Emerald

These are common too

Toxic traits do tend to differ based on the energy one most embodies. When I wrote my list, I had women in mind (and very feminine men) in particular. And that’s because these are uniquely feminine toxic traits. If I were making a toxic masculinity list, the list would be very different. The toxic feminine tends to be self-attacking. The toxic masculine tends to attack a perceived “other”. They are different.

It’s definitely different than what most men do and how they do it. These are behaviors that I’ve mostly seen in women and very feminine men. Behavior that would be described as catty. Men will bully other men too. But it’s usually done very directly with offensive attacks. For women, it becomes a wider social and emotional abuse strategy that involves manipulation.

Both. Shunning, gossiping, and ruining reputations. This behavior goes all the way back to elementary school. The mean girls will bully you, shun you, hold a grudge, gossip about you, and then have fun poisoning all your classmates against you. This behavior is usually targeted at other girls.

Toxic traits that can be recognized as a pattern in a sizable minority of women... - Practicing social ostracism toward women they perceive as lower or higher status than them - Ganging up on women they perceive as lower or higher status than them - Underhanded compliments (Oh wow! You look so amazing. WhO dOeS yOuR mAkEuP?) - Constant competition for male attention - Passive aggressiveness - Fretfulness - Neediness - Jealousy - Getting together in a group and playing psychological mind games - Internalized misogyny (ex. I only hang out with guys because there’s less drama.) - Leaning too heavily on others for emotional support - Social drama = peak entertainment - Sourness toward service industry workers - Holding grudges - Lack of accountability for actions - Seeking partnership for materialistic/image related reasons (aka gold digging, status seeking, fitting societal expectations) - Focus towards appearances and materialism - Expecting that happiness emerges from having the perfect relationship - Crippling self-esteem issues that translate to total self-absorption - Conspiratorial thinking (everyone’s out to get them, so they’re out to get everyone else) - pettiness - Lack of ambition - Super strong disgust, fear, or anger reaction to anything even slightly unusual or unpleasant. Zero tolerance for discomfort.

Great post!

I’m saying that, what you think works on a grand scale for women... 1. Works with only a percentage of the female population, but is interpreted as a general truism about feminine instinct when it isn’t. You’re getting a small snapshot of what SOME women will SOMETIMES accept. But you’re not getting the rule of what women instinctually crave, you’re getting the exception and interpreting it as the rule. 2. The women it does work for would have still gone home with you even without those techniques. You really just need to interact with women for some of them to want to sleep with you. 3. A woman agreeing to have sex with a man is not in itself an indicator of female sexual satisfaction or deep levels of attraction. Truly realized female sexual satisfaction can only arise in a situation where a depth of connection and intimacy has been established, which takes a long time. As a woman who’s had one-night stands before, I can tell you that they were pretty blah and just something to assuage feelings of loneliness. It’s much much better with a man you’ve developed trust and intimacy with.

Absolutely. It’s clear that these men who subscribe to this distorted paradigm of human sexuality are really threatened by women sharing the truth of what we actually respond to in a man. They get a lot of comfort and a false sense of invulnerability and power by subscribing to this alpha/beta narrative. So any threat to that paradigm feels like a threat to their power... which makes them fear feeling the insecurity and fear of female judgment they felt before they adopted this placebo perspective. Little do they know that women would genuinely admire them much more if they just be themselves and develop themselves as human beings.

I never called you garbage. You’re just currently low quality from the standpoint of what women value in a relationship with a man as your perspective guarantees that the woman won’t feel satisfied in a relationship with you as she won’t feel secure enough to surrender and open up. And this makes intimacy impossible which is what the woman really needs to feel in her relationship to feel good. Basically, a relationship with a man with your perspective is not what any woman is actually looking for. But because there are so many men like you, you might get a few women with low standards trying to turn you into the guy they’re actually looking for simply out of desperation. But make no mistake, if a woman feels insecure in a relationship, she will constantly be in her masculine energy with her walls up. And this won’t be fulfilling for her. Women generally have an instinct to seek a man that they can feel claimed by and feel safe with. And this is because this gives her a space in her life to be in her feminine energy. And if she is worried about you being carried off by your emotional whims and urges, then she won’t feel secure enough to be feminine. And she will be in her masculine energy and pick fights with you constantly. And that’s nearly universally true as it is a reflection of the feminine instinct for pair bonding, child rearing, and community building.

Of course she does. She knows what women ACTUALLY like (and also what turns women off) because she is one herself. So, her only challenge is to find gay, bisexual, and bicurious women. So, that’s probably 25%+ of the female population. And then she can make connections, make her sexuality known, and test the waters.

Exactly. It’s really bothersome because, in trying to make themselves into more attractive men, they’re unknowingly making themselves into much less attractive men. And when women tell them this, they don’t believe us. They think our motive is that we don’t want men to be attractive to avoid being “caught”... which makes zero sense if you realize how much women actually like men. But because these ideas/techniques give them the equivalent of Dumbo’s magic feather (aka a placebo), they run with it. And they misattribute their sexual success with these ideas and techniques. When any success they actually got simply came from interacting with women. They could have done it as their normal self and gotten sexual success with just as many women the whole time. But they adopt this imaginary framework and they get trapped there. And this leaves the world with a scarcity of good men who are high quality.

I’m bisexual... so...

We’re telling you about the female sexual bias. We already know what attracts us and what type of men we look up to. We’re trying to let you in on the secrets of what women really admire in men. You’re welcome

If a man isn’t honest, that’s a WAY bigger red flag than a high lay count. That’s not just a red flag, that’s a dealbreaker. And it’s pretty easy to spot intuitively when someone is dishonest like that. A guy would have much better chances being honest about a high lay count than he would have lying about it.

100% I hate how so many men don’t believe women when women tell them what’s attractive to them and what isn’t. The equivalent would be if there were a large group of women out there who really believed that women with really long nose hairs were the most attractive “alpha” women that all men crave to be with. And these women would always be trying to grow their nose hair really long. And then, anytime they’d get a guy to sleep with them, they’d say “See! It must be the nose hair.” And then some of these women would sell other women the secrets to attracting men by having long nose hair. And showing these women different techniques for styling their nose hair. And then when men would say, “Ew! We don’t like it when women have long nose hair!” All the nose hair women would go, “Silly men. They just don’t know what they’re attracted to. All men respond to long nose hair on a woman. Never listen to a man about what attracts them.” And men would keep saying, “No, we genuinely think that’s gross.” And the nose hair women would say, “Oh yeah? Sure!!! Well me and all my nose hair coaches have had sex with tons of men using the nose hair method. Therefore, all men respond to nose hair on a woman!”

Yeah, for sure. A man with tons of partners really does raise up doubts about how emotionally safe he’ll be to open up around. But I see a high lay count as something like exceeding “every year of his adult life times 1.5” So, if a guy is 40, then I wouldn’t see him having 20-30 sexual partners as being too excessive. Though it would raise questions about how long his longest relationship was. And that would be a red flag of he’s never had a relationship lasting 3+ years. But if a guy is 25 with 20-30 partners, then it would be a bit of a red flag that would raise questions.

An alpha male, in my view, is a man who possesses the qualities of Divine Masculine and who embodies the King Archetype. He is the kind of man that a woman wants to settle down with and grow old with. Women value settling down. It isn’t something they do begrudgingly when they get older. Young women and old women tend to want long term partners because one-night stands and flings are kind of empty and boring from the female perspective. It’s a pretty low to medium reward activity, tbh. So, you must understand that as women discover themselves, they begin to recognize the men you’re describing as “alpha” as scrubs. And they realize that those guys are not high quality men. And they begin to appreciate more stable, fatherly men who are a closer embodiment of the King Archetype. As a teenager, I was really attracted to the scrubby “alpha” guys. But once I turned 20, I began valuing maturity and stability in men. So, the latter kind of guy became repulsive and the more paternal/stable/provider type became very alluring.

It certainly can be one, for sure. It can indicate that he’s too driven by his passions/instincts or his desire for female approval to be a stable partner.

Why the question marks? Women don’t find men with higher lay counts more attractive, masculine, or respectable. I know tons of guys from my hometown who had double-digit lay count by the end of high school. And these guys were universally seen as kind of scrubby.

The men you label as “beta male providers” are the “alpha males” of society. The men you label as “alpha males” are probably scrubs. Women will fall for them when they’re inexperienced, but eventually learn that these men are not worth investing in beyond one-night stands... which aren’t much fun anyway from the female perspective. Watch the quality of the male role models you look up to. You might be aspiring to be a dead beat or a scrub without realizing it. You can’t tell a man’s value or level of attractiveness in a woman’s eyes by his lay count.

I’ve never been cheated on. So, given my experiences, I’m inclined to believe there are many men out there who are not totally ruled by their instincts. I do think everyone can make mistakes, male or female. And that’s something that I have understanding for. But if someone’s framework from the get-go is, ‘All men want variety, so just accept that you’ll be cheated on.’ Then that’s just a red flag on those guys and you’ll know not to invest any attention in them. Many of the men on here are very inexperienced anyway and are not representative of the type of man that’s good to get involved with. You can and should expect fidelity. And if the man deviates from that, you’ll know his quality and can move on to a better man.

I’m just saying. The things you say don’t paint you out as a desirable man from the female perspective... forum or no forum. High quality men who are firmly rooted in their masculinity are men who have enough self-discipline to control himself and not let his emotions and instincts rule him. So, a high quality, attractive man is one who might have an instinct for variety but values his relationship and his partner’s feelings enough to prioritize those things over his whims and urges. And that you and some of the others on here frame this type of guy as a fantasy, tells me less about men in general and much more about your value as a romantic partner.

@Peter Miklis @Harlen Kelly @Arcangelo A picture of every woman on the forum in the aftermath of reading your posts...

I guess I shouldn't generalize too much. I suppose it depends on what a woman is looking for. For me, at the current juncture in life, my main motivation towards sex is all about depth, intimacy, and emotional stimulation. I realize that's what makes my libido tick. And I think that's common. But if I were at a different point in life, I might be more open to the excitement of being with a guy I just met. Like if I was more motivated by adventure-seeking than intimacy-seeking.

This is a good point too. I didn't make the connection that the topic starter was the one talking about women virtue signaling. But yeah, men with disdain toward women feel really prickly and emotionally unsafe to open up around because he will be constantly judging. And he also will be very withholding as you'd mentioned as men with a resistance toward the feminine are pretty emotionally distant. So, it's a real libido killer all around.