Emerald

Yeah, it's a common pattern that most women experience fairly early on in their dating life. And it mostly comes from guys who are attached to the self-identification with niceness and never consider that they could be perceived as not so nice. And I think it has to do with the societal and pop-cultural association of shame and self-deprecation with being a humble nice person. But shame doesn't actually translate to nice behavior. Shame often gets expressed as bitterness and vengeance towards the perceived aggressor (in this case women). Like, I've never heard an actually nice guy complaining about how women don't give him the time of day because he's nice. But it's one of those common gender patterns that make people jerks without realizing it. Like, most women go through a "not like the other girls" phase where they want to conceptualize themselves as "more like the guys because guys are less drama" and therefore different and superior to other girls. I used to be like this when I was between the ages of 10 and 13, and had no idea that I was being a jerk because this was a popular trope in movies and shows at the time for female protagonists. And most men go through a "women don't like me because I'm nice" phase where they go into victim's mentality about how women only like assholes. And they start going on about how they're a victim to women friend zoning them. And a big part of it comes from misunderstanding what it means to actually be nice. And also thinking too logically and transactionally about relationship and thinking niceness is or should be the currency that buys relationship. These patterns were around when I was in middle school... and I'm sure before then too.

My husband is from Hungary which was under Soviet rule when he was born. He was born in 1977, so he experienced growing up under Soviet rule until he was 12 or 13. He said that the Soviets were already pretty weak by the time the 80s rolled around. And he says that everyone knew it was bullshit. He didn't know anyone who was idealogical in their allegiance to the Soviet Union. But they had parades and Soviet rituals stuff in school. Everyone complied but no one really took it seriously. The thing with the Soviet Union is that there was a lot of top-down force to pressure people into being patriotic. And less so in the later days. And so, it didn't quite take hold of people. It was just the government that was enforcing the allegiance. At least that was evident from his perspective... which may have been limited since he was a kid when all the Soviet stuff was happening. He moved to America in the year 2000, and he was really shocked at how nationalistic we are with every other house having an American flag out front because he wasn't used to people being patriotic by choice. And he thinks that America is a far more effective in its nationalist propaganda in that sense.

When I have that feeling, I just stay away or create more distance. People give off vibes. And you can sense important things about their potential tendencies through those vibes. That said, you'd also want to consider that you could be projecting onto them. So, it's worth questioning. But if someone's vibe is making you feel uncomfortable and you aren't sure if it's a projection or not, a little bit of distance would still be wise... just paired with some contemplation.

I notice that you didn't tag me in your reply to my post, which is something I find quite interesting. If you're not going to tell me what happened, then what reason do I have to believe what you said at face value? Your claim is that you have been denied education, internships, and jobs because you are a white male. And that is the core evidence that you've provided to show why you're critical of wokeness. And yet, you won't tell me about the education and work opportunities that you lost because you were a white male. I find that quite telling that you don't have any concrete stories about that.

This is just more victim's mentality and blaming the other to shift the burden of responsibility for your own desires and life onto others. And that's what's repellent to women... and men alike. Stop caring about what other people have going on, and focus on building your life in the way you want it. There are tons of toxic men and women out there. But I don't worry about them and what they're doing because they're not going to affect anything in my own life as long as I have healthy boundaries and I proactively build relationships with people that feel good to be around.

I understand that you don't like what I said. But you should be aware that that's the way you come off with your victim narratives. People will not interpret you as nice. They'll interpret you as a potential emotional and physical danger because of your victim's mentality. People who identify as victim's see others as villains. And then, they try to become the hero that defeats those villains. And that's what makes them end up playing the villain role. So, people will stay away from people who are in victim's mentality for that reason. People with victim's mentality can be dangerous because they don't see the vulnerabilities of the other... only their own vulnerability. I recommend really pondering into this dynamic. It's a bitter pill. But it's true.

My experiences are that guys who go "I'm too nice, I need to be an asshole." are usually already giving off some 'not so nice' tendencies. And they come across as desperate and needy... and potentially emotionally and/or physically dangerous because of that. And Narcissists often go underneath people's radar because people are susceptible to being seduced and charmed. And Narcissists are more detached. So, people don't catch on unless they have really developed that kind of radar. With the "Self-Identified Nice Guys", they're usually not as smooth socially and they're attached. And they believe their lack of assertiveness and self-deprecation makes them nice. It's kind of like awkward everyman male protagonist syndrome, where they define neutral qualities as nice. And so, they operate from a place of bitterness. And people can tell both before and after they decide to "become an asshole" that they're not very nice.

Okay, I thought you meant literally.

Why frame it as such an extreme rarity? It's probably more like 30% of people (men and women both) are capable of having a functional relationship. And the only reason why that number is low is because the general populace has a lot more to learn about relationships, emotions, trauma, and authenticity in interdependent relationships.

I'm just going to give it to you straight because it would do you a disservice otherwise. You don't really give off the vibes of a good man. And you don't come across as kind or nice. I'm not saying you come across as bad or evil... but you come across as self-deprecating and having the potential to be quite toxic because of your victim narratives. And that makes you a potential emotional and physical danger from a woman's perspective because you see women as more powerful than you and are very attached to how women think about you... and you won't be attuned to the fact that you actually have more power than them physically.

I'm just telling you what I've experienced. When guys conceptualize themselves as a "nice guy" and get upset that "Only the jerks are getting laid. I'm going to be a jerk", they tend to express with more repellent behavior when they try. I've been not he receiving end of it before. But of course, people are not very conscious. Women are included in that. And I've seen plenty of women in my hometown go for violent domestic abusers who ruin their lives. But the preference really comes down to this... "At least in the short-term, narcissists are frequently perceived as charming, popular, socially confident and entertaining." The issue is that a lot of women see through rose-colored glasses and only see the charming, popular, and socially confident side. But if I think about my friend Randy (who is a super popular and warmhearted Masculine guy... and whose been with his partner for like a decade now), he was always super popular with his female peers because he was charming, popular, confident, and entertaining. And he was even a bit edgy. And girls were very taken with him. So, I take it more as a case of correlation and not causation. Women like confident men with an edge who push the envelope. And a lot of narcissists are confident men with an edge who push the envelope... but will also make life hell.

Nine times out of ten, masturbation is better in terms of the intensity of the physical pleasure. But sex is better emotionally and body-chemistry-wise even if the physical sensations themselves aren't quite as pleasurable. With for former, it's very linear and the pleasure comes from the loins and is very intense and localized. But with the latter it's more relaxing to the full body, and the pleasurable sensations come mostly from the center of the chest. And I rarely desire the former, but often desire the latter.

Definitely insane. And I've encountered a lot of men in this nice guy/bad boy delusion when I was in my teens and early 20s. And the issue in the first place is that they perceived themselves as nice guys when they were just ashamed and self-deprecating because of their shame, which doesn't have anything to do with being nice or pleasant to be around. But it tends to be the way good guy everyman main characters are written in movies to show that they are the good guy. So, they believe that being unassuming and self-critical makes them come off as nice and kind. But they were already exuding red flag vibes that scare women away. They just weren't aware of it. But it comes through in the vibe. And then, they think, "I guess women just like assholes. I need to become an asshole to get women to like me." But they were unconscious to the fact that they already were giving off asshole vibes. And then, they become aggressive and the red flags become more overt and scare women away even more. But they keep doubling down because they thought the issue was that they were a nice guy when they were never actually nice. And they will come to the conclusion, "I guess I wasn't enough of a bad boy to get sex. Let me triple down." And the cycle repeats.

A bit of victim's mentality, eh?

I'm not sure that women in Vegas are actually super materialistic. I think you're mixing up the imagery associated with the city with the people. Vegas is often associated with the imagery of show girls and wheeler/dealer gambler types. And Leo himself isn't a wheeler/dealer gambler type, yet lives in Vegas. The nature of the paradigm lock that Leo has that I'm referring to is that he tends to overlook humanity's communal filial nature and tries to boil human beings down to a Social Darwinian-esque paradigm.... which means seeing human dating/relationship dynamics as an objective hierarchical value exchange. It's sort of like stripping the humanity out of humanity... and believing that this kind of Darwinian reductionism will produce better insights about how human beings operate. Rather than actually observing the less-simple, less-sexy, and less-fetishizable but more accurate ways that we actually do operate. It seems to me that he believes that our communal nature is just a veneer that conceals and masks our true nature. And it will produce simpler insights to look from that angle that can help to get a sense of what women in the aggregate find valuable in a hierarchical sense... but will also create a false worldview if the practical good that is produced by that worldview is mistakenly seen as evidence of truth. And operating through the Social Darwinian lens of objective heirarchal value exchange and believing that it is truth will create anti-social ways of operating and fears for men of not being able to be loved for who they are as a person. So, there's a lot of ways that I observe these narratives backfiring... especially when men are convinced the narratives are the absolute truth.

This post isn't actually about attracting women. So, pickup advice isn't going to help in this case. In fact, many of the posts on this section of the forum can't be helped with generic pickup advice. But there are plenty of practical techniques that men can use to attract women, which can be used without extrapolating skewed narratives about women to go along with them. But what tends to happen is that Leo and others find what works and want to weave that together with a certain ideological understanding of gender to create a narrative of certainty. They are trying to have the illusion that they "know thy enemy" better than the enemy knows themselves. So, they become blinkered and attached. And my issue has never been about the practical techniques. I never once said to abstain from doing what works. People get onto me about that. But it's just that what I'm saying is challenging comforting but false narratives, so the strawman of my perspective is that I'm against what's practical. And they can use that to say to themselves that my that my perspective is nonsense and that I'm out of touch. But it's all about maintaining the comfort of certainty and simplicity that the false narratives give the illusion of providing. That way they can keep looking to what works practically as evidence that they should continue believing their ideological narratives as absolute truth. So, my issue with it is myopia and paradigm lock... and the fact that men get really brainwashed into these narratives to where they aren't open to understanding anything new. And they become wrapped up in their own story so much that they lose sight of what's real and how human dynamics really operate. And this ends up biting them in ways that they don't consciously perceive yet suffer great from.

I do agree with that, but I don't negate the things that Leo's saying about the practicalities of approaching women. It's just the narratives that go along with those practical steps that I have the biggest issue with, because that's where the misrepresentation comes into play. So, I see my perspective as integrating his practical perspective and easily reconciled with it... as long as the false narratives aren't woven around it. I'd probably suggest for men to do similar things practically. I just wouldn't frame it through these skewed narratives. I even talked about the two phases of the relationship myself... attraction phase vs relationship phase.

Describe these experiences.

Sure, there are lots of women who project things onto men as well. And it comes from a dearth of understanding parading itself as a wealth of understanding. But there definitely is a power struggle going on too that's even breaking into mainstream politics. You just might not be experiencing it because you are neither a woman nor the type of man who is trying to take away women's power and agency. It doesn't take much searching around on the internet to find sizable swaths of men who are arguing that women shouldn't have the right to vote... or engaging in narratives that imply that women should be the property of men. It's literally everywhere. And it's really scary to experience as a woman because large groups of stupid people have political power. And it does call for extra layers of discrimination with regard to male friends and partners. That said, there are lots of narratives that crop up that try to naturalize things that say "Oppression and violence are part of men's nature." And when that type of thing is believed, it gets in the way of opening up to friendships and relationships with men.. most of whom are just looking for the same kinds of things that all human beings are looking for.

I'm not specifically responding to anything he said here on this post prior to our conversation about misrepresentation of women's perspectives. I've just been on this forum on-and-off for the past 8 years or so. So, I know his perspectives about this topic, and I can see that he's quite attached to them. And it tends towards an over-simplification that comes from his time learning pick up a decade or so ago. And women call him out frequently for the over-simplification and misrepresentation. But I just makes him dig his heals in further. Consider this... If there was a world full of women that were saying things about men's way of operating that you knew weren't painting an accurate picture, you'd also try to correct the record. And if those same women had the idea "Men are deluded on this topic. Don't listen to them." You'd also be frustrated because they'd be shut off to hearing about what's actually true. And you might not want to get involved romantically with women who operate off of this framework because they won't be able to see you... and it would be an impediment to intimacy... as they believe they already understand you better than you understand yourself. And there is nothing you can say to convince them otherwise. So, the only option is to fruitless fight to be seen and hear... or just disengage and find another woman who isn't so bogged down in these narratives. That's the issue with the attachment to these frameworks. They feel like a solution to the problem of interacting with women... but they're actually an impediment.

Narratives like the one the OP was talking about are largely archetypal narratives that represent a man's relationship to the his Anima (the Feminine side). So, a lot of these devouring dominating pedestalled woman narratives have always been alive in the male psyche as a representation of his resistance to his Feminine side and desire for integration with his Feminine side all in one. This has largely been as a result of societal adaptations that cause men to have to go into opposition to their own Feminine side... which has been necessary up until very recently in human history. And all of this resistance and disintegration with the Feminine gets projected out onto the romantic connections with women. So, it looks like a dating issue... but is really more about the internal. And 10 years ago, things broke open in terms of online Manosphere groups that utilize and amplify these narratives... so now they are coming into the light of consciousness when they've been more of a private inner torment in millennia past. And it's good that this collective Shadow is coming into the light of consciousness. But it's also got a lot of problematic manifestations that are corralling lots of vulnerable young guys into these narratives that make it harder for them to have functional relationships with women. It's kind of like how horror movies have interacted with our natural instinct toward fear. The fear of the dark had always been there for millennia. But now we have cinema monsters to project into the darkness. And the narratives that manosphere influencers create do the same thing as the horror movies. They put a clearer form to an ancient archetypal inner struggle. So, with the internet and the coalescence of men who deal with similar struggles, there's an amplification of what always was but was grappled with privately. And with Leo, it's a mixture of facts and narrative. And the narrative parts are still about the struggle with the inner and outer Feminine. So, there is a desire to protect one's self from the Anima by being able to reduce it down through a series of easily understandable reductive viewpoints and projections of certainty. And this is why there is a myopia and an attachment to one single lens. But in general, these narratives are either wound-tonguing narratives that are designed to trigger and aggravate the inner struggles. (like the narrative the OP was responding to) Or they're compensatory narratives to give a sense of power and control over the inner struggle. (like Leo's tendency to simplify things down to gain a sense of knowing and expertise... and that he's tamed the beast of uncertainty)

That's the thing. There's a stuckness and unwillingness to learn and go deeper on this topic. So, all the narratives are over-simplified and seem to create bigger problems than what they solve. But I'm sure that if Leo and I went down a list about it, I'd agree with certain things. I'm not in resistance to any given insight from him. And I probably operate off of many of the same understandings. It's more about the overt stuckness and unwillingness to question his assumptions about things and open up to new knowledge. It's a protective stance that's specifically against hearing viewpoints that might open him up to more uncertainty in this field. And he doesn't see the value that these perspectives from women can bring to men who are caught up in scary and false narratives about women's nature.

Leo does. That was addressed to him. I haven't read your posts.

I'm not explaining attraction at all in this thread. I have not spoken one single word about what women are attracted to at all. And I have not said "Be more emotionally intelligent to attract women." That's your straw man. Some women will be attracted to that and others won't. What I'm saying is that there's a problem with using myopic over-simplified narratives to understand female sexuality as it creates paradigm lock. And projections from that paradigm lock creates problems with women down the line that feel right now like solutions. And it blocks men from actually gaining wisdom in this area of life because the cup is already full and nothing more can be poured into it. And as a woman, I can see how it's practical but also leading to false conjectures... that lead to worse relationships with women down the line. And I'm adamant about this because I've seen these skewed narratives floating around for a decade, and they are doing more harm than good by a mile.

The post from the OP isn't really about struggling to get a girlfriend. That's just a symptom. So, that kind of advice won't be very helpful to the OP in this instance. This issue is that every single thread on this subform becomes about how to attract women because "When all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail." But that doesn't seem to be the OP's problem as he already said women are interested in him when he pulls away more than when he's available. So presumably, he is having these push/pull experiences in his dating life. And part of it seems like he might be anxious and attracting and being attracted to more avoidant partners. So, attracting women isn't the real problem he's dealing with. The post is actually about the OP fearing that he will never truly be loved by a woman for who he is... and that bad boys are the only one who get loved by women. So, my advice to the OP would be to explore what would be so bad about if it were true that women only get into relationships to emasculate men and that women only like bad boys. And that will reveal to him the origin points of his own fears that are getting transferred out onto these false narratives. And it would help him learn more about himself and turn inward towards the root cause of the feelings of fear, shame, and disconnection... instead of looking outward to scary manosphere narratives about women that predatory grifters come up with to manipulate men (and as a side note, the grifters cement their predatory narratives by conveniently saying women can't provide any valuable counter-argument to such claims because women are deluded about their own desires.) So, my advice to him would be to recognize that he doesn't know how women are operating and that in the dearth of knowledge, women are becoming a convenient projection screen for these wounds and narratives to be projected upon. And to turn inwards towards his real fears.