Emerald

I will not take responsibility for what happens to me when I'm not consenting... especially when I'm not awake. And I was not ignorant and clueless when these things happened to me... unless you mean clueless in the sense that I was asleep. I'm well aware of that men have urges toward women. You'd have to be living under a rock to not be aware of that. Women don't really need this education because we get tons of it from a very young age and it's shouted on every street-corner. We see beyond societal veils that most men never get a peek behind. The male perspective and the proclivities that come with that perspective are very well known. The female perspective is the perspective that most people are hazy about. You should understand well that you assuming the role of the teacher when you'd be much wiser to be the student.

100%

You shouldn't do sexual things to people in their sleep. I think that your mentality on this is the exact reason why I've had that happen on multiple occasions. I'm sure they all had a way of justifying it to themselves too. But an unconscious person cannot give consent. And the urges felt by men to do things to women in their sleep doesn't justify the doing of them. This isn't a "let's try to understand both sides of the story. The molester also had valid reasons for molesting." kind of thing. Men can control their urges. They are not feral beasts. And a sleeping woman should not have to worry about men doing these things to her.

Thank you for the kind words! It was great talking to you today.

You're welcome. I made it vivid because I don't think many men realize the situations that women and girls experience. It's not on most men's radar. So, men who don't do these things tend to side more often with men who do do these things because it's nicer to believe that these kinds of things are rare occurrences that are carried out by some maniac in the bush. But it really is a significant chunk of men. And it's often the guys you least expect. My friend in high school (age 15) was hanging out with this guy Evan that I'd known since 1st grade. And he was always super nice. But while my friend was asleep, Evan tried to put his hand inside her panties... my impression is that she was a bit of heavier sleeper than me, unfortunately. She was really in a bad way about it for a long time with feelings of emptiness and a total breech of trust. Evan was one of her really good friends. So, given how common these kinds of things are, I would guess upwards of 10-20% of men would do things like this. It's just that men who don't do these things, don't often have the chance to have that veil pulled back to get a glimpse of the reality. They don't do it and it doesn't happen to them. So, it's a shock. Much easier to stay in the bubble and deny the reality and victim blame than it is to see beyond the veil to realize that the world is darker than they know.

@Shin Yeah, this is definitely true. You're far more vulnerable to friends and acquaintances than you are to random strangers in the bush. Statistically, women are much more in danger in the home than they are outside the home. Men and women's risk of being attacked on the street by a stranger is very similar (perhaps because women go out by themselves as often as men.) But women's risk of being abused, attacked, raped by a romantic parter, friends, etc. is MUCH higher. I've woken up on three different occasions to men I knew personally trying to do stuff to me in my sleep. Luckily I'm a very light sleeper. Once at 14, I woke up to a man (age 42) drunk with his hand just above my breast. He was my dad's friend that I've known since I was a baby and he was staying at our house. Once at 17, I was hanging out with my then-boyfriend Jeff, my friend Andrew, and this guy Jay (age 23) who was an acquaintance of mine who I'd known for a few years. I lived with Jeff and his family then. So, I'd fallen asleep on the loveseat and was wearing a long skirt... and my legs were draped over one side of the loveseat. Jeff went to go take Andrew home, not thinking anything of leaving me there with Jay. And I had this terrible dream of wearing this nasty yellow coat that was infested with roaches. And I felt a roach crawling up my leg and it disgusted/startled me to the point of waking. And the sensation of the roach on my leg in the dream was (in real life) the sensation of Jay slowly lifting up my skirt. And when I woke up and looked right at him he nonchalantly said, "Oh, Jeff wanted me to wake you up to tell you that he's taking Andrew home." He had it planned. Then, when I was 19, I was at a friends house and her boyfriend, she, and I were sleeping together on a large air mattress. And my friend was in the middle. And the man assumed that I was asleep. I was laying on my back. He had his arm draped over my friend, hovering several inches over my breasts. I could see right away what he was trying to do. I lay there for minutes as he slowly lowered his hand closer and closer to my breasts. Then, right as he made the slightest contact, I turned abruptly onto my side. The next day he said to me something like, "Hey, sorry if I accidentally put my hand on you last night. I was asleep." And then there's just countless times that I've been touched inappropriately or put in uncomfortable situations by friends and acquaintances. High school was really terrible for that. One time, my friend Russell (who's generally a well-meaning person) scared the bejeezus out of me. One thing to note is that Russell is a giant. He's definitely over 6'5" and he's very husky. So, he's a very big guy. He was way back then too. And at age 13 or so I had gone to his grandma's house to hang out with him. And we were in his room, and I think he took a liking to me. And I was sitting in a computer chair. And he grabbed the computer chair by the arms and drug me over in front of him and looked at me with flirty/sexual intent. And he had the chair between his knees. And I felt so afraid and helpless in that moment because I thought, "What is he going to do to me?". And at 13, I'd already dealt with a lot of sexual harassment at school. And he didn't do anything. I think he was just trying to flirt and had no idea how that would be perceived... especially given that I was like 5 foot even at the time. Maybe not even that. Basically, there are too many situations where I've felt sexually uncomfortable to even count or remember all of them. And TONS of more minor sexual harassment from friends and acquaintances... like a death by 1000 papercuts. But you do go numb to it... until the rage rises. Back then, when I used to smoke weed, I'd get all these terrible feelings and get really paranoid about sexual things. And this sense of disgust and rage would come up. One time I even got into this delusional space where I felt like a demon from hell was going to come into my room and rape me. I really went there in my mind to where that felt real, because it was a symbol for how the guys in my life often made me feel. The weed just brought all that stuff up to the surface that I was essentially numb to otherwise. I was really anti-feminist at the time, and basically coped with these experiences through pretending that women get treated equally to men. I'd get really ticked off if anyone suggested that women were getting the shittier end of the stick in any way. So, I had a lot of repression back then about these topics.

Your post definitely reflects the potential that I see within marriage. When you enter into a marriage, you have the opportunity to learn and grown through the embodiment of the sacred marriage archetype. And this takes a lot of work and honesty and communication and boundary setting. And I think, because of our lack of awareness of what intimacy means, most marriages are probably terrible. I'm so surprised that the divorce rate is only at 50%. I think the lion's share of the 50% is coming from social pressure and keeping a stiff upper lip. But in a marriage that truly embodies the sacred marriage, there is a real path to spiritual and non-spiritual growth.

I didn’t say that the community was “legitimate” or had much merit. I still don’t think it’s a high quality community. That’s what you’re reading into what I posted. I still wouldn’t be interested in joining the discussions, as places like this (including Red Pill) tend to turn into a circle jerk where people are tonguing their own wounds together but not doing any actual healing. I just said that it was different than I first expected based on what the OP said. I expected it to be more shallow overall because I’ve seen a lot of shallow posts/memes about dating woes. But there were many legitimate grievances sprinkled through the posts that I can tell the women posting have firsthand experience with. So, for that reason, I didn’t want to blanket-delegitimize everyone in there. So, I wanted to correct my first assumption as there were certainly things posted on there that can be noticed as a pattern in society.

I wasn't referring to that one in particular when I said there were some that had merit. I was focused towards other posts on there which were more thought out than I expected on first glance. I expected a bunch of sentimental "I'm a queen and I need a king" stuff. Now, that post is a bit mean. That said, there are still some kernels of truth in it. There are many men who are like that. And I think it is a generational thing. But of course, I wouldn't use it as a blanket statement about men. And I wouldn't call names. There just are a lot of men who behave that way. So, it's not really surprising that some women would have experiences with these men and be upset and make such a statement.

Many of these are accurate. It doesn't seem as low quality as the OP seemed to suggest. I was under the impression that it was women who post stuff to cope with relationship problems with memes like...

It's a bit different than that. They won't be able to drop their hate for the opposite gender until the roots of it are dealt with, which is low self-esteem and self-hatred. They will also need to integrate their inner opposites (Anima or Animus). Without the inner opposite integrated, neediness for relationship to the opposite gender will arise. And it will be like halves desperately seeking their half, instead of being whole within themselves. But the self-hatred has to be addressed first.

@AtheisticNonduality You two, don't get all hot and bothered too quickly. Obviously if she genuinely felt like she didn't need a man, she wouldn't have felt compelled to post about how much she doesn't need a man. It's the same thing with MGTOW guys. If they were really trying to be independent from women and go their own way, they wouldn't be in a movement that's centered on how much they don't want to be with women. Their whole movement is about relationship to women. The more resistance people show to the opposite gender and the more they brag about how much they don't need anyone of the opposite gender.... the greater the chance is that they are absolutely OBSESSED with the opposite gender. Look in a MGTOW guys head and every other thought he thinks will be about women. Look into a woman like the one in the post's head and every other thought she thinks will be about men. The more resistance there is, the more worship there is.

I have not seen that subreddit as it wouldn't really appeal. And I would guess that most women on here are quite comfortable with their masculine side given that we resonate with Leo's content which has a masculine slant. And this type of "men ain't shit" behavior comes about for women who have an unintegrated masculine side and feel 100% dependent on men for their happiness, which leads to resentment of men because of the power they give away to them. And so they seek to make men feel the same way. Overall, what Red Pill is is male frustration because the men involved feel unlovable in the eyes of women. And it's the same thing with women who make these sentiments, being petty and trying to take men down a peg because these women feel unlovable in the eyes of men. So, it is really the same kind of pettiness that comes about. Red Pill guys are always putting women up on a pedestal and then getting resentful that women are up on a pedestal and then trying to take them down off the imaginary pedestal. It's the same thing as these women are doing. They put men up on a pedestal and get resentful that men are up on a pedestal and then start shit-talking men to drag them off the imaginary pedestal. I see women from my (very redneck) hometown sometimes post these memes about how 'You only find a good woman once because we're rare. And if he lets you go, then that's his loss because he missed out on a Goddess' But the roots of it are deep wounding and feelings of low self-esteem... and a codependent sense that their life is incomplete without a man and a feeling like men hold all their power and worth. So, in that regard, it is the feminine mirror to the Red Pill stuff.

Hi @soos_mite_ah, if you have any questions about my practice, feel free to ask.

Thank you for recommending me.

Cocky guys are honestly super annoying. Their cockiness is usually a facade that covers deeper insecurities and issues. Some women will mistake cockiness for confidence. But usually, once a woman has experience and discernment, cockiness becomes super repellant.

That's fine if you want to respond in the way you have. Like I said, it's your choice. But keep in mind, you will be playing a role in shaping public opinion of those who have sub fetishes... whether it's fair or not or whether you like it or not. And when you react this way, you're giving away all your levers of power. When you're the one that's coming unglued (no matter how correct you are), you and your viewpoint is going to be marginalized and taken less seriously by the general populace who are mostly ignorant to these realities. This is especially true, given that the OP is clearly not consciously trying to bully anyone and you totally flipped out on him like he was. It just shows you're a bit out of touch with the reality of the situation and projection ill-intent when there is not. And you're turning what could be a teaching moment (not just for him but others) into a shaming of righteous indignation from up on a high horse. And as someone with some sub fetishes, it isn't like we're an oppressed class. So, I totally think you should have enough self-control to TYPE about it coherently without showing that you're freaked out about it. If we were having this conversation face-to-face in realtime, I could buy that you'd get triggered and say some harsh words. I would understand. But you're TYPING over the course of a week and still haven't evened your tone of demonization. You're still being condescending. I mean, I get super triggered all the time about all the misogynistic stuff that's said on here because it goes over all my wounds... and yet I can still keep be measured in my typing enough to come across as the adult in the room. And you want to know why I do that... because there's persuasive power in being the adult in the room. If I started calling these guys assholes and being belligerent myself and freaking out, certainly it's understandable. It's an attack on who I am. But I also know (whether it's fair or not), that if I respond erratically in these scenarios that I lose the battle of optics and thus all of my persuasive power with it... and I give it ALL to them to say, "See... exhibit A". And that persuasive power is not necessarily for the person I'm in debate with. It's for all those in the public forum looking onward who are fence sitters. So, if I have the best optics... I've won. And you are losing the optics battle on this one... big time. Just being honest, you look like a lunatic on this thread. And you've thrown away all your power. And likely no one has sympathized with your point of view.

I'm just saying that your way of responding is not really reflective of the situation. I genuinely don't think he means harm. It's more ignorance to the experience of fetish and being a bit of a bull in a china shop. And perhaps his own issues being mixed in there. And the issue with your response (though I understand that this may be personally hurtful) is that it just isn't very helpful at getting him (or more importantly for rhetorical purposes OTHERS on the thread) to understand. Basically, it's bad optics and doesn't hearten anyone to those that are dealing with fetishes and kinks. But you just have to make the decision, "Do I want to lash out and express my anger?" or "Do I want to educate people and help people understand?" Either way, it's a valid decision. Your reaction is a reflection of the former, which is fine. It's not your responsibility to educate anyone. But you should understand that your intense emotions reaction is ineffective if your goal is to educate and open people's minds.

I’m not in denial. I’ve just had enough experiences to know the difference between a mature man and an immature man. Immature men hyper-focus toward the youngest, hottest women as they see youth and beauty as the main or only attraction trigger. This is understandable until about the age of 25, as that’s just where young guys are in their development. But it is a sign that a man has not yet fully matured. Mature men (usually 25+) will be somewhat focused towards looks/ beauty but will require the presence of other personality-based attraction triggers to be interested in pursuing. So, they will not experience the looks-trigger as the “main” one but as the first one out of many. Now, perhaps you’re under 25 and this just isn’t where you’re at now. That would be quite normal. But women are very interested in men who are mature. And part of that maturity is a more multifaceted attraction instinct. And if you want to be seen as a high quality and mature partner, the best thing you can do is tap into your other attraction triggers.

The physical attraction trigger has to be there to be interest in the first place. So, it is the first and most apparent trigger. But to call it the ‘main’ one is a perspective of someone who isn’t in touch with the other triggers... which are also instinctual and not logical And this is a good litmus test that women use to sort men as she gains more experience. If a man only or primarily focuses on the looks/youth attraction trigger, this betrays a lack of experience/development. But if a man is attracted to a woman in a multifaceted way, this man will be much better at bonding.

Beauty is an important attraction trigger for high quality men too. And you probably see it as the main one because it’s the first and easiest instinct to notice. Even a teenage boy notices this trigger. But a high quality man becomes attracted to a woman based on many triggers as he matures. And physical attraction based on beauty is one just facet of the male attraction instinct. A man with an integrated feminine side, will have a more multifaceted instinctual response to women that goes beyond the surface. You’ll find out when once you get there. ?

The key word here that she’s disagreeing with is “main”. Neither she nor I agree with your argument that it is the ‘main’ attraction trigger for men who are highly conscious. It is definitely an attraction trigger and an important one. And it is the initiatory attraction trigger... as if a man isn’t attracted to a woman, he won’t be interested. But most men can and do get attracted to women around their age. The average age difference in couples is two years. But the same is true to an extent for women. If a man doesn’t hit a certain bar of physical attractiveness, then there is not much he can do to bring himself above. There are some guys you just know you won’t be attracted to. Though women’s bar for looks is usually a couple points underneath her physical attractiveness level. For example, a woman who’s a 6 would go for a 4 with a lot going for him... but definitely not a 3 regardless of what he’s got going for him. So, attraction definitely needs to be there. But it isn’t the main trigger for attraction in a well-developed man... he will have many triggers that need to be there for him to consider a woman for relationship. But attraction will be the first trigger. Sex on the other hand, he will go for just the attraction trigger as long as he feels there isn’t a power imbalance in the situation otherwise. But a man who’s specifically looking for 18-20 year olds for sex who is past the age off 26 is probably looking for an imbalance in power and is having some maturity issues.

@Harlen Kelly Most men will want to sleep with 18-20 year old women. But a high quality man will be concerned more for her well-being than with satisfying his base instincts. A highly conscious man will have his lower age limit at 22 or 23 when a person’s brain stops developing. Anything younger than that is exploitative. But AGAIN, this is a conversation about how women’s taste in men changes as we age. It doesn’t really matter what men generally respond to. When we’re older and looking for a partner, we will filter out men who are only focused toward these surface level things.

No she isn’t arguing against it. She and I are saying the exact same thing. She’s stated that she agrees with you many times. But older women are more selective despite the fact that they have a smaller pool of suitors. The size of the pool of suitors has nothing to do with how selective a woman is. As I’ve said, female bias exists independently from male bias. Fewer men are interested in older women, this is true. But likewise older women are much less likely to accept low quality men compared to when they were younger. So, older women are more selective than younger women. That’s just the way it is. Ask any woman over 30, and she’ll tell you that her standards have gone up since she was in her early 20s... simply because she knows better now what a good man looks like.

I went back and realized that I misunderstood what you said. But I responded to it earlier thinking you were arguing that a conscious man would get in a relationship with an emotionally immature woman. This was the quote... “I addressed your point about a conscious man forming a relationship with an immature but hot young woman on my response to @Etherial Cat.” But I reiterate, why are you arguing with Ethereal Cat and I when we’re not disagreeing with you. Obviously, we know that physical attractiveness and youthful beauty is a trigger for male attraction. That’s a “duh” thing. You’d have to live under a rock not to know that. But when we’re talking about female sexuality and how it changes over time and how tastes in men change with experience (which very few people know about) it gets resisted against. And in ways that make no sense. It really seems like you’re upset that we’re talking about women’s preferences in men, so you feel like you have to argue with or push back against something. And you continue arguing with something that we’re not even disagreeing with.