SOUL

I've met a few drainbows...

To say something which has an appearance does not exist because that appearance can be perceived other than the way it appears is like saying a rainbow isn't a rainbow because it isn't really the colors splashed across the sky as it appears it is. It potentially can be a rainbow of colors in the sky as well as being light refracted through water in an atmosphere as well as being layers of vibrations as well as being something perceived in the imagination of layers of vibrations as well as things I can't even describe all at once. All the words and concepts we use are trying to capture a story of experience so we can communicate to another we imagine is there the perception of awareness in being but are lacking for what we use them. The personified sense of self in our psychological mind thinking it knows 'what is' is what it does to cope with not knowing anything at all so we tell our self a story....tell me again what you know... I'm curious.... really, I love a good story.

Quite often the sense of self's personified manifestations take on an adversarial or toxic relationship within us and for those that do inner work it can become a kind of 'holy war' in how they try to eradicate this perception of separation. The word illusion is tossed around so regularly yet it seems like how one defines this word can establish the dynamic within our consciousness and it's constituent manifestations. If we define illusion as 'does not exist' it can set up a conflict between the sense of self that is the naturally occurring experience of out physical life and our awareness which can transcend the sense of separate self. If we instead define the word illusion 'not as appears' it allows for us to recognize the sense of self for what it is without setting up an adversarial dynamic within our consciousness. We can recognize that both the sense of separate self in it's naturally occurring form and the transcending of it in absolute sense of being can and does coexist. We can expand our awareness to include both of them in a harmonious relationship. Our absolute sense of well being will not be disturbed by the manifesting of the physical sense of separate self, the absolute well being will fill our whole conscious experience including the sense of separate self instead of the sense of separate self disrupting the absolute well being so cause self suffering. This is why it seems like so many seekers who define illusion as 'does not exist' will struggle for so long and rarely liberate from self suffering. They have created and perpetuated an adversarial dynamic within their consciousness and as long as they are alive with the physical body manifesting the sense of separate self this dynamic can persist. Yet if we define illusion as 'not as appears' we can see through the manifestations of self for what they are and still the absolute well being fills our consciousness, our whole being. We can then celebrate life, the joy, love, laugh, dance, mourn, cry, hurt and all it involves yet the transcendent absolute well being flourishes. So while some may say it's only a matter of semantics in the difference between the two definitions I suggest it creates how one perceives in awareness what dynamic unfolds in our consciousness and inner life.

@Loba As amazing as the visions and insights we can attain in awakening are these really the point of the inner work we do? The self seeks to adorn it's identity with those visions and insights from the experiences of awakening as someone would fill their home with baubles and trinkets from the trips they have taken. In liberation we realize freedom from self suffering so if these do not fulfill liberation then they are a distraction from it.

@Loba Even though we may chart our own path free from the influence of others it still may be that we become attached to our own stories and they can become anchors that stop our growth. If we have an epiphany or inspiring revelation this can create an deep connection to it in us and quite often the appreciation for it will grow into a clinging to it. Now it's understandable that we might cherish these insights and experiences since it has personal significance in our spiritual evolution although it is helpful to remind ourselves it still is an evolution. If we are continuing to transform our inner life eventually we will have to leave those behind as well. Quite often we may continue to circle back to them in hopes to rekindle that sensation of awe in awakening yet this can generate the attachment to them. There is nothing wrong or bad about them but they are like landmarks on a journey, if we keep returning to them we aren't really going to get anywhere because we are walking in circles.

Are you attached to these questions? Are you attached to getting answers? Are you attached to the answers you get? Are you attached to knowing and understanding so ask the questions seeking answers? You don't need to reply.... I'm not attached to the questions, getting the answers, the answers or knowing it.

Let's look at the definition of the word perfect and it will make sense. When people think of perfect they often go to the idea of flawless or an ideal standard. Although, there is also another idea of perfect I have highlighted by the larger size font: total, complete, lacking nothing essential and absolute. So when considering 'how is this perfect' we can understand it as being pure, absolute, total and complete...it's lacking nothing essential, including flaws. Flaws are included in this understanding of perfect because it is total and complete. We can reason through why we need the adversity, how it helps, what we can learn and we can rationalize how pain and suffering is necessary for us, how we can grow from it and it's role in the cycle of life. These intellectual pursuits are merely to satisfy our own desires to know why and to understand but they are just that, stories to satiate and protect our self identity. This dovetails into the message of the thread starter and it was right there simply in the definition of the word but we mostly overlook it.

This perspective I will be sharing is a challenging one and it isn't the first time I have shared it here, albeit not as extensively, and many other places as well. It isn't exclusive to this forum or this topic, in fact, it would be very unusual and a rarity to not experience it in life. There is a significant amount of priming that goes on in spirituality, well, in everything. We repeatedly get exposed to things like concepts and understandings that form paradigms in the mind. Books read, videos viewed, seminars attended and even in conversations with people all around us. You might see this as a positive thing to learn from others who have already experienced so gain insights and wisdom instead of wander aimlessly in a maze. Undoubtedly, many benefit from this and find significant progress from the sharing that comes from others. The issue that arises with this type of work is that we are exploring something that is formless so the concepts and understandings are merely stories that we project into the formless and not something that are innately there...because it's formless. Few realize this and fewer want to accept it. So even though these stories can help the only 'truth' that they represent is the significance that we give to them. These stories being handed down from generation to generation that even Leo was primed with and then goes on to influence others with are just a map....not the territory, which is formless. Sure, as we evolve the stories evolve with us and the current state of detail and complexity that is shared will eventually become antiquated even if they continue to provide guidance to others in the future. Although, as intricate as they are and become they are still just stories about something formless. I'm not a gamer but I understand human nature, when a new game comes out and the secrets about it get discovered, the loot boxes, the hacks and cheat codes, the tricks and tips that open new stuff and levels the players gets excited about it and they are obsessed with it all. These things that might have been benefits may also turn out to be detriments and what was once viewed as helpful may turn out to be hindrances. The stories that were intended to be guidance can often become distractions and stumbling blocks. Quite often what happens is that people become attached to the stories, they identify with the stories and they spend much time on the stories. They will discuss and compare stories with others in contention about the right and wrong or true and false of them. Even in reading this there will be some who agree or disagree with me even to the point they are compelled to chime in about it. Let me be clear, our liberation isn't dependent on our stories, in fact, the stories may inhibit liberation if we allow them to. Even more ludicrous would be to allow other's fascination with their stories to distract oneself from liberation let alone one's own fascination with our own stories to distract. Liberation includes freedom from the stories, the attachment to them and the self suffering that attachment creates. Wanting to understand someone's teachings is just wanting to understand their story and it's wanting to make it your own story. Seek liberation so your own story will unfold naturally and then ultimately we transcend the stories since.... our being is formless.

I came across him more than a decade ago and there was always something about him that was off putting but I could never really put my finger on what it was. I just watched some of his recent stuff and now it's very clear to me what it is. Very logical way of trying to systematize his experience and another who thinks their perception is the ultimate truth that most everyone but him can't understand. He holds alot of grudgy and judgmental energy much like Peterson does, in many ways he's a precursor to JP. This leads to a lack of well being in him and his effect on his followers doesn't seem geared towards well being, it's an exercise in 'I'm right' and 'I know the truth' in an egoic stroking. Then I came across some really yikes comments from him about eugenics...or as he called it 'soft eugenics' that he tried to backtrack from it as it appears he realized how this would be received. How people should apply to have children and other people, the ultra-intelligent would decide who is or isn't allowed to breed and what traits are the desired ones. Of course he put himself in the group of people who would be the deciders and how they should be the ones who controlled society....even though he constantly whines about the others who he doesn't like or respect he thinks controls society. Again this stinks of the self appointed authority of all that is right and good that Peterson also exudes in his attitude. Other than that his ideas are pretty common in the quantum consciousness ideology that has been circulating in the new age for like 50 years except he uses alot of complicated jargon to make it sound especially esoteric because he's still battling with a self induced conflict with a perceived opposition. We can see the fruit of someone's inner work in how they behave and for all his high minded ideas he comes across as still self suffering. So if liberation is something you seek in experience I'm not sure he's got much for you. It's not a matter or right or wrong, true or false and good or evil for me, it's about cessation of self suffering, liberation is the fruit I cultivate. Though to each their own way.

It is a common self justifying exercise for one to insist on projecting their own experience onto others. Through the perception of 'oneness' and the 'absolute' there is tendency to view it as universally 'true', that it's the only 'truth'. Is it not fulfilling to experience well being in your own perception of 'what is' that one has to tell others that your own view is the 'truth' for everyone? If they don't mirror the same your experience it's 'false' and they are delusional. Genuine liberation frees one from the desire, need or even the habit of 'truthifying' one's own experience and 'falsifying' another's experience. No matter how 'deep' one thinks they view from all of the perception is in our imagination. Being awareness doesn't require validation to be as it is.

There's really different aspects to what you are speaking of. First we have something of a desire that isn't satisfied with the physical, it's the spiritual churning one might call it. Once we have found contentment in just being present we experience no lacking and realize we are complete so the churning ceases. In this we are fulfilled with as it is and experience transcendent well being. Which brings me to the activities of life, if we approach them already fulfilled and all the joy of being that is expressed through us then we bring joy to the activity not seek joy from the activity. Our joy isn't dependent on the activity and it's acumen or accomplishment. This sort of orientation allows one to recognize which of the activities in life we do that actually resonates with our joy so it reflects it back. It feels as if joy is amplified by things that resonate with our transcending joy even though in liberation we experience a complete sense of well being and bliss once the spiritual churning ceases so it is already maxed out in us. This doesn't mean we stop doing the things we love, we actually have a complete joy we bring to them so can elevate the activity. Of course since that joy isn't dependent on them the struggles and challenges to refine them are steeped in the genuine joy of liberation not conditional appeasement of the self. I know the intuitive perspective would be to say that the spiritual path would also require alot of effort but the reality of it can be quite counter intuitive. Just being doesn't require any work at all, realizing that transcendent fulfillment in being present is the absence of attainment, it's recognizing already complete. So working hard to refine skill will allow one to achieve each next level but doing it while being present in realized completeness and fulfillment is an experience of joy that cannot be described though once one does experience it then it is understood.

Pardon me for parsing the map I hope this doesn't distract anyone from being present. 'only in the imagination' Imaginary are things that exist 'only in the imagination'. Our perception of everything happens 'only in the imagination'. Both of 'imaginary' and 'illusion' are something that happens in the imagination. Except that imaginary is something that only exists in the imagination but has no existence apart from the imagination though may be imagined about something that exists outside the imagination. Where as illusion is something that isn't as it appears as perception in imagination yet may have existence apart from the imagination even if our perceptions of it are only in the imagination. The conflation of 'imaginary', 'illusion' and 'imagination' into essentially the same meaning of 'does not exist' obscures the 'map' of understanding our perception and experience. The rock exists apart from our imagination but we only perceive it's existence in our imagination and it is when the rock hits our head that the rock and our imagination realize the 'oneness' of it all. It's a challenge to bring clarity to the nuanced explanations of the difference between these concepts behind the words that get thrown around so often in this discourse. Many from both the advocates and critics of this with even some of the most educated and involved in the discussion fall prey to the clouding up the understanding. Fortunately a clear understanding of this confusing buzz word salad isn't a requirement or precursor to being present, we can simply be it...no map is needed. We can experience liberation without any of this, liberation isn't a result from having the 'right' or 'true' map... more like from burning all the maps. Liberation is the fruit of consciousness in just being.

it is it is....

@Inliytened1 Did you notice your use of those words, too? Words are just part of the map. It appears you are trying to fit what I'm saying into your map which is why you imagine I have an 'Absolute Truth'. You may eventually cease to be distracted by the map, the map keys, the location, the destination and the directions on the map.

As soul I can confirm I go and come as I please...

So you must be just another jerkoff on a forum then....got it.

That's quite the buzz word salad you replied with. All those concepts you suggest are not imaginary.....the absolute this, that and other things are in the imagination of the mind. They are concepts that get psychologically primed into people's paradigm of understanding. Yea yea.... but you saw it in direct experience so it's absolute truth!...uh huh, the reason you interpreted the experience that way was because of the priming that happened. I wasn't exposed to those concepts when I initially had direct experience so my perspective wasn't of that interpretation and as I have been exposed to the concepts it doesn't mold the perspective in experience I have. This isn't about which is right or wrong, true or false and real or illusion. It's all in the imagination. Our experience of being awareness is formless so we will overlay concepts to help understand it. Some people say those conceptual interpretations are 'truth' which is just the way the mind 'trusts' the experience is 'true'. Every new experience is filtered through this conceptual paradigm to confirm it's 'truth'. Don't get attached to the conceptual paradigm, it's just a map and the map is not the territory yet the territory is formless so really has no map. It doesn't matter if a million sages use the same map as you do, it's not the formless territory, it's just an interpretation of experience. I know my reply might sound like a buzz word salad too but I had to use something you may understand. Our experience is all in the imagination.

Every interaction and perception of anything happens in the imagination of the mind. Everything from all physical senses of our body to the meaning that is gotten from arts or religion to the detailed explanations we get from mathematics and the scientific method. It's all in the imagination. Also as activity of the imagination is the inner work one does with the awareness, the consciousness expanding mystical experience. No matter how deep the revelations into 'truth' and 'reality' one thinks they are having through meditation and/or psychedelics it's all just in the imagination. So when people try to contrast 'real' vs 'imaginary' as if they have some genuine insight let's realize it's imagination. When someone tries to define what is 'truth' for everyone suggesting it's a universal factual reality because of what takes place in their own imagination it actually doesn't reflect the nature of existence. So as you explore your own conscious experience stay aware that it is only in your imagination.

You would have thought that the guy might do the smallest amount of effort to establish they aren't mistaken and looked up the definition of 'illusion' but alas it appears they don't know it. The basic first step in the discourse was a misstep, they build the whole argument about 'illusion' around it meaning 'not real' when the definition is more accurately stated as 'not as it appears'. Rookie mistake. After watching that video then bouncing around watching some others on other things I am exploring this video popped up on the sidebar in recommendations and I recognized Don from his Ted talk I watched years back and this video is a great discussion on the very subject. It takes a real scientific approach to addressing the meaning of when people say 'illusion'. Fascinating stuff for sure. Not sure I agree with everything said here but definitely is something to contemplate and consider.

Once one realizes pellucid then it's recognized all this staging and leveling of mystical experience can be a distraction from being present in awareness. One may notice that pellucid isn't actually on the color spectrum of this system...exactly!

Is Leo a dream character? More like a nightmare character! Amirite?

Well, sure, awareness of 'me' comes much earlier and quite honestly can be a more powerful motivator of behavior than the 'I' ls in many ways no matter what our age is.

All of us experience our first awakening in our youth when our consciousness finally matures to the point that we become aware of our consciousness, we awaken to our awareness and realize... 'I am!'. This is the moment when we finally are experiencing our consciousness with the meta-conscious aspect of it and not simply with the conditioned reaction to inner activity. An issue is we don't know it's happening, society doesn't alert us that it's happening or give us any insights to it's presence and how to use it. So we often blindly stay a slave to the conditioned mind for many more years, decades or even the rest of one's life if we don't ever have another awakening to our subconscious conditioning ruling the mind and behavior.

Peterson is a fervent believer in hierarchical authoritarianism and the socially enforced 'traditions' so anything that questions the hierarchy and explores nontraditional expression to him is chaotic evil which he sees as 'destroying' his safety blanket belief system so he fears and hates it. It's one thing to derive meaning from the traditional but it's another thing to assign morality on it which Peterson joins in with the religious conservative ideologues that calls evil anything or anyone that doesn't adhere to what they deem 'traditional' values at any given moment. Traditions change and evolve with society so if some people are using it to publicly denigrate and actively discriminate against those that don't believe as they do it's antithetical to individual freedoms that he and those others talk out of the other side of their mouth do profess to support.

It appears that even one liners are too much when one is tired of language....