SOUL

Was that a chime I heard? Very insightful questions, I'm surprised nobody has taken the time to reply. Neither are "necessary", we can live our whole life undeveloped and self suffering....very many do. Development is cultivating one's life as pertaining to the circumstances of life in both the inner and outer realm. Liberation is cessation of self suffering. A person can develop one's life to a degree that they attain everything they ever wanted yet still self suffer and not be at peace. A person can liberate from self suffering and never develop their life even one bit yet still be at peace and fulfilled. Of course if a person is liberated from self suffering and is developing one's life they can be at peace and fulfilled at every step of the way even if their efforts to develop it are never fully realized. Both of these can be simultaneously pursued. Does that bring any clarity?

I have a very complicated mind, one that loves to analyze the intricacies and nuances but that is just ego looking to justify itself through it's machinations. This doesn't change that awakening is simple, being present in the moment is simple, not attaching to the self identity is simple. The simplicity of this is not enough to satisfy the ego's craving for relevance and to justify it because it in fact empties the ego of it's importance. So it invents a myriad of complexities to keep us from being present and from severing attachment to it's content. The complexity is involved with the techniques and methods of the 'path', all of the things that people will do to occupy the mind with tasks they associate with their 'spirituality' and 'consciousness work'. So they spend countless hours discussing these things with others, in writing and reading about them, so that they can indulge the ego's desire to traffic in self styled 'wisdom'. People become infatuated with the complexities of their path and it distracts from the simple nature of just being present. Just because it's simple doesn't mean it's easy, it undoubtedly can be very difficult to be present and stay present in a hyperactive and challenging world. This nonsense, pardon me but it is nonsense, about explaining the unexplainable is simply the ego projecting onto a blank screen what it believes is there. 'Nothingness' and 'emptiness' has no form, no characteristics or any definitions so to be talking about 'it's this' and 'no, it's that' is just the ego attempting to polish that blank screen into a mirror so it can gaze at it's own reflection. Liberating one from suffering is not mutually exclusive from finding a purpose in life. Although liberation is a very fine purpose in life itself and without it every other purpose leaves craving more and continues to cause suffering. So even though we may have a complex array of variables that relate to our particular life circumstances in getting what we need to survive it would be a mistake to conflate these two into one in the same. Chopping wood and carrying water is the same act that gets the same result but the fulfillment and peace in liberation is incalculable. It has been said that these techniques and methods are merely scaffolding to build our 'temple' of our path and isn't actually what we are working on. The problem with this metaphor is that it implies we still have a need for the scaffolding for as long as we continue on the temple path. I say we aren't building the temple but dismantling it, we ae tearing down the scaffolding as we tear down the temple so that neither of them remain. We aren't writing the book of our spiritual path, we are erasing it and burning the pages. The ego cannot see the wisdom in that.

Liberation is to cease self suffering, that's what liberation is, everything else is blah blah to preoccupy the egomind. If cessation can be accomplished simply why get complicated? Depth doesn't equate to complicated, that's ego distracting from the simple and tricking someone into believing they need complicated. Liberation is a deep peace, If it is the notion that emptiness and nothingness are attributes and characteristics of the awakened and 'enlightened' life then why fill the mind with all these spiritual systems of labeling and identity? That's like becoming a hoarder to be a minimalist. How much self suffering is created by people trying to understand and meet the demands of these complicated systems? There's plenty of people offering the complicated on this forum, elsewhere online and in spiritual communities everywhere. I offer a simple path because that is what liberates my experience of self suffering but I see so many still suffering and struggling with the complicated. Wisdom is often knowing what is useless more than it is just what's useful.

Yea, words can be used but it's not the words used that matter if that makes any sense. I don't purport myself to be an expert or knowledgeable on any religious and spiritual systems or esoteric knowledge. In fact, I know very little about them since I don't read spiritual books. I'm not an 'ask me anything' type person, though.....hah

Well, I quoted your own words so if that's not it then... it's your words that are not it. This is the issue with claiming it's "something that cannot be explained or conceptualized" then trying to explain concepts about it. All that esoteric knowledge and spiritual systems are things that preoccupy the ego's craving for understanding and need to 'do something to attain' it. The explanation is simple but the ego doesn't accept the simple and tricks the mind into seeking the complicated because 'if it's so simple how come I don't have it yet' is the paradox the ego presents in not allowing it to be that simple. Ultimately if the 'wisdom' doesn't cease self suffering how 'wise' is it really? It's just the mind moving pieces of information around thinking it's accomplishing something.

Who knows more than who? WHO!

Liberation is much more simple than the complicated abstrusity that has become the teachings of 'non-duality'. I find it interesting that people say it cannot be explained or conceptualized yet spend countless hours explaining their conceptualizations about it. High hurdle? You mean something like a "prior being-ness that had never had any experience, information, experimentation, observation, contemplation, spirituality"? That's pretty high... I transcend the ego's craving for understanding and now simply experience liberation so I can clearly explain how simple it is but don't confuse simple for easy, they aren't the same thing, it's simple even if it's not easy. The 'wisdom' of the path isn't understanding the intricacies of esoteric knowledge, it's what leads to liberation.

Or just accept that what doesn't exist is true to it's nature and..... doesn't exist. It takes much more faith to believe that what doesn't exist is all that really exists.

"Prior to all concepts" is a concept..... BONG!

I'm not offended, just humored by the owl cult. WHO! Does the owl gain it's wisdom of living it's life through the ego? Does the owl ask who? Haha

The null void of Mu? Just another concept..........BONG!

....and all of it is made aware through the manifest experience of being, we don't have the benefit of being aware of it in the eternal absolute of unmanifest non-experience. That bell cannot be unrung.

Who is asking how is wisdom transferred from who to who? WHO!

Again I say, that depriving senses after having senses then returning to senses is not the same thing as never having senses.... ever. Even if you did "travel" to a "prior" you say none of those existed as you suggest you did it still isn't the same as those never having existed ... so, did you really experience the non-experience of unsensory existence? Maybe so....or it could also be a state that is so deprived of the previous sensory input it only appears to be it but regardless it isn't the same thing as the eternal absolute of non-experience unsensory existence. Oh.... no need to 'travel' or use a tank.... it's ever present, just awaken to it.

Did I say "self produced"? Nope. You just showed how wisdom can't be transferred because the information I wrote wasn't cultivated into it. Contemplate that. Oh... and I didn't read any "books" on this let alone many.

Sensory deprivation isn't the same thing as not ever had sensory input. Removing something completely that is typically always present then returning to the typical sensory state provides a different experience than never having it... ever.

We don't have to imagine it, it exists in reality without the use of ideas. How does an animal gain their 'wisdom'? By using all of those.... well, maybe not contemplation, but maybe they do.

Wisdom isn't transferred, wisdom is something that is cultivated from experience, information, experimentation, observation and for us as aware self conscious beings, contemplation.

If your reality is the only one that exists then you should ask yourself...... why are you asking yourself this?

Emotions are a primitive way the self survival instinct motivates behavior, chemical reactions are the primordial way, and thoughts are the most recent evolutionary step in motivating behavior for self survival. Emotions aren't wrong or right, they just are, but as a self aware being we don't have to unconsciously be influenced by them, we are aware of them and have the ability to transcend them. So when the thread starter says they didn't follow the emotional impetus to behave in a way that reflected the 'bad' feeling and instead use their thoughts to transcend that feeling and transform it to a positive one they are simply using the thought-mind to alter their emotional state and thus their behavior. Emotions can influence thoughts and thoughts can influence emotions and both can influence behavior. Although behavior can influence both thoughts and emotions as well such as meditating or exercising can alter our thoughts and emotions. These are all connected within our experience of self conscious and we additionally have the awareness of self conscious that allows us to 'freely' intend an experience of this self conscious that isn't influenced by the impulses, urges and thoughts that conditionally arise. Awakening to the agency of this 'free will' of attention and intention of our self conscious is the opening up to what is commonly called 'enlightenment'. Staying present in that awakened agency so that it transcends the self conscious impulses, urges and thoughts is the source of liberation from suffering. It doesn't necessarily end all of the self conscious activity, it just ceases the influence of it to cause self suffering. When staying present in this awakened agency it allows us to orient our thoughts, emotions and behavior in a way that serves self survival from peace and fulfillment instead of suffering and yearning. Some may experience an immediate cessation of much of their self conscious conditioning but most will see it slowly be transformed as they 'be present' more consistently so alter the conditioning to reflect this liberation.

Who woke? Who is asking who? Who? WHO!

I appreciate your passion and your peace. I may not be the audience for this but please continue to find your genuine expression.

It seems you need to activate your sage mode, Austin. If there is infinite suffering, that means there is infinite liberation.

Endarkenment.......

Who is enlightened? Who is asking who anything? Who? Who! WHO!