Emerald

Beauty is an important attraction trigger for high quality men too. And you probably see it as the main one because it’s the first and easiest instinct to notice. Even a teenage boy notices this trigger. But a high quality man becomes attracted to a woman based on many triggers as he matures. And physical attraction based on beauty is one just facet of the male attraction instinct. A man with an integrated feminine side, will have a more multifaceted instinctual response to women that goes beyond the surface. You’ll find out when once you get there. ?

The key word here that she’s disagreeing with is “main”. Neither she nor I agree with your argument that it is the ‘main’ attraction trigger for men who are highly conscious. It is definitely an attraction trigger and an important one. And it is the initiatory attraction trigger... as if a man isn’t attracted to a woman, he won’t be interested. But most men can and do get attracted to women around their age. The average age difference in couples is two years. But the same is true to an extent for women. If a man doesn’t hit a certain bar of physical attractiveness, then there is not much he can do to bring himself above. There are some guys you just know you won’t be attracted to. Though women’s bar for looks is usually a couple points underneath her physical attractiveness level. For example, a woman who’s a 6 would go for a 4 with a lot going for him... but definitely not a 3 regardless of what he’s got going for him. So, attraction definitely needs to be there. But it isn’t the main trigger for attraction in a well-developed man... he will have many triggers that need to be there for him to consider a woman for relationship. But attraction will be the first trigger. Sex on the other hand, he will go for just the attraction trigger as long as he feels there isn’t a power imbalance in the situation otherwise. But a man who’s specifically looking for 18-20 year olds for sex who is past the age off 26 is probably looking for an imbalance in power and is having some maturity issues.

@Harlen Kelly Most men will want to sleep with 18-20 year old women. But a high quality man will be concerned more for her well-being than with satisfying his base instincts. A highly conscious man will have his lower age limit at 22 or 23 when a person’s brain stops developing. Anything younger than that is exploitative. But AGAIN, this is a conversation about how women’s taste in men changes as we age. It doesn’t really matter what men generally respond to. When we’re older and looking for a partner, we will filter out men who are only focused toward these surface level things.

No she isn’t arguing against it. She and I are saying the exact same thing. She’s stated that she agrees with you many times. But older women are more selective despite the fact that they have a smaller pool of suitors. The size of the pool of suitors has nothing to do with how selective a woman is. As I’ve said, female bias exists independently from male bias. Fewer men are interested in older women, this is true. But likewise older women are much less likely to accept low quality men compared to when they were younger. So, older women are more selective than younger women. That’s just the way it is. Ask any woman over 30, and she’ll tell you that her standards have gone up since she was in her early 20s... simply because she knows better now what a good man looks like.

I went back and realized that I misunderstood what you said. But I responded to it earlier thinking you were arguing that a conscious man would get in a relationship with an emotionally immature woman. This was the quote... “I addressed your point about a conscious man forming a relationship with an immature but hot young woman on my response to @Etherial Cat.” But I reiterate, why are you arguing with Ethereal Cat and I when we’re not disagreeing with you. Obviously, we know that physical attractiveness and youthful beauty is a trigger for male attraction. That’s a “duh” thing. You’d have to live under a rock not to know that. But when we’re talking about female sexuality and how it changes over time and how tastes in men change with experience (which very few people know about) it gets resisted against. And in ways that make no sense. It really seems like you’re upset that we’re talking about women’s preferences in men, so you feel like you have to argue with or push back against something. And you continue arguing with something that we’re not even disagreeing with.

Neither of us are arguing against that. Attractive women are attractive... of course. And this will be noticed by both men and women and it will trigger that instinct in men (as well as women who are attracted to women.) Everybody knows how this element of male sexuality works. You’d have to live under a rock to not understand that. But again, when we’re talking about what women’s perspective and biases are (which most men aren’t aware of because it’s not as apparent), you are arguing against it by talking about men’s biases and perspective when that’s not really relevant. And while we fully grasp and even explicitly state in all of our responses that we’re fully aware that men are attracted to youth and beauty, you keep arguing against what we’re saying about women’s desires and how women’s tastes in men get more refined as they age. What must be understood is that man who is hyper-focused on the looks-based attraction element of women is a man who is immature and is not a high quality partner. Also, you did argue earlier that a highly conscious man would be in a relationship with an emotionally immature woman because of the attractiveness factor alone. So, you’re changing your argument now. But you’re now (because you’ve moved the goalposts) arguing for something that Ethereal Cat and I don’t disagree with. And that doesn’t make sense.

I’m not denying that youth and attractiveness are universally attractive to men. That’s biologically wired in. The distinction I’m making is that, as a woman gets older her biases filter out men who are hyper-focused toward surface level things. But I am actually far more comfortable now with aging than I was at 20. When I was 20, I would get super freaked out about it because I thought men would cease to be interested in me. But I realize now, at age 32, that men who are 32+ who are specifically looking for a woman who is barely an adult or who are hyper-focused toward beauty as a standard for relationship are low quality partners. You cannot grow with these types of men. And that, a man who becomes interested in me at age 32 is far more likely to want me as more than just arm candy. Spam guys filter themselves a bit more.

Men are universally attracted to youth and beauty. There is no argument there. But a man who is ONLY or PRIMARILY seeking a youthful and beautiful partner regardless of compatibility, capacity for intimacy, and power equivalence IS an undesirable man. Younger women usually aren’t experienced enough to pick up on this an will fall for him because she is seeking a partner that seems mature as a result of his age. But this immaturity will rise quickly. Older women have experienced this dynamic already and see the lameness of these kinds of guys. It’s kind of like how, when you’re a 15 year old girl and your friend is dating a 21 year old guy, you get jealous because he seems so much older and more mature. But then you get a few years older and you’re like, “Oh! That guy was an immature creep.” It’s like that... only without the added creepiness of the girl not being past the age of consent.

But this means that that man is a low quality partner... to younger and older woman alike. So, this type of man is not actually high consciousness. A highly conscious 40 year old man will still find 20 year old women physically attractive... simply because 20 year old women are attractive and because his instincts naturally will fire in response to that beauty. But a highly conscious man has control of his impulses and instincts. He will not let his urges drive him because he has character and discipline. A conscious 40 year old man, will be aware of the power imbalance and exploitative dynamic in a relationship with a 20 year old. He will be concerned for her well-being. And he will prefer a partner who is his match in terms of intellect and stage of life. An immature man, will simply let his instincts drive him toward a younger woman who he has a power imbalance with. This is why this type of man is not high quality as he is immature and flimsy. And older women have dealt with lots of these men. So, she will be able to peg him as an unsuitable partner.

I’m not saying the thread is limited to that. But we were all in a conversation about women’s preferences and biases. And you essentially made the argument “No. Those aren’t women’s preferences and biases because male preferences and biases say otherwise.” That’s why I responded that way. Male perspectives/biases doesn’t really affect women’s perspectives/biases. So, a just because men generally are attracted to younger women. This doesn’t change the fact that women get more selective as they age. And we were talking about the dynamics of the latter fact, and you’re seeking to argue against it with the former fact. You essentially said the male equivalent of, “Yeah but unattractive women prefer this.” Just as you probably aren’t very tuned in to what unattractive women prefer, women as they age and get experience are also not tuned into the way that immature men only look for surface level qualities and may even be exploitative to young women. We will tune our radar to men who we can grow old together with, who see women as whole people who will continue to age. And who will prefer this depth of companionship to trading us in for a new model every decade.

I know who you were responding to. You weren’t understanding her point, so I clarified.

No, we’re not confusing how we get attracted to men with how men get attracted to women. We’re talking about how older women get attracted to men. That’s what the post is about. It isn’t about general male preference. It’s about the type of man that older women find suitable of time and attention and how much more chaff she will know to sort once she actually knows what wheat looks like. This is about our biases, not yours. While all men will be attracted to youth and beauty, high quality men will not feel compelled to seek relationship purely on this basis. He will be concerned for the well-being of much younger women who just came of age, even if he recognizes their attractiveness. A high quality and mature man will be concerned with far more than sexual attraction. His relationship choices will be based on a desire to have intimacy, go deep, and find long term companionship. That’s what a high quality man is to all women, young and old. It’s just that very young women usually haven’t discovered this yet and usually won’t until their late 20s or so.

Yes, older women are generally less attractive to men. But women still become more selective as they age as they get clearer on what they need in a relationship to feel fulfilled. But your top 10% idea and who fits into that 10% usually doesn’t resonate with women. That’s more of what men think is positive based on their own biases and not what is actually fulfilling for women... which is a man who is emotionally mature and stable. And keep in mind that older women have all been younger women before. They know how a woman’s youth and beauty are often sought after in exploitative ways by low quality men. They have many experiences with this to draw upon. So, they have a keener system for filtering these men out, and they also attract fewer of these men. Also, men who solely seek out much younger women are just not high quality men. They’re usually just looking for sex or arm candy. If a man is 35 and seeking out 20 year olds to sleep with, he’s a liability. If a man is unable to feel love and attraction to a woman as she ages, then he is not good husband material. And the woman with such a man will always be replaced by a younger model. This is why it’s a bit more difficult for older women to find a partner. Most mature men are already taken because they married young. And the bachelor-for-life types are low quality. So, slimmer pickings because most ACTUAL high quality men are already taken but also higher selectivity because they know what they want/need and they know what a high quality man actually looks like. And an unwillingness to get with low quality fuck boys because they can’t give her what she needs. And it can be a dilemma. But it’s not really a dilemma for her that ‘Oh no! fuck boys are slightly less interested in having one-night stands with me.’ It’s more the dilemma of ‘Jeez. There are no decent single men my age.’

That’s just not true. Women learn a lot about men in their first decade of adulthood that they don’t realize when they’re young. And they grow disenchanted with just any guy because the chad/sexual conquester type of guy doesn’t fulfill what women are really looking for, which is intimacy and love. It often takes women a while to understand the difference between a high quality partner and a low quality partner. And this lesson is often learned the hard way. So, even though younger women are sought after more often than older women, they tend to have much lower standards than older women who actually know what they want/need and have been around the block a time or two. But men often project less openness and more pickiness onto younger women because they represent a cultural ideal of feminine beauty and are an ideal projection screen for male insecurity. So, a man might feel that the younger woman is pickier simply because he feels intimidated by her. But this is a feeling not an objective truth. The more learned a woman becomes, the more selective she becomes. I gave chances to men at age 20 that I wouldn’t touch with a ten foot pole now at age 32. And my taste at 16 was even worse.

Actually women tend to get more selective as they get older. Young women generally have much lower standards for what they’ll accept in a partner. They tend to have less of a grasp on their boundaries. This is why they end up falling for low quality guys. But what you call a “beta male provider” is also what I call a higher quality man. That’s a man who has his life together who is good husband material. A man you can actually connect to. So, what you see as a lowering of standards, women see as a raising of standards. The older women get, the more they tend to become disenchanted with unreliable and flighty men. It’s novel when you’re 16-20 but very blah after that.

Doing some Active Imagination again, I see. Very interesting.

Thank you and you're welcome!

It's very specific. You pick up on this particular guy's energy and vibe and gestures and flaws. And that all adds up to more than the sum of his parts. I remember in the 7th grade, I had a huge crush on this kid Billy. And he had a really wide squarish head. Something that would definitely be regarded generally as unattractive. My friend Joe used to call him fat head. But every time I'd see him from the back, I'd notice that particularity about him and just feel all kinds of fireworks. And it was little things like that were attractive because they were part of him, but were not attractive in general. And this has always been the case for me. It's always the feelings that his unique idiosyncrasies (physical traits, gestures, patterns of speech, vocal tone, flaws) create a vibe and that vibe itself is enticing. Now, as far as polarity goes, I am a woman who is mostly feminine with some masculine... maybe a 75%/25% split. And I'm rarely attracted to hyper masculine guys beyond simply recognition that "Okay, I see this person is objectively attractive." I usually get the Cupid's Arrow for men who are mostly masculine with some feminine... again probably 75/25. And it's nearly always been that split for me. These are the men that I'm most polarized to because my feminine side is attracted to their masculine side and my masculine side is attracted to their feminine side. That's how polarity works. You attune to your own energetic signature and you find someone with the mirror opposite. But some common things with all attractions are these ecstatic feelings in the center of the chest and base of the spine... and a general warmth and relaxation upon thinking of the guy. But I've never felt the same way about someone twice. Each attraction I've had deals directly with the unique energy of the person.

No. That's not what I'm saying. Noticing a dog whistle means picking up on the underlying implication of something that's said/written, even if that which is being said/written is meant to to cloak the deeper sentiment. A dog whistle is that which is at a pitch that only dogs can hear. So, whenever someone is expressing some kind of racist, sexist, homophobic, or otherwise unpopular point of view, but wants to have plausible deniability, they will express things in the form of a dog whistle. That way, they can say, "What!? That's not what I meant! You're reading too much into it and straw manning!" So, the dog whistle is "Shouldn't there be regulations in the dating market if there are regulations in the financial market?" which seems (to the uninitiated) like something to simply ponder into. Just some food for thought to mull over intellectually. But those who actually hear the dog whistle (like yourself), pick up on the subtext that women are being framed as a commodity/resource. And that the OP sees women in this light and is perhaps (on some level) comfortable with women's sexual choices being controlled by something other than herself as she is object to him, not subject. Basically, it betrays that he sees female sexual sovereignty and bodily autonomy as a problem in need of solving. Now, do I think the dog whistle is conscious? Probably not. The OP probably doesn't realize that he views women as objects. He also probably thinks (as of now) that he supports women's right to sexual sovereignty. But that's only because it would be an unpopular opinion to express and doesn't want to recognize that opinion that he holds. But, if the social and political tides start to turn again toward a more patriarchal slant, those with his paradigm will be the first to pop out of the woodwork to support the reneging of those rights.

Feminine attraction has to do with feelings. Feelings compel a woman to want to pair bond with a specific guy. And any random guy simply isn’t going to push the buttons and create the feelings that compel a woman to pair bond. It’s only that one guy that can do it. And it’s not even that that guy is objectively the best in any category. He may be objectively average or below average across the board. But female attraction is non-objective and very specific. Women generally don’t have strong sexual or romantic cravings towards men in general. It’s always that one particular guy. When a woman falls for a man, it is super special to her. She craves him and his humanity in particular. So, the way you’re biased is because you’re looking at female sexuality through the lens of male sexuality. Men crave women in general. A man wants sex in general. And it is high reward and a challenge to get. Women don’t crave men in general. Women don’t crave sex in general. It’s always specific. So, women’s access to sex/men in general (which men see as enviable) is a currency that doesn’t confer value to us. It’s low reward for us. It doesn’t have any pleasure or libidinal charge to it. But the feelings about that one guy are just overwhelmingly intoxicating to the point of obsession... rending your garments level of spicy hot desire. And every other guy feels meh. Seriously, if “feminine desire” were a drug it would be everyone’s favorite. It feels so good to gush over just that one guy. And again, it isn’t because he’s got some laundry list of qualities. It’s not rational. It just hits like a Cupid’s arrow where thinking about that particular guy or being around that particular guy pushes the ecstasy button. So much dopamine, endorphins, serotonin, and oxytocin all in response only to ‘Johnny’

That’s about 30% of sexual inactivity for men within the past year, with a comparison between stats from the year 2000 and the year 2018. I chalk this up to everything being very online now. But for women the stats are 19% sexual inactivity within the past year, which is a disparity but not a super extreme one. But clearly it isn’t a “men can’t get any sex because they’re undesirable incels” problem. The majority of these sexually inactive men in the study have had sex before. Otherwise, men and women’s average virginity loss age wouldn’t be the exact same. And there would be significant disparities in numbers of male vs female virgins when there simply isn’t.

The numbers aren’t correct. Here’s what they really are according to the CDC. @Harlen Kelly

It could be but isn’t always. Sometimes you are just genuinely appalled by something without having that trait in your Shadow. Though it’s always wise to examine triggers like that. You can learn more about yourself that way. Not as to say it would necessarily turn out that he is a secret objectifier. But it can turn up many realizations.

Oh! That makes sense.

I’m not glad because it hurt him. ? I’m glad and envious that a man sees the objectification of women and is shocked and appalled. Partly, it makes me feel seen. Partly, it makes me jealous that he has not witnessed much of this type of thing.