional norms. I was a stay at home mom for about a year after my son was born. And while I'm glad to have spent the extra time with him, I wasn't feeling very fulfilled because it was isolating and non-directional... and the work was constant with no dynamism. So, I felt a lack of meaning in the way my life was structured. But I understand that some women might prefer that dynamic. I certainly wouldn't criticize that choice. It just isn't for me because I need a sense of worldly trajectory in my life. And look back at your posts in this thread. You clearly believe that your culture is superior to Western culture. So, don't pretend like you don't. Like I said to you before... be honest and own your shitty opinions. Don't try to weasel out of them because you realized later on how bad they make you look. And yes, there's a lot of Western imperialism... which is why there are huge disparities in the indexes that the other Western guys were mentioning. We'd all have similar levels of Spiral Dynamics development if imperialist nations (like the US) weren't playing world police and toppling foreign governments to bring "democracy" to the "backwards places". It's similar to how we used to say "bringing civilization to the uncivilized". It's all a narrative to weaken other potential empires and to extract cheap labor and steal resources. But I see now that Leo said that we're supposed to keep the topic on Andrew Tate. So, I'll leave this discussion here.

So you don't like it when people create supremacist narratives, eh? I suppose we have something in common then. But weren't you just spouting off some male supremacist narratives the other day saying 'We're men and we own you and you must obey us because we make society' etc.? Plus, you've spent this whole thread saying how your culture is superior to Western culture. So, I don't really think you have any foot to stand on complaining about supremacist talking points because you fundamentally agree with the notion of supremacy. Your whole worldview is based on it. You agree that there are some cultures that are superior to others. You just don't like it when others do the same thing to you because you think everyone should agree that your culture is superior. And Western culture is your main bug bear because it is perhaps the most diametrically opposed to your own.

Of course she wouldn't be okay with knowing that. It would naturally create a feeling of insecurity with the relationship, and for good reason. Women's sexual instincts are very much wrapped up in creating a stable context to raise a child in, even if the woman isn't interested in having children. So, being with a guy who's not committed will create an intense anxiety once she is attached to that guy. The best thing to do is probably to break it off with her as soon as possible since you're not that into her, as it will free her up to find someone who genuinely wants to be with her instead of leading her on and wasting her time. Also, if you actually have real feelings for a woman (not just surface level attraction), you won't want to leave her for someone who's theoretically better. The main issue here is that you may not have actually had real feelings for a woman before. So, you may not know what that feels like yet. So, you're approaching women as fungible and something to level up with. And this will create a really anxiety-provoking relationship dynamic for the woman because she will see you as non-fungible but you will see her as fungible and as something to trade out for a better model. And if she's attached to you and hasn't learned to differentiate between men that are really into her and men who are sleeping with her and spending time with her, she may waste a lot of time anxiously trying to keep you and convince you to care about her. So, my recommendation is to break up with her.

Yes, I'm in a relationship. I don't feel like this tendency comes from trauma with bad men... though my first relationship from age 16-20 was terrible. But I'm not angry at him. I just feel bad for him. I suspect he has BPD. And he wasn't a misogynistic guy or a cheater or anything... he was just self-destructive and that self-destruction eventually became something that was really dragging down the quality of my life. And on the last day of our relationship, he threatened to hurt me and kill me... which he'd never done before. So, that was how that ended. That one was a really traumatic relationship that went on 3.5 years longer than it should have. But otherwise, my experiences with men have been primarily positive. But that's been because I'm pretty good at discerning which men to keep away from me. (and people in general) I just really cannot stand all these men's movements because they aggravate and step on the wounds that women collectively have. And it really creates a lot of fear and unsafely and anger and all sorts of other emotions. Plus, it's warping into all the political ideologies that are threatening to encroach upon my rights and freedoms. So, I find it very upsetting and disempowering. And it's difficult to not get too upset at an individual man who's like this. But I notice that when I'm on here talking about anything about my experiences with being female, I don't feel like people are open to understanding me because I'm a woman talking about the female experience. So, I tend to want to share my more polarizing feelings and perspectives in a way that's more judgmental to agitate a bit and to evoke emotions that could unsteady people and cause them to doubt or to question their narratives. This is something I don't really do it other contexts. But this is a forum where people mostly shout their options at others. So, I feel like there's something that's verging on a kind of catharsis as I tend to keep my judgments to myself as I don't really have a context to release all the feelings I have about all this crazy manosphere stuff that's all over the place. But I can also set that totally to the side and fully see the vulnerabilities that make all of that run. But when I do that, I am not able to be in touch with my own vulnerability and anger. So, I treat this as my place where I get to be a bit combative and polarizing when I'm typically doing the opposite. But in honestly, I've found that having these sorting mechanisms have served me pretty well. Sorting is the most important skill a woman can develop as it pertains to developing a healthy social circle and getting into a relationship with a healthy and compatible partner. So, that's something that's more of a background mechanism that I don't even have to think about it.