Emerald

I suppose that makes sense, because the societies form which the conquesters stemmed from were deeply Blue and were spurred on by the monarchies of the time. And the drive toward land expansion is certainly very Orange. Plus, they mostly went for gold, God, and glory... so two Oranges and one Blue. Perhaps it could be said, however, that the individual conquesters were probably a mix of Red, Blue, and Orange as seen in their methods and motivations for taking over new lands.

Thank you! Yes. It's a Buddhist story based upon the Hindu God Indra.

Part of undoing racism is noticing whenever racist tendencies come up in ourselves. So, if I was of the belief, "I'm so enlightened that I'm past even noticing or caring about race.", then I would be bald-face lying to myself to avoid having to face with my own implicit biases and level of participation in systemic racism. There are a ton of people (mostly white people) deluding themselves into believing they are color blind and don't care about race at all. But you'll notice that when the topic comes up they get very emotional and defensive to hide their shadow from themselves. And they will argue with you tooth and nail just to prove to themselves and others that systemic racism isn't something that they could fall victim to. Counterintuitively, a person who notices how deeply they are afflicted by the system of racism and the effects it has on their emotions, behavior, and daily life are far less likely to participate in the perpetuation of systemic racism. When one relegates their own racial biases to their shadow and ignores them, they don't just go away. They sneak into the driver's seat and take the wheel when they're in the blindspots of our own worldview. This is the way the shadow works. So, instead of running the "I'm not racist" loop over and over in our heads, it is best to get our ego out of the equation and really brutally honestly question that notion and consider that maybe we have been affected by systemic racism and its patterns and are actually participating in maintaining that system. Part of becoming more conscious is being able to consider whether or not we're currently unconscious.

That depends upon whether we consider colonialism a stage Orange or stage Red phenomenon. If we consider it Orange, then you could say that racism stems from stage Orange, because prior to that there was little to no interaction between those of other races. But if we think of colonialism as stage Red, which feels more apt to me because of the warlord-like nature of the conquesters of the time as well as the blood-shed and direct domineering influence of those seeking to take over new lands, then we could say that Red is the primary intonation of racism, Blue the secondary, and Orange the tertiary... and even with Green having some residual racism; with each stage reflecting a decrease in intensity and bloodshed from the previous. What are your thoughts on this?

I could see the idea of a fractal being applicable in this sense of how patterns reflect through reality. My channel is called the Diamond Net, based upon the Diamond Net of Indra. The idea is that reality is an infinite net that stretches out in infinite dimensions. And at each of the vertices of the net lies a jewel. And in that jewel reflects all the other jewels in the net, which also reflect all the other jewels in the net, ad infinitum. So, you could say that reality is both the one jewel, and that in that one jewel contains all the other jewels in the net which are infinite. So, the idea is very fractal-like as well.

I totally agree. It's always interesting to me how two totally different systems tend to reflect similar patterns. I started realizing this when I learned how to paint. I realized a lot of metaphors about reality that way. And I never would have guessed so many patterns echo through reality that way.

Also, I forgot to add before, white defaultism isn't really part of my shadow for the most part, but it used to be before I became conscious of it. I have integrated the awareness that I have been affected by notions of white defaultism. So, I notice when I fall into that pattern and can quickly get up out of it. Things you are aware of at not part of your shadow anymore. Now, that's not to say that I'm always perfectly conscious 100% of the time. I slip into unconsciousness and end up running the social scripts sometimes before I realize it. Understand that the only reason why I know that white defaultism exists is because I've noticed how this pattern has affected me and the way I think about the world, others, and myself as a white person. I am not regurgitating any talking points here. I'm telling you what I've directly observed in myself, and the patterns that I notice in myself that others also fall into. And I can also see the implications of those patterns on how society works in general. All you have to do is let go of preconceived notions and perceive what is there and has always been there in front of you.

This is why I make a point to state that the system of racism is mostly an invisible hand issue, that stems from the workings of the system as opposed to direct malicious intent. So, unconsciousness itself is the primary enemy, not individuals. But I do believe in being as frank and direct as possible for the sake of understanding and optimization of nuance in that understanding. And I don't like to sugar coat anything, as it is not necessary and tends to coddle and muddy the waters. The social system is very impersonal anyway, so just being accurate won't make anyone feel implicated or demonized... unless they were going to project that anyway no matter what anyone has to say on the matter that they disagree with. The way I see it is that if I am as perceptive, thorough, and honest as possible then the people who are the least emotionally attached to their current paradigm will be able to have an "aha!" moment and be able to have more clarity around this situation. People who are very emotionally attached to their perspective are unlikely to change no matter what, unless they share the value of becoming more conscious. So, the way I see it is that I'm very unlikely to make those that are triggered emotionally by this topic budge at all. But there are a ton of people who aren't triggered emotionally who will be able to recognize these patterns if I lay them out accurately and thoroughly, as their emotional attachments won't stand in the way of their perception.

My impression of @Leo Gura statement (correct me if I'm wrong), is that he probably sees this issue as something that will always lead to pointless squabbling and going around in circles, as opposed to lending to actual positive results. That's normally how these topics go on the forum. And Leo usually shuts down topics like this because people end up falling back on the same unconscious talking points. My impression of what you believe Leo is doing, is that he's taking a more Turquoise detached approach to the issue and kind of trusting that the system will work out without our intervention. Or perhaps, that the world is Maya and that it's pointless to be invested in matters of illusion and duality. But I don't believe this is why Leo made that statement... as I think he was focused more in a down-to-Earth way. My impression is that Leo sees the need for raising consciousness in society and is interested in systems thinking and social engineering. So, he sees it as a necessity that society evolves up to Green. But that he just doesn't trust that these discussions will produce fruitful results toward that end because a lot of JP fans and people in general just end up going around in circles and playing mental gymnastics. So, it seems that he doubts the efficacy of these sorts of discussions. If this is his viewpoint, I personally disagree with this. I think that showing people issues from different perspectives can make lightbulbs go off. And even if the person I'm talking to won't get it, others passing by will. And this will help toward creating the social shift. But this is just my impression. I could be wrong.

How do you think we should address these systemic issues if not by raising awareness about them in relatable ways?

To explain to you, let me bring up my points from earlier about white defaultism that you left on the table to focus on my smaller and more ambiguous point about the color of band-aids... "This is also reflected in the terms that we use to describe Americans who are of different races. Black people are called African Americans, and this is true no matter how long their family has resided in the United States. The black family and their ancestors could have been living in the United States for 400 years, but they are still called African American. Meanwhile, we don't refer to white people as European American. And even if a white person's parents came from Europe, if that white person was born in the United States then they will just be referred to as an American. So, white people don't get a signifier like all other races and ethnicities, which also is a reflection of white defaultism. And all minorities that live in the states get signifiers that suggest they are variations upon the white default. Even Native Americans, have the signifier of being "Native" as the qualifier upon being American, despite the fact that they have the most right to just be called American. Then, if someone says, a person walked into a bar, the image that comes to mind is usually a picture of a white man walking into a bar, as person as an idea = white person. And this is an implicit bias that we get inundated with from a very early age because of cultural understandings and representation in the media. So, it takes a lot of awareness of this issue to not project this white defaultism onto reality, as it is such a cultural and psychological groove that enforces a lot of harmful mindsets around race and belonging. So, it even branches out and has many other effects on how people interact with and perceive people of color. Also, to be white and seen as default has the effect of coming off as "race neutral" to most people. So, white people get the benefit of not having people react to their race very often, as it is seen as the norm and blends into the background. So, white people get significantly fewer uncomfortable reactions to their race, where people of color would have to take other's reaction to their race into consideration really often. Also, being race neutral creates a comfort zone of racelessness in white people's minds. So, white people tend to become really sensitive and avoidant of matters that deal with race. White people tend to get upset and uncomfortable when they're in a situation that their race becomes a focus because they're not used to it. And that anxiety tends to get projected onto people of color, so people of color have to carefully navigate the waters in discussions about race with white people. And white people tend to not listen to grievances relative to race because they feel blamed and put on the spot. And they often have world-views that minimise the focus on race in general. So, it is difficult for people in minority groups to get people in the majority group to listen because of the majority group not being used to having attention drawn to their race and having anxieties and guilt around racial issues being brought up."

So, you're saying that using the cancer metaphor is a poor metaphor to use because of people's negative association with cancer? So, it would make people feel like I'm calling them a cancer and blaming them for these issues, when it is an invisible hand issue? So, it would turn more people off, even if it's an apt metaphor? Perhaps this is the case. But all the same, I can't think of a clearer metaphor than an illness. What causes problems that has symptoms and root causes that is more straight forward than an illness? So, unfortunately, this is the best metaphor for this issue. If you can think of a better one to talk about this 'problem/symptoms/root' dynamic in relatable ways that don't imply an illness, then I'll be more than happy to hear your suggestions. But I can't think of anything more understandable and relatable than that.

It's a possibility that this is the case. But even so, it doesn't take away the fact that there is a white default that is assumed in society at large. So, bandaid color could be a direct reflection of that... or it could just be a coincidence. But either way, the systemic force of white defaultism still stands. And that ambiguity that's created from the organic nature of the system where certain non-symptoms could be read as symptoms, is part of how that system runs as well. That's why I said before, that focusing toward symptoms as opposed to root causes can be a fruitless effort and a wild goose chase. So, it's important to avoid missing the forest for the trees, by focusing too much on individual symptoms that come from the system as opposed to the system as a whole as the core pattern that those symptoms stem from.

Great analogy. In fact, this analogy could be applied to all things within the personal and collective shadow and how they remain unconscious.

I suppose it could. But only if you feel like you're fairly immune to peer pressure and feel comfortable with pushing back on the status quo of the institution as a whole over a sustained period of time. All the while, remaining and appealing person for other people to aspire to. So, if you think you can do this, you can effect things in small positive ways from within that system of being in the reserves.

I think cancer is an apt metaphor. Cancer itself has no malicious intent, but it has an extremely debilitating effects. Cancer is an invisible hand issue, that you can't really blame anyone for. It just happens as a result of many different systems working together in a way that produces dysfunction. This is a lot like racism. Even though racism does sometimes have malicious intent... most of the time the workings of the system go completely un-noticed. And most people who support and maintain this system do so because they don't know that they're doing it. So, cancer grows when cells continue to expand and grow beyond what they're supposed to. But the body registers the abnormal growth as normal. This is a lot like the system of racism. So much of what causes racism is seen as normal by society at large. Due to lack of systemic thinking and consciousness in general, they don't see any issue with things that actually have a huge effect on the social system. So, we are not at a point where we can transcend issues of race altogether. Society isn't there yet, and people are still being affected negatively by it. And to, as an individual, flip into that detached perspective and "transcend" the issue, is simply to ignore what's going on and pretend that these systemic issues don't exist and to insulate ourselves from our own participation in those systems and those systems' impact upon our psyche and behaviors. Modern times, call for a Yellow-Green perspective to percolate through society relative to racism. So, trying to jump to a more transcendent perspective is just bypassing.

I think that all peoples are equally capable and pre-disposed to bigotry. So, there is nothing special about certain races that make them more or less bigoted than other races. And bigotry is not nice no matter who does it and who it's done to. That said, focusing on this issue at the level of overt bigotry that individuals have is not effective. And focusing on this issue at the level of hurt feelings about bigotry is also not effective. Instead, it's important to focus on the issue of racism at the level of systems and thinking about that issue as a largely "invisible hand" issue that comes about from a bunch of different factors working together in idiosyncratic ways, as opposed to being purely the result of malicious intent put forth by flawed individuals. So, on the level of systems, there is no overarching pattern that disenfranchises white people in the same way that it disenfranchises people of color. The system works to the overall benefit of white people and to the overall vulnerability of non-white people to those systemic forces. So, even though white people are no more pre-disposed to bigotry than anyone else, the system largely works in our favor and we benefit most from the status quo. So, it is most important for white people to become conscious of how this system works, as we have the most power to dismantle it.

That's why I said that bandaids and paint colors are merely a reflection of a much more pervasive pattern. They are very trivial on their own. But what they point to is anything but trivial. So, you could boycott and demonize bandaid companies and paint companies and have them stop doing that, but it would do very little to effect the system at large that poses whiteness as default. Now, that's not as to say it would have no effect, as even dismantling something small has some positive effect. But renaming the paint color "nude" to something else isn't going to do much to change the system in a radical way because it won't do much to raise consciousness around systemic forces that enforce white defaultism. We're still remaining in the same paradigm as before. For this, we have to address the issue of racism from its roots, instead of from its symptoms. This is what Green struggles with. They want to address the individual symptoms in hopes of curing the root of the problem. So, they go around obsessing about the color of bandaids and little things like that, but don't pick up on the larger systemic force that gave way to that symptom. So, it's like a person trying to kill a tree by picking its leaves off one at a time, and being surprised when still new leaves grow on the tree.

These are the main aspects of the collective shadow that society at large is on the verge of becoming conscious of in order to make a transition from an Orange paradigm to a Green paradigm (to speak from a Spiral Dynamics perspective). So, the horse is still very much alive. This is why this topic will continue to come up again and again and again and again until collective consciousness has integrated these perspectives. So, if it were truly a dead horse, it wouldn't be absolutely EVERYWHERE. This is the cutting edge of collective consciousness. So, even if it's nowhere near Turquoise, these conversations are important to have to encourage forward momentum.

Like I said above, these are two minor things that are merely a reflection of white defaultism, which is a huge systemic issue. So, despite that band-aids and paint colors on their own would be non-issues, they reflect a much more insidious and pervasive systemic force that has profound effects on the social system relative to race. So, take these as very minor symptoms of a deeper and more serious illness. In the same sense that cancer has some symptoms that don't look that serious on first inspection, it is the same for these minor tells relative to much more deeply ingrained racist patterns.

Think of systemic racism like a huge Rube Goldberg machine, where the ball drops and a flag goes up and that makes dominos topple over which makes a gun shoot which makes even more dominos topple over and a ball go into a cup that tips over and a string is pulled, etc. So, it's a complex and idiosyncratic system that creates a lot of unexpected outcomes. And also, it's important to understand that the vast majority of negative effects toward people of color come from unconsciousness as opposed to direct malicious intent. Now, that's not to say that there aren't people with malicious intent toward people of color. It's just that the majority of racism comes unknowingly from unconscious well-meaning people. But the people with malicious intent know this, and can use those people as pawns to spread their agenda. So, let's take a very small and mundane aspect of the system of racism as an example. Band-aids are made to match white skin tones. The paint color "nude" is also a white skin tone color. Now, these are seemingly relatively innocuous examples. But they are actually a reflection of a much more pervasive systemic issue. Namely, that white is seen as the default race and that all other races are a variation on the white norm. I call this white defaultism. This is also reflected in the terms that we use to describe Americans who are of different races. Black people are called African Americans, and this is true no matter how long their family has resided in the United States. The black family and their ancestors could have been living in the United States for 400 years, but they are still called African American. Meanwhile, we don't refer to white people as European American. And even if a white person's parents came from Europe, if that white person was born in the United States then they will just be referred to as an American. So, white people don't get a signifier like all other races and ethnicities, which also is a reflection of white defaultism. And all minorities that live in the states get signifiers that suggest they are variations upon the white default. Even Native Americans, have the signifier of being "Native" as the qualifier upon being American, despite the fact that they have the most right to just be called American. Then, if someone says, a person walked into a bar, the image that comes to mind is usually a picture of a white man walking into a bar, as person as an idea = white person. And this is an implicit bias that we get inundated with from a very early age because of cultural understandings and representation in the media. So, it takes a lot of awareness of this issue to not project this white defaultism onto reality, as it is such a cultural and psychological groove that enforces a lot of harmful mindsets around race and belonging. So, it even branches out and has many other effects on how people interact with and perceive people of color. Edit: Also, to be white and seen as default has the effect of coming off as "race neutral" to most people. So, white people get the benefit of not having people react to their race very often, as it is seen as the norm and blends into the background. So, white people get significantly fewer uncomfortable reactions to their race, where people of color would have to take other's reaction to their race into consideration really often. Also, being race neutral creates a comfort zone of racelessness in white people's minds. So, white people tend to become really sensitive and avoidant of matters that deal with race. White people tend to get upset and uncomfortable when they're in a situation that their race becomes a focus because they're not used to it. And that anxiety tends to get projected onto people of color, so people of color have to carefully navigate the waters in discussions about race with white people. And white people tend to not listen to grievances relative to race because they feel blamed and put on the spot. And they often have world-views that minimise the focus on race in general. So, it is difficult for people in minority groups to get people in the majority group to listen because of the majority group not being used to having attention drawn to their race and having anxieties and guilt around racial issues being brought up.

This again, seems to neglect the validity of the collectivist perspective and shows a tendency to fall back on the superiority of the individual perspective. While it is true, that a collective system is made up of individuals, there are issues that cannot be solved from the individualist perspective. And to always draw everything back to the individualist perspective invalidates truths that can only be seen from a big picture collectivist perspective. Likewise, someone who's always looking from a collectivist perspective and is attached to that lens will be blind to truths from the individualist perspective. To give an example of why being stuck in an individualist perspective is limited, imagine that there is a forest. You could say that the forest is an illusion because a forest is essentially just a collection of individual trees. And there is technically no forest to be found on the level of trees. It is just a way that human beings conceptualize a grouping of individual trees. That said, if there is a problem within the forest, then you can't necessarily discern the solution to that problem by looking at individual trees without regard to looking at the larger system that is the forest and how the smaller systems react within that larger system. This is the same situation with regards to complex systemic issues like racism, as it isn't necessarily driven on by the intentions of individuals. You have to look at the entire system to discern why things are happening the way they are and what is happening. Only then, can viable solutions come about. And the individualist perspective, is not conducive to the awareness of systemic solutions to these issues as the individualist lens is to reductive to have efficacy in that situation. So, again, it is failure to be multi-perspectival to always default to the individualist perspective as the superior or correct perspective. This kind of thinking leads to myopia and sheds light on the meaning of "missing the forest for the trees."

That's an Orange view on racism. Orange views racism as an individual character flaw and overt bigotry levied by intentional racial supremacists who have certain beliefs, concepts, worldviews, and ideologies on race. So, Orange people tend to think of themselves as not racist, and will be blind to their own implicit biases and contributions to negative patterns within the social system. And if a Green brings up the blindspots the Orange has and tells them they're being complicit in racism, they will get really offended and take it personally as they feel like they've been accused of having a character flaw on the caliber of David Duke. Green, however, views racism as something that exists in collective systems that are maintained by individuals both conscious and unconscious of their implicit biases based upon race. And their solution is to demonize and discourage those maintainers of the status quo of the racism within systems to punish and discourage them from continuing. They are aware of the systemic issues... but they often don't think systemically about the solutions to them. Yellow views racism as something that is a systemic invisible hand issue on both the collectivist and individual levels. So, they think systemically on the individual and collectivist level and see how the two perspectives inform eachother and maintain the system. The difference is in the lack of demonization and understanding that misunderstanding and unconsciousness is the lion's share of the problem. And they will be more focused on raising consciousness then on punishing wrong-doers, as they see how easy it is to succumb to unconsciousness. They want to really understand all the perspectives and workings within the system to address the issue at its core in a real way.

Someone who is an overt and intentional racial supremacist is someone who could benefit from the insight that race is an illusion. This is true that ultimately they are projecting too much meaning onto race as an existential reality that implies some value or lack-there-of onto a particular race. That's why I said before that this truth was helpful when society as a whole were at an earlier point of development where we were less conscious is general and projected a lot more meanings onto race. Understanding that insight really helped us get out from under the most overt forms of institutionalized racism. But in present day, we're dealing with the racism at a deeper and more subtle level that is still mostly in the collective shadow. And it is only people who are in Green and above that will be able to perceive of the existence of more subtle systemic patterns of racism. People in Orange will be largely unconscious to these patterns because they are directly in the blindspot of the Orange worldview. And because Orange values meritocracy, the realization that there are certain systemic riggings within society is very dangerous to Orange's beliefs in the world as being fair and meritocratic. So, thinking of racism as something that comes only from overt racists also tends to reflect the idea of Orange Individualism in thinking of racism as a relatively uncommon character flaw that an individual has. People in Green and Yellow think about racism as a pattern within systems that are best dismantled... which requires a high degree of awareness relative to the subjective experiential truths about race to avoid feeding into (at Green) and avoid feeding into and actively dismantling (at Yellow). Orange doesn't possess this awareness, so it cleaves to its ideas about how individual racists intentionally cause racism... so don't hate anyone and you won't be complicit in racism. Race is an illusion, so we shouldn't pay attention to it anyway. We should strive to be color blind because that means we, as individuals have character. So, it is not able to notice collective "invisible hand" patterns that maintain a status quo based in racial hegemony. So, it doesn't see any practical value in focusing toward the collective perspective.

@Outer I'm trying really hard to explain this to you, but it's not working out too well. I will try one more time. You are still not able to open up and hold space for paradoxes and shake free of the uni-perspectival paradigm that you're currently stuck down in. You will never be able to evolve out of Orange unless you see the validity of Green and release resistance to it. So, when I talk about the subjective, practical, and down-to-Earth perspectives about race as being valid AND the scientific perspective about race being valid at the same time, it doesn't quite make sense to you. You're still in the notion that there is one perspective that is correct (or more correct) and that all other perspectives are invalid. So, you're in an "either/or" mindset about race, instead of in a holistic/integrative perspective on it. So, you try to invalidate the practical perspectives on race as an experiential reality, by cleaving to truths about race that are reductionist, deconstructionist, and detached from the subjective human experience and the emotional reality of being alive. So, when I say that race is a real experiential reality that has practical implications for how individuals are treated and systems run, this is true. When you say that race is an illusion form the scientific perspective that there is no clear delineations between racial groups other than by phenotype, this is also true. So, it is in being able to reconcile the paradox that both of these perspectives, though seemingly contradictory, are true from the standpoint of certain paradigms. But if we are looking to improve the status quo and to remove barriers to consciousness for humanity at large, one of these truths is helpful in aiding awareness and the other is usually used to obscure the truths that are aiding awareness. And this is what you and so many others are doing. So, claiming that race is an illusion is just using the truth to create blindspots that serve the function of keeping you stuck in your current paradigm where you feel safe and secure. In order to become more conscious, you must learn to let go of your attachments to the beliefs that make up the paradigm you currently reside within.