SOUL

It absolutely is determined, this is what the Manifest universe is, with the quantum craziness aside. Yet there are no assurances that we perceive the objective isness accurately but may only be the subjective experience we perceive. The unmanifest isness is still undetermined and the potential is infinite so that is all that may be described of it. The mind trusts its own perception but do we in awareness trust the mind's trust of it's perception. I prefer to find peace and contentment in just being even if it is a delusion of the Mind I perceive.

It absolutely is that dance between the subjective perception and objective isness. It seems this is what the original topic was touching on. Quite often this dance of delusion in trying to 'find the truth' is a fixation which serves as a source of self suffering more than it is a cessation of it. In a recent conversation somebody said to me they had no problem with suffering to find the truth because truth was their ultimate goal. Although all we are finding is our personal subjective truth with no assurances that it is universal objective truth despite the proclamations that it is.

The 'man behind the curtain'.....the man, the curtain and the 'behind' are all a delusion. Haha

Which do you seek? To 'know if mind is deluded' or to 'experience the cessation of self suffering'? I experience the cessation of self suffering and if that liberation is merely a delusion then so be it..... let's dance!

Well, the ego is the personification of our self's desire to identify with itself so even though it's not much more than a conceptual construct it is a manifestation of the many impulses, urges, ideas, beliefs, thoughts, desires and mental paradigms.

You are a very active imputer of truth on this forum with all your beliefs about what is impossible or can't or must and on and on that you attempt to project onto everyone else's experience.

...and that is your belief which you believe is all you see but you cannot create this experience for anyone else except your own self. This comes to the core of this thread's topic, can we trust our own mind if is capable of being deluded? Belief is the psychological trust we place into something being what it appears to be. So can we trust the trust of our mind? If in our experience we have the cessation of self suffering then there is no doubt in our liberation even if it is a delusion, it is what it is because it is our experience of it. There is a delicate dance between what we perceive things to be and what really is. So even though we get to draw our own map of meaning, our perception of what is doesn't actually change what really is but just maps out how we perceive it. This is why I create a simple map that doesn't have difficult requirements for the cessation of self suffering so I do experience that liberation. In celebration of life.... So you impute truth to the concept and belief that if one imputes the tiniest bit of truth to conceptuality one will never let go of belief and lean towards belief so you don't let go of this belief and lean towards it. See how that works? Dances with words.... Precisely. Although, it is when we identify with the belief and attach our 'self' to it that there is the potential to self suffer because of it. This is why I suggest in unattached awareness of the self and it's contents including belief allows for liberation from self suffering. My own experience realizes this even if it is merely a delusion...haha I liken the ego to the self's advocate......it wants us to attach and works to attach to the construct and content of self to justify itself. This is us..... Dancing with delusion.

You sure do dance, you dance around with words and your words have no meaning because they are empty and have no truth, you say it yourself and you believe it. Liberation doesn't require dropping beliefs, that is just your belief and is a limitation for you, not anyone else. Liberation is the cessation of self suffering and if you experience liberation this is what you'd be saying to me. Of course you're not saying this and it is revealing because I can see right through your dances with words.

If awareness doesn't change as you suggest how can it become something? To become something is to change. Is awareness part of this everything that is changing? Then why do you say awareness doesn't change? It's not as mysterious or esoteric as it sounds in that quote. It's the perception of awareness, are we looking at the tao or from the tao? Although don't confuse this with another duality, it's really just one perspective and whether we see the nature of its change is in our perception of awareness.

People often interpret illusion to mean 'does not exist' yet it more accurately can mean 'not as appears'. So an illusion does exist... it's just not as it appears.

Wait... we have the option to not evolve? Haha

@Anton Rogachevski Well, even the words 'unmanifest awareness' are just labels we use to communicate meaning to another and our mind uses those labels for conceptualization so labeling itself isn't what causes the feeling of separation. When we attach our awareness of being to a self identity in something like labels, beliefs, concepts and on and on that sense of separation blossoms in our consciousness because it realizes the division between what we are and we are not in the mind through the sense of self identity. Even if someone identifies as the one who severs attachment, dissolves ego, dis-identifies, becomes no-self, resists something or actively does something to attain it creates a feeling of separation as duality. Abiding in unattached awareness of being is such a subtle non-activity it confounds the mind because it has nothing to cling to in self identity. So, in effect the feeling of separation is the source of self suffering and abiding in the unity of unattached awareness of being is liberating to our conscious experience.

A duality is perceived in the feeling of separation from the sense of self which is the attached awareness of our consciousness in the manifest. Our unattached awareness of our consciousness is unified with the unmanifest awareness of the absolute and feels connected so there is a perception of unity. The question is do we bring attention to and endorse the attached sense of separated self or do we abide in the unattached sense of the unified being? That will answer whether there is a perception of separation/duality or a perception of one/unity. I experience liberation and there are still beliefs. I believe that these words I type have meaning that can be communicated, I believe that when I hit 'submit reply' these words will post on the forum. Although, I also believe that the meaning and posting of words have no influence and effect on my experience of liberation. Liberation is the cessation of self suffering not the cessation of belief. Belief is merely a mechanism the mind uses to help us successfully navigate in the manifest existence. Belief can cause self suffering when we attach our awareness to those beliefs so create self identity on those beliefs. If we abide in unattached awareness of being present any belief held has no self identity creating or sustaining effect in our experience so the cessation of self suffering can be realized in liberation. Belief in that experience is nothing more than just a psychological feature that helps keep the organism alive and not the cause of self suffering. You have beliefs as well since you type out words trusting they have meaning that can be communicated and hit 'submit reply' trusting they will post on the forum. If Leo paid the bills they will.....we believe.

Yes, I probably should have said at least one of the forms of awareness is formless. This unmanifest awareness is accessible to our consciousness and from the perspective of it we perceive the unity and it's absolute nature.

Even if one holds beliefs Liberation can be realized.

.....is a belief.

I have learned that searching for 'truth' can cause self suffering and often does cause it in one's inner life so I prefer to be at peace with life even if it is an illusion we are deluded with. That's really kind of you to say, thank you. It really depends on what one considers 'thoughts' and 'awareness' so it can happen that there is some misunderstanding between people in discussing it. In my view thoughts are a form of awareness, they are derived from the stimuli and sensations of our body and culminate in our mind but I perceive that we have many forms of awareness in our manifest experience. There is a form of awareness which we can perceive free from the influences of the self conscious and that does perceive the self conscious but isn't 'separate' from it. Thoughts are a product of the sense of self the body naturally creates for survival and has the effect of feeling a separation. So thoughts feel separated but we can perceive from that unified awareness as well.

I simply explained the way yearning contributes to self suffering, it's not about wrong or right. That's coming from your own desire to know the 'truth' creating your suffering by causing you to 'feel' like it's 'wrong'. I didn't say it was wrong, it is what it is. The concept of capital 'T' truth is a fabricated illusion of a dualism mindset which the ego uses to justify it's identity through knowing it. There just is what is and there is no what it isn't because... it isn't.

Most people pursuing non-dualism mistakenly interpret 'illusion' to mean 'does not exist' so go about denying and resisting the physical manifest. Illusion really means 'not as appears' so though our thoughts are something we experience in the manifest life they aren't as they appear. Thoughts are awareness from a limited perspective, it's awareness of the self and to create this perception the body creates a sense of self. As we expand our awareness it ceases to be limited to just our sense of self perception to recognize a unified perception beyond just the separation of self. So by not attaching to the separated perception we continue to realize the awareness of unified perspective. It's not a denying or resisting of the thoughts, we can accept and embrace them for what they are but it also isn't a clinging to them as sole identity. We are aware that thoughts are not as they appear and doesn't provide the context of the unity perspective we experience in awareness.

That's the yearning for answers and more that breeds discontent and can lead to self suffering that I was speaking about. Genuine liberation is freedom from that yearning and is the fulfillment of being at peace with what is in the moment.

I literally laughed out loud when I read a poster named @Truth Addict asking what's so special about truth, such a beautiful irony. Then as I'm reading this post that appears to be a kind of checklist of spiritual things to say I am wondering if all this is where you are at it sounds pretty amazing to be, just be at peace with it. Although, where you are really at seeps through your words, you aren't at peace with it, you are still desiring something more. This is the core of our discontent and can lead to suffering, the existential yearning that motivates all of our desire and craving. Quenching this yearning will bring a peace that transcends all meaning. If you are at peace in just being and the existential yearning has been quenched there is a fulfillment that creates the presence in which anything we experience is enough, there is no wanting more or something else. To quench the yearning is through appreciation of what is, simply savoring and enjoying the moment for what it is. If you had this 'existential bliss' there would be no questions to ask, no 'what's next' or 'what more', you would experience the whole, the fullness of it all. Which may sound like the opposite of the emptiness you asked about but in unity there is no difference between them, it's all one, it's complete. This....so concisely put.

"Wage slavery" is a state of mind which infects so very many from all economic strata that yes, the system is geared towards conditioning people into having. Chasing monetary gain like all materialistic pursuits as a means of identity and meaning enslaves one to self interest and is an unfulfilling craving whether one is a billionaire or flat broke.

Well, I won't suggest I know what either Spira or Maharishi meant because words are interpreted differently. Although, it seems to me from a mystical point of view and even a scientific point of view that thoughts are an accumulation of awareness in many forms and layers that culminates in the sensations in the mind called thoughts. Then another form of awareness in the present moment, our being now, is made aware of these mind sensations called thoughts that manifest in many forms such as inner dialog. memories, conceptual ideas, paradigm, emotions, intuition, impulses, urges. They are the way the body attempts to motivate our behavior to self survive. The awakening that leads to liberation is us freeing our aware being now from the identity of self conscious which is naturally occurring. In not being attached to that self identity serving psychological mechanism and what is produced by it we cease to be motivated and influenced by this source of self suffering.

Why would you ask if I'm interested in discussing to "deepen understanding" when you also say it can't be understood with the intellect? So which is it? Actually, never mind, I know the answer. I didn't intend to disturb you in your 'I am enlightened ask me anything' guru thread by pointing out the obvious so pardon me for interrupting your teaching of the incomprehensible using limited words. Peace.

I actually do understand it, you mistakenly understand illusion as to mean something 'doesn't exist' when it means 'a mistaken perception'. So ironically your perception of illusion is mistaken, it's not the words that are limited in this, it's your perception.