Emerald

Why do you believe that I'm so different from other women? I am not different than most women in this way. The average woman will agree with me and react similarly to such things.

The fish and shark analogy doesn't work for what you're trying to say... because sharks are fish too. And plenty of non-shark fish eat other fish and they are not imitating sharks. And no, Masculine and Feminine is not defined by our survival deficits... and they're not defined by the absence of certain qualities of the opposite polarity. The Masculine and Feminine is about what is there... and not about what's not there. And Masculine and Feminine is immutable. You can't add it or take it away because it just is the building blocks of your personality. So, these are subtle polar energies that co-mingle together to make up the human personality... and everything else in the known universe. It's Yin and Yang. And I know that this dynamic doesn't work because that's just not how human relationships function over the long term. It's not sustainable and no intimacy is possible unless there is a foundation of human-to-human sameness and friendship for the polar dynamics to exist within. Polarity is the spice... sameness is the foundation. And friendship and a recognition of basic human sameness is not possible if one partner is operating like the other partner's parent. But I'm not saying that highly Feminine woman is not healthy to date. There are plenty of very Feminine women who are integrated and mature. The same is true that there are plenty of very Masculine men who are integrated and mature. So, integration isn't about making everyone more androgynous than they actually are. Everyone has a unique Masculine/Feminine signature. And it's about embracing all of what's there.... instead of repressing parts of what's there in favor of jamming one's self into a narrow category. What I'm saying isn't that naturally Masculine or naturally Feminine men and women respectively aren't mature. What I am saying is that people who polarize and repress the opposite energy end up stunting themselves... and that leads to under-development and immaturity. And immaturity can happen whether a person is androgynous or non-androgynous... just like integration is possible for the androgynous and non-androgynous alike. Different people have different Masculine/Feminine signatures. To give an imperfect picture, I'll put numbers on it. The average person is like 75% towards the polarity that corresponds with their sex... and 25% towards the opposite polarity. That's probably what my signature is... 75% Feminine, 25% Masculine. But people are all over the spectrum. And probably only about 10% of people or so are 90% towards the polarity that corresponds with their sex. It's fairly uncommon for someone to have such a naturally polar Masculine/Feminine signature. But yes, seeing women as children that you need to help her manage her emotions is looking down on her. And unless she herself is underdeveloped and non-integrated, she will not be interested in a man who sees her that way.

The framework that I use for the Masculine and Feminine more generally is more archetypal and reflective of Yin and Yang. And you can notice subtle difference in men and women generally as it comes to these qualities. It's just that people like to exaggerate these differences because we respond sexually to super-normal stimuli around the more subtle sexual dimorphism of our species. We can see it in the way that some cartoonists depict cartoon characters... with an unrealistic exaggerated distinction between male and female characters. But that's not reflective of what's actually true as we are not 2-d characters. All human beings are 95%+ similar to one another. But we're very attuned to subtle differences, so we only focus on the 5% that's different. So, we like to think of men and women as very different, when we're 95% the same. And we want people to fit neatly in little Masculine and Feminine boxes.. but we don't. And those who expect themselves to will often feel shame. But these categories are valuable in that they show us where our resistances are. But they're incredibly unhelpful if we try to shove ourselves into either box... and doubly so if those boxes are more based in social constructs than in Yin/Yang. But in terms of Masculine/Feminine relationship dynamics, the key to understand is that they're subtle and the differences are only meaningful because we are so much the same. And these dynamics arise naturally without need for performance or orchestration... and without getting the mind too much involved. When you're trying to orchestrate it, you've already lost the real thing. And you're just play-acting. It really only arises in a meaningful way that strikes a deeper chord when you find it on the inside instead of an idea put on from the outside.

I think this viewpoint that a lot of the guys share on this forum (including Leo) comes from a lack of Feminine integration... and emotional stunting and lack of real relationship experiences with women that arises as a result of that stunting. It's juvenile Masculinity in a nutshell. Men who think this way about women just wouldn't be able to have a really deep mature relationship with women beyond the bag of tricks for attracting a woman during pickup. So, the ability to actually operate in a more human-to-human way with women is blocked off in favor of more simplistic user-friendly understandings where they can feel more in control. It tends to be more often that men who have had real longterm relationships with women tend to value a mature equal partner (though of course, there are plenty of exceptions... as immature men and women can also get together and stay together codependently). But the ability to relate to women in a mature way is often what enables men to establish longterm relationships with women in the first place. And men who cannot do that and who don't have a good relationship with their Feminine side, will stay alone theorizing and crunching the logical numbers of how to "play the female instrument" and maintain control so as to avoid being hurt. And minimizing women and seeing women as childish... and going for under-developed immature women that need someone else to regulate her emotions for her is just another way of trying to avoid feeling out of control and getting hurt.

You're saying a different thing to what Leo was saying. So, you're moving the goal posts. Sure, men are generally better equipped for things that require physical strength if that's what you're saying. But that isn't what Leo was saying, and it's not the point that I was arguing against. Leo was saying that you have to emotionally manipulate women and treat them like children. And he was saying that Feminine women are bad at survival and are irresponsible for their own emotions. And that the more responsible a woman is for her own survival and her own emotions the more Masculine and unattractive she is. That's the thing that I'm arguing against because it's not a tenable view to hold to have a deep intimate male/female relationship. I'm not arguing against the idea that men are generally stronger than women physically and might be more suited to physically taxing work. Nor am I arguing that women generally don't like to feel taken care of by their male partners. Generally, women do like to feel like the beloved and be treated as such. It's just the mindset that I mentioned above that I'm arguing against, because it's an unsustainable foundation for a relationship.

@integral I'm not saying people have to be hermaphrodites to be healthy... though over-attachment to one or the other polarity creates repression, so that isn't healthy. I'm a mostly Feminine woman myself, and I like to play at more traditional dynamics to some degree. But these exaggeratedly polarized ideas just don't fit with how human beings function. Masculine and Feminine dynamics are subtle when they work well. And they don't need to be orchestrated. Otherwise, it's just confining... and it makes people lose sight of the commonality. And that's where intimacy is lost.

I see. So, the issue is not really about you being picky, persay. Nor is it as case of feeling scarcity relative to relationships. So, you fall in neither of the categories I was mentioning before. So, the advice I gave to the other person would not fit you... as it's intended more towards guys that feel like they have to take whatever dating opportunities they can get. It's more of a sense of feeling scarcity relative to money... and deciding to forego realtionships until you get financially stable. That's a perfectly fine decision to make... as long as your expectations are realistic. Like if you want to be making enough to afford to live before getting into a relationship, that feels like a realistic expectation. But if you feel you need to be a millionaire before you can have a relationship, that would warrant some more exploration... as you may be using finances as a way to avoid relationship or feeling like you have to have some secondary boon for a woman to like you. (Those are just some examples, not saying that specifically describes you)

100% It really reduces the Feminine down to something very narrow... because that makes the Feminine feel less threatening.

It actually goes right along with my point. My point is that if you shift your mindset to one of abundance rather than one of scarcity, you can be more selective and have what you want without having to worry about "Do they like me?" Instead, you can ask yourself "Do I like them?" The same is true with people calling you picky. Who cares what other people call you? Just do what feels right to you. You don't have to fit other people's expectations of you because you have options. Now, since it's your friends calling you picky... you can question whether their perspective is reflective of some avoidant tendency they notice in you or if they're just not selective enough. If it's the former, you can consider if there's any validity to that perspective. But there is nothing wrong with being selective... as long as you're being realistic in your expectations and it doesn't prevent you from having a relationship. If it does, you might consider your friends' advice... as that's the other negative side of the spectrum relative to the person who has no standards at all.

Why do you care what someone else calls you? Just do what feels right to you.

Why is that the lesson?

Yeah, I feel like there's so much about living life as a woman that you really have to live in to experience... and you have to live it for a good long while too. And the longer you live it, the more you get it. And most of the guys giving advice haven't even had a mature longterm relationship with a woman or gone past the initial attraction phase of the relationship. And most haven't even integrated their own Feminine side, yet want to grand-stand as experts on the Feminine. But it's totally unearned because they just don't know any better. So, this advice comes from a place of confident ignorance of not knowing how to do anything else but how to theoretically attract a woman... and not even caring to know more than that. It just gets very stuck in the mud at step one of courtship before anything that's really interesting and deep can actually happen. And it often takes a relative truth about what women like and flanderizes it until it's not realistic or human at all. For example, it is true that a lot of women like to feel taken care of by their partner. But saying "You need to treat women like a child" and saying that women lose attractiveness if they are responsible and good at surviving.... just distorts these subtle relationship dynamics into something garish and tacky... and unlivable and stifling for human beings. And this loss of subtlety takes all the beauty out of Masculine and Feminine polarity... and turns it into a stifling, life-denying existence for the man and woman alike. I sense that this flanderizaton tendency comes from both a lack of lived experience... and a desire to control and repress their own Feminine side and to gain control over the Feminine in general to strip the Feminine of its power. Lots of these guys feel quite powerless in the face of the Feminine. So, there is a desire to minimize it and shrink it down to something that can fit comfortably in their pockets. And that means taking something real, subtle, and nuanced... and turning it into something artificial, obvious, and simple.

That seems like a much healthier relationship with masturbation than no fap. I think there's far too much stigma and shame applied to men masturbating... in the media and in society in general. So, when I've had male clients come to me in the past for help with better habits (with no fap often among them)... I notice that a lot of that comes from sexual shame and an attempt to control the body. Honestly, without a partner, masturbation seems like the best option to meet those needs. Porn can be unhealthy though, because of how it trains the mind to view sex and the meanings attached to sex. But moderation is key.

We live on a planet with 8 billion people. So, that's definitely a mindset thing. And you can change that mindset if you want to so that you don't give "scraping the bottom of the pot" vibes. You would also just need to be more social in general to make this mindset shift. And if you do make that shift, more women will see you as a higher quality guy who isn't desperate and has standards.

100% I am a woman. Stop assuming you understand this subject without experiencing it.

Yes, people are naturally multi-faceted in that way. Yin and Yang exists in all of us. And mature, well-integrated people will allow themselves to connect with all parts of themselves.

I like to have a subtle containment dynamic in my relationships myself, so I am familiar with the concept. My preferred relationship dynamic is 95% eye-to-eye ordinary human-to-human intimacy... and 5% playing at more traditional polarities for spice. But what Leo is describing isn't that. He is saying to treat a woman like a child... and that the man has to stand in as the responsible one because Feminine women are irresponsible. And if a woman is responsible, then she is Masculine and unattractive. The whole dynamic describes what happens between unintegrated men and women as the ideal, where one expects the other to act as their repressed part... and to "complete them". And no intimacy is possible from that standpoint as it requires for the woman to remain in an un-individuated state to maintain pure Femininity and therefore attractiveness. And the man must remain purely in a repressed relationship with his Feminine to relegate the Feminine to the status of child. This is not a natural state for humans to be in... because we are all 3-dimensional beings with many shades of Masculinity and Femininity playing through us... just as Yin and Yang can be found in all living and non-living systems. So, to suggest such a strong polarization is just a reflection of someone who is not very well-integrated themselves and is repressing their own Feminine side. Polarity attracts.... and similarity connects. The former is just the frosting on the cake of the latter which wears off as men and women age and mature.

There are women who are like that... but a lot of women (probably most) are not. But it's just a matter of having standards and sorting flaky women from consideration. (Side note: Having standards will also make you more attractive as well.) The real issue you have here is a sense of scarcity where you feel like you have to settle for flaky women instead of finding a woman who isn't flaky. There are plenty of flaky guys, and that behavior gives me "the ick" because it indicates to me that he's probably not got his life together. So, I wouldn't consider that guy for anything beyond friendship as it doesn't match what I want in my life. I say this as someone whose first serious boyfriend (when I was a teenager) was super flaky and eratic. So, it's a dealbreaker for me. You just have to recognize that you are not scarce in options (even though women aren't as ostentatious about their attractions, so it may seem so). Then, you can have standards and sort properly so that you don't have to even learn to deal with flaky women. It's like if a woman was asking me "How do I deal with fuck boys?" I'd just tell her "Don't deal with fuck boys." Sure, there are a lot of them... but most guys are not fuck boys. You can tell right away when a guy is or isn't. So, find one that isn't... and find one that you enjoy spending time with. Just have some standards and sort them from consideration.

That's okay, if that's really what you want. But I can tell you that you can experience more than that... as that's a very limited frame you have on human relationships. This whole thing sounds like a Pygmalion/Galatea dynamic... as is what typically happens when a guy isn't integrated with his Feminine side. You should look into Anima integration. I think it would help you grow and to connect more with your humanity and feel more of a sense of belonging with people, with nature, and in the universe more generally. And if you have issues with your body... it would also help you have a more harmonious relationship with your physical form as the Feminine side is about embracing the 3-D world. And it would also open you up to connecting with a woman that you feel more intimacy and kinship with... if that's something you want. But this relationship dynamic you're describing sounds really under-developed and boring. And no real intimacy would be possible... as it requires a huge power imbalance to make it work and would require the woman to forego individuation and the curiosities of life. And that isn't a natural state for humans to be in as time and experience are accrued... whether survival is a huge factor or not. So, she'd have to really keep herself stuffed into a small mold. And for what? Just to attract a guy who has a really stunted relationship with his Feminine side that she can never have real human intimacy with. And if she doesn't struggle with polarization, why would she want to shove herself into that mold when there are better options available for her? Nothing real and human can occur if there's such an extreme imbalance. And this framework cannot lead to a secure healthy relationship. But it's no wonder why you choose to be alone as you'd basically be acting as your partner's parent. I would probably isolate myself if I saw the world that way... whether I was male or female. If I was male, I'd be dreadfully bored with my partner and be incredibly resentful for them not behaving like an adult. And if I were female, I'd feel like my agency was being stolen and that I wouldn't be able to fully bloom and have my partner appreciating my blooming. Here's a video about integrating the Feminine if you'd like to check it out...

@Leo Gura You seem to believe that your cynical views on human relationships is reflective of truth. But if you really care about what's true like you say you do, you'd be wise to question whether that's the reality or whether it is just a smudge on your own glasses.

Yep. All it takes is a "charismatic" leader to push the envelope of what's normalized in political speech... and boom! The demagoguery ignites half of the populace who was secretly doused in kerosene from the beginning. And it both plants and waters the dormant seeds of the Fascist impulse by giving people permission to blame previously taboo scapegoats for their own shortcomings... which is a huge relief for those who have a tendency to want to play the victim and externalize a strong villain to play victim in relationship to... and a weak villain to play hero in relationship to.

I don't think so, even though it feels like it. It's truly just a more accurate reflection of where we truly are (and have been) as a society. And when that veneer of a more complete collective progression past Fascist tendencies slipped off... the truth about our primitive brutal ways came to the light of consciousness and surprised many who thought we were further along.

I would be worried if I lived in a blue state as well, as I think there's a major possibility of federal funding being cut from a variety of places. And of course, he would probably target the usual people that Fascists target... women, people with disabilities, poor and working class people, the LGBTQ community, religious minorities, and political dissidents of any kind.

You're welcome!

They will definitely get a taste of Trump. And it will be most people who are negatively impacted in some shape or form.