Shanmugam

You think this only applies to enlightened people? To a certain extent, everyone speaks a different language... Language sometimes causes a lot of misunderstanding. Saying 'I love you' means different thing to different people. And we all know that men and women talk two different languages...

He has read a lot of books, he is intelligent and has good communication skills.. that's all! But people who are stuck in fantasy world and think that fantasy is spirituality are more attracted to him. But they become extremely misled and at one point stop using their intelligence. His followers are abusive and disrespectful towards others. Whenever there is any discussion about Sadhguru, I find myself quite responsible to warn people, because based on my 15 years of experience in being very close to Isha, I realize how much I was misled. Many people just don't understand the serious danger in listening to him. When you hear something over and over again, you will at some point take it as true. That is what is happening with the followers of Sadhguru. Do you want to see how spiritual his followers has become? Here is a sample: Sadhguru seems to be taking advantage of certain bias, conditioning and inferiority complex that many Indians have and making use of it to grow his business. Sometimes I post links with additional explanation, but I don't know how many people read it word by word. But let me try again. Here is something that I wrote yesterday : https://www.quora.com/What-is-your-viewpoint-on-Jaggi-Vasudev-in-comparison-with-Osho/answer/Shanmugam-P-12

As far as I am concerned, enlightenment is just a word. And nowhere in my experience of the reality I see a label 'enlightenment'.. The bottomline is the end of seeking, the end of craving to become something. Ever since that happened to me, my experience of reality has been way different from how it was before. And when people like @Saumaya describe his observations on his experience, I find that it is the same as how I experience reality. Of course, a person can make up such descriptions and there is no way to know. But once the seeking is over, I don't see any reason why he would look for a validation from others either. The reason why I say this is because you asked a similar question to me before. You asked me whether I would consider another person as 'enlightened' only if the way he describes his experience is exactly similar to mine. I not only said 'No' (because words may differ), but I also said that there is really no need for such a question. Because if someone is looking for some kind of validation from others regarding his subjective experience, that in itself indicates that something is not true there. If you feel hungry, you don't ask someone else if you are hungry and wait for their confirmation. You will simply eat! But you also need to see that many such descriptions by many people are similar. I know that there is an obvious difference between my experience before and after July 2014. And I can very easily recognize when other people state something similar. Such similar descriptions give a consensus among people who experience reality this way. In fact, people think they know that external world exists, only because of consensus. When I look at the tree, I assume that the tree looks the same way to your eyes as well only based on consensus. And, the existence of others is also based only on consensus and inference. You know what you see in dream did not really happen, because there is no consensus. But if someone pays careful attention to his subjective experience, he would know that only thing he can be sure about is the fact that there is consciousness which exists. Everything is perceived and experienced in this conscious, subjective experience. That is why they call this as absolute reality. I still suspect that you are assuming that something is wrong with other people here in this forum. I may be wrong but that is what most of your posts indicate. You seem to imply that there is something that you understand that many people in this forum do not understand. While you simply seem to be making conclusions about others by saying that their descriptions are their 'beliefs', I suspect if you are stuck with your own beliefs about the way things are with other people. Anyway, I know that we are in agreement on one thing.. All this game of seeking enlightenment is only about one thing: end of suffering! period. What that matters is not all those countless books about enlightenment, chakras, psychic powers, esoteric knowledge, complicated concepts etc etc. Only thing that matters is if the suffering has ended and if the ultimate freedom is known. And by suffering, I am not only talking about serious miserable experience that one goes through from time to time; I am talking about the psychological lack which indicates that something is not enough, which motivates you to seek further and which makes you prone to misery. Once the seeking ends, some people are just silent about it while some people attempt to tell others that it is possible for others too to end their suffering. This is how teachings and teachers are born. And people who seem to really help most of the people are the ones who understand the psychology and the workings of the mind. That is why I kept saying to you earlier that ending your own suffering is one thing; helping other people to end their suffering is different thing. I suspect that this is something that you fail to understand. There is nothing wrong with that if you don't understand it because if you are at peace then nothing matters to you. But when you make posts in this forum, your intentions are not clear. Because, there are only three common reasons why people would post in this forum: 1)to get help 2) to help 3) to show off .

@Saumaya what is the meaning of 'saumaya'?

@Natasha @Saumaya thanks for the clarification

THE SECRET There is only one secret which is not part of the mind, and that is witnessing, watching. Thoughts are passing, desires are moving, memories are coming and going like clouds in the sky and you are sitting silently simply watching, not doing anything. If you do anything immediately the mind starts functioning. What you do does not matter - doing is part of mind. A non-doing witnessing, just witnessing, as if a mirror goes on witnessing whatsoever passes by - that is awareness. And that awareness takes you beyond the mind. It is true meditation. Osho

End of the illusion that there was someone does happen when duality disappears.. But the phrase ''Permanent death awareness' sounds like an odd description for this.. Saumaya describes as 'being conscious of my mortality to a very high degree'... That is something which I don't experience because I don't sense My existence as something time-bound, even though I know that the body will die. But excluding this ''Permanent death awareness'', all the other points indeed perfectly describe how I experience reality every moment. Anyway, all that matters is this: "11)The questions have completely disappeared. There is no more seeking " As long as seeking disappears and a complete freedom is sensed, there will be no need to seek further. The psychological sense of lack is gone and life is no longer felt as a longing to travel from Point A to Point B..

@rothko This is the book that I strongly recommend: https://www.amazon.com/Kriya-Yoga-Exposed-Organizations-Explanation-ebook/dp/B0764HP5L8/ This book itself has many recommendations and he talks about Yoga in the most simple and less confusing way; He also makes you aware of the traps of pitfalls and busts a lot of myths about ago. I have read this book. Based on it, I can also say that his two other books should be of the same quality. I made this thread before reading the book: And here is the thread I made after reading the book:

@Saumaya Your report sounds genuine Only thing I didn't understand was what you mean by '9)Permanent death awareness'.. Can you elaborate?

I came across a page where someone has beautifully conveyed what I wanted to convey to some people. Make sure you read the complete essay. He talks about a beautiful paradox in a very good way. . I think it will be really worth it for many people to read especially those people who are 'conditioned' by some of the neo-Advaita teachers.. Also look up 'Andrew Cohen' and his confessions. http://www.lifewithoutacentre.com/writings/the-birth-and-death-of-fundamentalism-in-nonduality-and-advaita-teachings/

Not very easily.. Because my mental energy is not invested in multiple problems that has to do with past and future. Once the monkey mind is gone, a lot of energy is saved. Again, I am not talking about getting rid of intelligence or memory. I am talking about what is usually referred to as 'monkey mind'. I have spent a whole day in writing a blog post or Quora answer, while being completely immersed in the work I do and while retaining the same peace and freedom which has never left me after 2014.

Thinking in itself is not bad. What causes problem is the involuntary monkey mind. As Eckhart Tolle puts it, a typical person doesn't use his mind but his mind uses him.. Using the intellect is just like using your hands. If your hand is out of control and making involuntary movements, it won't be good. But you use your hands when you want to use it. And I am talking about something very simple. It is really not that complicated. To say it as something intellectual would be an extreme exaggeration. I am just saying that your name is Joseph Maynor. it is as simple as that. If someone calls your home phone number and asks you how many people are currently present in your house, you won't say 'there is no other.. All that exists is reality and there is no duality'. Instead you might say 'I am watching TV with four of my friends'... And I am sure a 10 year old kid would answer the question the same way.

Interesting.. Thanks for sharing

@Joseph Maynor i will give you an example from our own forum. One day, in a discussion about a guru, I posted saying that he was a fake one and just pretending to be enlightened to make money and expand his empire.. Another forum member responded to it by saying that everything is fake, implying that all forms are unreal and illusions. He said this as an objection to what I said. Though what he said was true, it was not a valid objection. But by using these terms like absolute and relative truth, I can very easily explain to him why it is not a valid objection. What he said was true in the absolute level but the discussion is about the relative reality of forms.. So, these terms are there just to make sure we are on the same page.

I don't think we disagree here.. But when someone asks what is your name, you still reply your name is Joseph Maynor. That is what I am talking about. But anyway, all these concepts are not the truth. They are only used as aids, for better communication. You are the truth, but relatively speaking, you are Joseph Maynor. These terms for levels of reality is only used for a convenience in communication. But there are certain teachers who just play with words and deny the story completely. The story exists as a story. A dream that you see at night is not true. But let us say your best friend whose name is Jack appeared in the dream last night. If I tell you the person who appeared in the dream was not Jack but your another friend David, you would say 'No that is not true, it was Jack'.. This doesn't imply that the dream is true..

I always wanted to ask you, how did you get introduced to the spiritual path in the beginning and who was your teacher? Could you elaborate on your journey? Because you must have been so fortunate to not to condition yourself with many teachings. That is what I think based on what you are saying. And what you are saying is also true.. But here in India, the situation is different. Many people get exposed to a lot of teaching and learn many things intellectually. They can't very easily empty their cup. I sometimes used to wonder if westerners more easily understand things than Indians these days. Once a person has already fed a lot of information into his system, sometimes there is a need to go in their way. Ever since I started my blog, I get questions from people which are solely based on the concepts they learned. If I tell them to let go of all these concepts, they don't listen. Their questions are like 'What do you think about kundalini awakening?', 'Have you read Upanishads', 'Do you hear the omkar nad?', 'Have you seen God' etc etc etc. Their identification with such concepts is so deep. I recommend certain books or teachers based on their conditioning.

@Joseph Maynor From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita_Vedanta

Yes... thats right... That is the whole point of any teaching. All the teachings are only finger pointing to the moon. We use all these concepts only as devices.. So where is the disagreement other than any misunderstanding that may be happening because of the usage of words?

Truth is one.. that is correct.. But even though I experience myself as this one truth, I still have to play the role in the dream in which I interact with others.. Since you have been reading Shankara, You will come across this as a part of Vedanta. In fact, Shankara talks about three levels of reality...It is actually a paradox

Yes.. that is how the essay ends.. I am mainly sharing the thoughts of the portion that I quoted and asked you if it resonates with you.. And I replied since you asked me to share my thoughts on it.. There are two terms in Vedanta. Absolute truth and relative truth The reality of the wave is the relative truth and the reality of the ocean is the absolute truth. And absolute is not the opposite of the relative..absolute also embraces the relative..

@SOUL Yes.. that is the whole point of this thread and I have already shared my thoughts in a couple of posts in this thread.. This thread is about the trap of neo-Advaita. They don't meet the seeker at where they are at. When a person is too identified with his story , when he perceives the illusion of separation as 100% real, when he is deeply conditioned by everything that was fed by the society and when he is also suffering like he is in hell, these neo-Advaita teachings do not help them at all.. In fact, most of the teachers who are doing this are themselves deluded into thinking they are enlightened.. And that is what Jeff Foster admits...

It takes a lot of preparation to understand certain simple things.. Reality is so simple, but human beings have made their minds so complicated. They have built layer upon layer of conditioning above the root ignorance of separation...All those layers have to be broken.

@SOUL I posted another one and asked you if you can resonate with that.. Did you read that post?

@SOUL See if you can resonate with this...

Are you in this forum to make fun of everyone and ridicule people? The way you post every time reminds me of that hilarious conversation.. thats all. I am not suffering from Amnesia.. :) Do you realize that your every post is predictable? In this same thread, I thought that your first reply was going to end 'just wondering' and thats how you ended it ... And I certainly thought that your previous post is going to be about me not wanting to let go of that conversation and you indeed did that.. If you want, I can save your time and make posts for you with the following lines, whenever it is applicable : 1) BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA 2) Hilarious 3)Story time 4) Just be 5) So be it... Is your response for 'Are you in this forum to make fun of everyone and ridicule people?' going to be 'so be it'? If yes, then so be it!