Emerald

Exactly. It’s really bothersome because, in trying to make themselves into more attractive men, they’re unknowingly making themselves into much less attractive men. And when women tell them this, they don’t believe us. They think our motive is that we don’t want men to be attractive to avoid being “caught”... which makes zero sense if you realize how much women actually like men. But because these ideas/techniques give them the equivalent of Dumbo’s magic feather (aka a placebo), they run with it. And they misattribute their sexual success with these ideas and techniques. When any success they actually got simply came from interacting with women. They could have done it as their normal self and gotten sexual success with just as many women the whole time. But they adopt this imaginary framework and they get trapped there. And this leaves the world with a scarcity of good men who are high quality.

I’m bisexual... so...

We’re telling you about the female sexual bias. We already know what attracts us and what type of men we look up to. We’re trying to let you in on the secrets of what women really admire in men. You’re welcome

If a man isn’t honest, that’s a WAY bigger red flag than a high lay count. That’s not just a red flag, that’s a dealbreaker. And it’s pretty easy to spot intuitively when someone is dishonest like that. A guy would have much better chances being honest about a high lay count than he would have lying about it.

100% I hate how so many men don’t believe women when women tell them what’s attractive to them and what isn’t. The equivalent would be if there were a large group of women out there who really believed that women with really long nose hairs were the most attractive “alpha” women that all men crave to be with. And these women would always be trying to grow their nose hair really long. And then, anytime they’d get a guy to sleep with them, they’d say “See! It must be the nose hair.” And then some of these women would sell other women the secrets to attracting men by having long nose hair. And showing these women different techniques for styling their nose hair. And then when men would say, “Ew! We don’t like it when women have long nose hair!” All the nose hair women would go, “Silly men. They just don’t know what they’re attracted to. All men respond to long nose hair on a woman. Never listen to a man about what attracts them.” And men would keep saying, “No, we genuinely think that’s gross.” And the nose hair women would say, “Oh yeah? Sure!!! Well me and all my nose hair coaches have had sex with tons of men using the nose hair method. Therefore, all men respond to nose hair on a woman!”

Yeah, for sure. A man with tons of partners really does raise up doubts about how emotionally safe he’ll be to open up around. But I see a high lay count as something like exceeding “every year of his adult life times 1.5” So, if a guy is 40, then I wouldn’t see him having 20-30 sexual partners as being too excessive. Though it would raise questions about how long his longest relationship was. And that would be a red flag of he’s never had a relationship lasting 3+ years. But if a guy is 25 with 20-30 partners, then it would be a bit of a red flag that would raise questions.

An alpha male, in my view, is a man who possesses the qualities of Divine Masculine and who embodies the King Archetype. He is the kind of man that a woman wants to settle down with and grow old with. Women value settling down. It isn’t something they do begrudgingly when they get older. Young women and old women tend to want long term partners because one-night stands and flings are kind of empty and boring from the female perspective. It’s a pretty low to medium reward activity, tbh. So, you must understand that as women discover themselves, they begin to recognize the men you’re describing as “alpha” as scrubs. And they realize that those guys are not high quality men. And they begin to appreciate more stable, fatherly men who are a closer embodiment of the King Archetype. As a teenager, I was really attracted to the scrubby “alpha” guys. But once I turned 20, I began valuing maturity and stability in men. So, the latter kind of guy became repulsive and the more paternal/stable/provider type became very alluring.

It certainly can be one, for sure. It can indicate that he’s too driven by his passions/instincts or his desire for female approval to be a stable partner.

Why the question marks? Women don’t find men with higher lay counts more attractive, masculine, or respectable. I know tons of guys from my hometown who had double-digit lay count by the end of high school. And these guys were universally seen as kind of scrubby.

The men you label as “beta male providers” are the “alpha males” of society. The men you label as “alpha males” are probably scrubs. Women will fall for them when they’re inexperienced, but eventually learn that these men are not worth investing in beyond one-night stands... which aren’t much fun anyway from the female perspective. Watch the quality of the male role models you look up to. You might be aspiring to be a dead beat or a scrub without realizing it. You can’t tell a man’s value or level of attractiveness in a woman’s eyes by his lay count.

I’ve never been cheated on. So, given my experiences, I’m inclined to believe there are many men out there who are not totally ruled by their instincts. I do think everyone can make mistakes, male or female. And that’s something that I have understanding for. But if someone’s framework from the get-go is, ‘All men want variety, so just accept that you’ll be cheated on.’ Then that’s just a red flag on those guys and you’ll know not to invest any attention in them. Many of the men on here are very inexperienced anyway and are not representative of the type of man that’s good to get involved with. You can and should expect fidelity. And if the man deviates from that, you’ll know his quality and can move on to a better man.

I’m just saying. The things you say don’t paint you out as a desirable man from the female perspective... forum or no forum. High quality men who are firmly rooted in their masculinity are men who have enough self-discipline to control himself and not let his emotions and instincts rule him. So, a high quality, attractive man is one who might have an instinct for variety but values his relationship and his partner’s feelings enough to prioritize those things over his whims and urges. And that you and some of the others on here frame this type of guy as a fantasy, tells me less about men in general and much more about your value as a romantic partner.

@Peter Miklis @Harlen Kelly @Arcangelo A picture of every woman on the forum in the aftermath of reading your posts...

I guess I shouldn't generalize too much. I suppose it depends on what a woman is looking for. For me, at the current juncture in life, my main motivation towards sex is all about depth, intimacy, and emotional stimulation. I realize that's what makes my libido tick. And I think that's common. But if I were at a different point in life, I might be more open to the excitement of being with a guy I just met. Like if I was more motivated by adventure-seeking than intimacy-seeking.

This is a good point too. I didn't make the connection that the topic starter was the one talking about women virtue signaling. But yeah, men with disdain toward women feel really prickly and emotionally unsafe to open up around because he will be constantly judging. And he also will be very withholding as you'd mentioned as men with a resistance toward the feminine are pretty emotionally distant. So, it's a real libido killer all around.

I'm not virtue signaling with what I said... though I'm not sure if you're referring to my post. What I said, is that it takes women a while to get up to temperature so that the sex is actually a high reward activity. I've had sex with men before when I was just lonely and I felt lukewarm about them, and the sex is "meh" and pretty low-reward (maybe medium reward if the guy is good at what he does). But if I've had time to develop deep feelings for a guy and I have sex with him then it can be mindblowing. And it's that kind of feeling that really motivates women to want to connect with a man. So, I was offering this perspective because men are wired different. Men get immediately up to temperature and so sex is going to be good for them either way. But for women, if a woman sleeps with a man before she's really into him, the sex is kind of blah because it doesn't give her much emotional stimulation. And it also doesn't give you as much of an opportunity to build tension with that man anymore because that bubble has been popped. So, the woman the OP is talking about might be trying to cultivate the right internal state for her to really enjoy herself. And she may be trying to cultivate enough trust and intimacy to have the sex strike certain meanings and emotional chords. But if I've already known the guy a while platonically and my feelings are already up to temperature, I don't really see a reason to wait. I am a strong believer in using the intuition to navigate sex and relationship because it tends to steer me where I need to go. So, it isn't about virtue signaling. In my history, I've had situations where I've waited and I've had situations where I've slept with guys right away the same day I met them. And usually the latter guys are guys I didn't want much else from.

She's probably still going through the process of knowing whether she wants to build something serious with you. I know personally, that if I were in a space of getting to know a guy as a relationship prospect that I think has potential but that those strong feelings haven't yet gotten to boiling point, I'd want to wait for sex until they did... just because the sex is a thousand worlds better when those feelings are present. And that usually takes several months for things to get to the boiling point where the tension is high enough for deep bonding to happen. From a woman's pov, sex really only gets decent if you feel a really strong intimate connection with someone. The physicality by itself is kind of meh without that element. In my experience, the intimacy and limerence really has to set in for truly mind-blowing sex to happen. And if you've started out initially on a sexual/romantic foot, then it will probably take a while for those feelings to get there for her. So, she's probably taking time to build the tension with you so that she knows if she really wants you and so that the sex is actually good for when it happens. That's my guess. Basically, she's a woman. Give her time to let her get up to temperature so that she enjoys the sex somewhat too.

To understand modern Feminist philosophies, I recommend "Yes Means Yes!: Visions of Female Sexual Power and A World Without Rape" by Jessica Valenti. It's a collection of essays. So, it will give you an idea of many different perspectives under the same umbrella of Feminism. When I read it a decade or so ago, it was my jumping off point into Feminism after being fairly anti-Feminist throughout my teen years. I found after a while that the Feminist material didn't quite go as deep as I was looking to go. That's when I found the authors I described above. They give a deeper, more Stage Yellow/Turquoise understanding of Feminism. But if you want to understand Stage Green Feminism (which is arguably even more important than understanding Stage Yellow/Turquoise Feminism at the current juncture), then I recommend looking into "Yes Means Yes!"

This is sexual harassment. You should set a firm boundary. And if he keeps pressuring you, you should cut him off. Lots of women have to do this when straight men don't respect the boundaries. And it's not wise to keep tolerating the behavior. I'd imagine that this isn't something that you're used to having to do as this probably doesn't happen too often where men are trying to go over your sexual boundaries. But you might have to cut this guy off from friendship if he doesn't stop.

Apology accepted

Exactly. It's like 'The drive toward sexual assault is just natural for all men. So, better lower your standards and get used to it because it's integral to men's nature. This is your burden to bear if you're around them.'

Yeah, totally this. This is bothersome because I have spoken about my experiences with sexual assault, and then having it framed as though I was overly-emotional or irrational about it. Or that somehow it happened because I didn't know any better somehow. But these are experiences/traumas that I've done a lot of inner work on and have reflected deeply on. I don't really have any particular emotional reaction when it comes to these things if I'm just talking about them as stories of fact. It's more mind-based when I share in this context. This is not a space where heart-centric stuff can get unpacked. There's not enough emotional safety here to do that. But a lot of intellectual realizations can still be gleaned. So, I initially posted to say simply that these things happened to me. They were traumatic. And similar things happen to lots of women... and some men. And to stress that these are not rare occurrences. And I was hoping to share to give a snapshot for those well-meaning men who have not seen beyond that veil who may still be under the impression that these things are rare occurrences. I was hoping to shock a bit. And I think it probably has shocked some men on here. And I'm sure it shocks them even more to see how hostile and minimizing many of the responses to my posts have been. And as such, it is both a win and a disappointment. And just because this should be said somewhere on here, sexual assault doesn't come from male sexual urges. Most boys/men have sexual urges toward women. But most boys/men do not commit sexual assault. Sexual assault comes from a learned sense of entitlement to women's bodies and a prioritizing of male urges over female well-being. Sexual assault isn't the norm and would be very unwise to normalize it. And this is what perspectives like Integral's perspective does. It normalizes assault and frames it as an integral part of the male instinct, even if he doesn't realize it. Sexual assault comes from boys/men not being held accountable and not being educated about taking personal responsibility for their actions and the consequences of those actions. And they glean from the culture that women are responsible for men's actions. So, if a boy/man sexually assaults a woman, 'it isn't his fault because men have urges and needs and that women should be aware enough to not tempt him'. And if she falls asleep in the proximal area of a guy... then 'it's a shame she wasn't better educated about the nature of boys/men.' or more commonly 'She should've known better." And it's quite audacious to think that someone who's been on the receiving end of sexual assault has never looked into why some men do things like that. This is especially true when my general MO to ponder into things is quite well-known here. But the way I read this is that Integral's reason for posting is not really educational or altruistic, even though he's framed it that way and likewise convinced himself of that. He's posting these things because me sharing my sexual assault stories is bothering him for some reason and making him feel uncomfortable. And he's trying to find a way to make it an "everybody's responsible" situation, because he doesn't like the way he feels when he hears my experiences. He's just convinced himself that his reason is educational. But it's really self-protective. Perhaps, he doesn't want to see his actions or sexuality as problematic. Maybe he has some worries about that whether they are or aren't. And it can help him assuage those worries by saying everything's 50/50. It's kind of how, in bad relationships, if you go to your partner with a grievance to be addressed and they deflect by saying (for example) "Yeah, well I might have been lying to you about having sex with other people... but you always leave your towels on the bathroom floor. So, it's basically even. We're both wrong." It's deflection disguised as education... even disguised to himself, I think.

Thank you. I appreciate you calling them out.

I will not take responsibility for what happens to me when I'm not consenting... especially when I'm not awake. And I was not ignorant and clueless when these things happened to me... unless you mean clueless in the sense that I was asleep. I'm well aware of that men have urges toward women. You'd have to be living under a rock to not be aware of that. Women don't really need this education because we get tons of it from a very young age and it's shouted on every street-corner. We see beyond societal veils that most men never get a peek behind. The male perspective and the proclivities that come with that perspective are very well known. The female perspective is the perspective that most people are hazy about. You should understand well that you assuming the role of the teacher when you'd be much wiser to be the student.

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