[(Advice For Leo) Epigenetics and Motivation for Practice]

I also think that stream entry is not to be taken lightly. It is definitely possible if you train systematically but this first awakening attainment means that suffering goes away radically AND permanently.

So when you wake up in the morning at 6 a.m. and you have to go to work or school, if you think 'Oh I don't want to get up, it is so cold outside' and if you suffer as a result of that, then you are not a stream enterer. 

When you speak with your family and friends, if you default to relating with people with the self agenda in mind rather than seeing them as yourself,  you are not a stream enterer.

If sleepiness, pain and frustration breaks up your connection to your sense of no-boundry, then you are not a stream enterer.

Awakening has high standards. But this radical change is possible with retreat level practice if you are consistent with it.

Again, I'm not a stream enterer. But my experiences are heavily leaning towards this level of attainment. 

As a practice program, I've trained with Culadasa's breath work and Shinzen Young's noting and gone techniques in daily life. Also added self-enquiry once I've hit Stage 7 in Culadasa's model of samadhi stages.

Do these systematically AND intensely.

I don't personally see how anyone can get to stream entry with a beginner level practice like 60 mins formal sit with micro hits in daily life. (unless you have a spontaneous awakening out of nowhere without systematic training like Eckhart Tolle which has a very low probability in my opinion).

At some point, I highly suggest going up to 90-120 mins SDS sits consistently. That is where my transformation had occurred. Also very deep relaxation and noting practice in daily life helped me continue the momentum of formal sessions.

Hope these suggestions help

 

 

[(Advice For Leo) Epigenetics and Motivation for Practice]

5 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

@ardacigin I was curious about how your  direct experience with 5-meo is integrated into your view. How have your personal experiences under the influence of 5-meo shaped your view? It’s as if you are describing the essence of scuba diving - I’m asking how your own personal experience scuba diving is integrated into that view. That is a key component. 

What you write about genetics and epigenetics is somewhat true in a general sense, yet there is an underlying inaccuracy regarding the actual mechanistic model of genetics and epigenetics at the molecular and cellular level. This map is really important when designing a larger, more holistic map. At this point, there are statements in your view that are not aligned with the actual mechanics of genetics and epigenetics. 

You say mindfulness changes the physical mind and DNA in fundamental ways yet don’t seem to have an understanding of the physical nature of DNA and how it is inter-connected to epigenetic mechanisms. For example, if someone inherits an allele with a particular missense mutation in the hemoglobin gene, the phenotype of anemia will arise. Epigenetics won’t change that. Epigenetic modifications will not change the altered primary structure of the protein product - hence it’s secondary and tertiary structure will be still be altered and it will be nonfunctional. Modifying DNA methylation patterns and nucleosome structure will have no influence on that. You can spend a lifetime in mindfulness and trying to alter DNA structure through epigenetic modifications and it would be a complete waste of time. 

In other contexts, epigenetic changes are play an integral role. For example, after traumatic events and abuse DNA methylation patterns are altered throughout the genome - which can alter gene expression in the brain. These alterations are helpful to cope with the acute event in the moment, yet the epigenetic alterations can persist for years - even decades. These changes can cause phenotypes at the organismal level - such as susceptibility to anxiety. For example, a gene involved in the repression of cortisol is epigenetically altered such that basal cortisol levels rise in the person - this can persist for years. Cortisol is a key stress hormone and increased levels can contribute to the physiological sensations of anxiety. Here, your view is applicable. If we can figure out a way to reprogram the epigenetic DNA methylation pattern back to normal for key genes, the physiology will be improved. Biochemists are currently working on how to do this, yet it is extremely challenging for many reasons. What you propose is an alternate method to reset to epigenetic methylation pattern - perhaps through mindfulness training. This is an area I think has a lot of promise and I am currently experimenting on myself.

Multigenetic traits become far more complex and is an interplay between inherited allelic sequences, environmental input and epigenetic modifications. Yet your view is not recognizing the underlying mechanism of how epigenetics is working. In my view, this leads to a distorted view you are proposing that is only somewhat accurate. It is over-generalized inaccurately. In particular, because it is not making the distinction between variations in allelic sequences and the mechanics of epigenetic modifications.  Imo, that relationship is key to clearing up the underlying inaccuracies in your view. I’m not saying it is fundamentally bad or wrong. I think you are onto something powerful, yet just need some tweaking.

Leo is making a point that is true in a certain context and you are making a point that is true in a certain context. Yet you are not seeing this because you are not making an important distinction between genetics and epigenetics, which I will explain in laymans terms below. I would be happy to go into more detail if you would like to build a more accurate thesis.

Epigenetic modifications are a key feature of DNA structure and gene expression, yet it does not alter the sequence of DNA.  That is the ”epi” part of epigenetics. That is really important when creating bigger picture models. For example, your “starting point” concept is only partially true. It’s true in the sense that one could consider their allelic make-up as a “starting point” and epigenetics can influence that “starting point”. However, epigenetics is not altering the underlying code, it is influencing how that code is expressed. This is a really important distinction to understand the role epigenetics plays and how we can use this model to rewire the brain. I think epigenetics can be a powerful model in rewiring the brain and I hope it can be combined with practices such as Reiki. Yet one needs to be knowledgeable and skilled with the underlying mechanics to use it wisely and effectively. 

I’m impressed with your big picture thinking and the way your are integrating multiple fields together. When creating holistic views, I think it’s important to recognize gaps and holes. In this case, I think you point to some insights, yet there are gaps in direct experience and the underlying mechanics of genetics. Imo, adding this in would create a deeper, more accurate  holistic view.

Thank you for your explanation. You definitely make good points about genetics and I tend to agree with you overall. It is important not to over-generalize everything. 

As to 5 Meo experience, I had it very similar to Leo's situation. Amazing insights that don't stick. When I get more serious about mindfulness to a point where my ordinary experience started to get low-level psychedelics for the most of the day, I've tried psychedelics again and I no longer had the craving of awakening in meditation.

Trying psychedelics before solidifying in intermediate/advanced stages produced a lot of frustration, expectations and demotivation for me. Again, very similar to Leo's situation.

Once I've started doing 2 hour SDS in cross legged posture with industry strength level mindfulness in daily life for 5+ hours every single day, my life basically started to reflect the full-on retreat intensity.

First of all, physical pain of sitting cross legged has disappeared for the most part. My experiential understanding of pain has changed on a neurological level since pain is essentially subjectively experienced through the brain. This is an insight experience Shinzen talks about. Equanimity +Pain = Purification

Then once I've learned how to observe pain with clarity, I've seen that it flickers on and off on a subliminal level. This is an insight experience into impermanence. This tends to happen 1 hour and 20 mins into a SDS sit where the pain solidifies and then starts to flicker and flow if you can exercise equanimity with concentration until 1 hour and 45 mins mark. (For me of course)

At that point, you experience a radical reduction in suffering while maintaining the same level of pain which gives you the insight into suffering.

As you constantly have these insight experiences, your psyche starts to embody them and turns them into actual insights where your daily life is perceived through these insights. They start to become permanent.

Then more months have passed and I've started to experience how the sense of self is thought, image and feel activity. How it wells up and reduces in intensity depending on external situations. Once I've had strong introspective awareness of self-referential thought, image and feel activities, I've started to have insight experiences into no-self.

I've also started doing self-inquiry at this point and it was VERY effective. I could go very deep with it. I've also started doing the 'gone' technique of Shinzen Young. 

At this point I've started to increase the SDS sits to 3 hour period and then everything started to break down. That's when I've had my first 'close to awakening experience'. 

It didn't stick as in stream entry but it definitely wasn't some samadhi state. I was getting close to penetrating the sense of being an individual self. This certainly wasn't 5 meo level intensity of insight, but I would say that it was a more diluted form of it both in intensity and insight clarity. Although my mind couldn't penetrate very much, probably this path goes 5 meo levels of clarity if I've practiced for 40+ years.

Anyways, the more impermanence I've observed with clarity, the more my mind is transforming the rigid self to a flowing thought-image-feel activity. 

I've also started to integrate more compassion and understanding to my relationships with people. I'm still working on this and it is challenging for me on many levels. But mindfulness really helps in developing compassion in my observation.

Even though my daily experience of life moment by moment is still permeated by some level of suffering (even in samadhi states) and even though I would not qualify my attainment as stream entry (because my experience of self-liberation is not permanent), the training I've been going through is heavily suggesting that things are moving in that direction.

Hopefully, this helps some of you understand where I'm coming from and maybe become a motivation for deeper levels of practice.

Let me know your thoughts and feel free to tell me about your own experiences in meditation.  

 

 

 

 

 

[(Advice For Leo) Epigenetics and Motivation for Practice]

12 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

I've experienced 5-meo several times and I'm a bit perplexed by this statement. Could you please relate your direct experience with 5-meo to this contextualization?

Your statements about genetics seem vague to me. It doesn't seem like you are making the distinction between inherited gene sequences / alleleic variations and epigenetic modifications. Your statement could be partially true in a certain context - yet it seems like you are conflating two very distinct genetic concepts - which leads to misinterpretation. If possible, could you clarify your view regarding the distinctions I mentioned above?

Without making the distinction, it's like one person saying "the light doesn't work because the lightbulb is burned out" and the other person saying "well, just flip the light switch on". With the distinction between lightbulb and light switch, the statement makes no sense. What good is flipping on the lightswitch if the bulb is burned out? 

Hi. Let me clarify some of your questions.

I meant that since 5 meo dmt is a very powerful insight tool, it can demotivate people once they go back to the cushion.

Since you no longer have access to these insights, subliminal levels of craving and aversion is produced in the psyche.

Especially if you dont have consistent access to intermediate/advanced levels  of  concentration, jhanas or samadhi states, then it will be very challenging to detach from these mind made distractions.

Cravings are one of THE fundamental obstacles which gets in the way of stream entry. 

And after a deep 5 meo insight, what is a left is a residue of thought-image activity of 5 meo assisted awakening which is not actual awakening in the present moment.

And I think this can delude many beginner-intermediate practitioners. Thinking that they have attained these insights in any transformative and permanent way.

This residue of awakening as a seperate experience is the potential problem which nags the meditator on the cushion preventing progress into deeper levels of insight without psychedelic assistance.

As to genetics, industry strength level mindfulness  changes not only the brain physically, but also DNA in fundamental ways.

In my opinion, epigenetics are still in their infancy. Many scientists apart from people like Rupert Sheldrake and Deepak Chopra are severely underestimating epigenetic modifications. They are more powerful and effective than mainstream science makes it out to be.

You  can research this a little more online so let me address your other question.

Of course, some people are genetically gifted meaning they start this path of meditation with relatively high levels of concentration, awareness, sensory clarity and equanimity. Or if not, these people can develop these skills a lot faster. 

But that doesnt mean people who doesn't have these can't develop them fast and exponentially. These are skills for a reason. They can be RADICALLY developed regardless of your starting point.

The rate of growth can always be exponential if you practice systematically AND deliberately but how deep you'll go in the same amount of practice time compared everyone else will be naturally different because everyone starts out in different phases of life.

I tend to think that combined with 5 meo dmt's intimidating insight clarity and subliminal limiting beliefs about genetics gets in the way of Leo's practice. This is my personal observation

Let me know your thoughts and I'll clarify more if you want.

 

[(Advice For Leo) Epigenetics and Motivation for Practice]

I wanted to talk about a few things about genetics when I've heard Leo talk about how some people are genetically gifted. 

As a meditator myself, I can see how Leo might peg his mindfulness skills to below average thinking that he doesn't have what it takes to glean these permanent insights naturally.

First of all, his very deep 5 Meo insights are coloring his perceptions in negative ways. It is like hearing about piano for the first time and then seeing Mozart play some insane piece and feeling discouraged. 

Second of all, I think genetics do play a role in the beginning. But Leo is way past the initial beginning stages. As far as I know, he has been meditating consistently for 5+ years and he'd attempted many 10 day+ retreats meditating anywhere from 6-12 hours a day. Even if he might think that the quality of the meditation is very low and everything is boring, his physiology is constantly changing with these retreats. I think he only needs more structural and systematic training rather than the multiperspective approach. Going deep both in formal sits and daily life generally occurs with application and rotation of 2-3 very solid techniques. 

So making the bad genetics argument seems like a limiting belief for Leo's situation. Epigenetics also shows us that our genes are NOT permanent and fixed. 

Also maybe holding off on psychedelics a little bit can help the momentum of daily practice turn more into 10 day retreat intensity as Leo have told us that psychedelics are 'distruptive'.

Other than that, even if one may feel demotivated, with consistent mindfulness practice, samadhi states abd psychedelic states are possible to attain naturally.

I personally experience canabbis levels of  experience on a daily basis for the most of the day with minimal effort.

Also experiencing semi-permanent insights (like impermanence and causal dependency of everything) are possible even in a 3-4 years into systematic training. Hopefully no self and stream entry soon afterwards.

Leo's videos on body relaxation, SDS and posture training are really good to implement as well.

I dont find self inquiry to be productive BEFORE mastering samadhi, concentration and mindfulness.

First thinning out the sensory experience with mindfulness and then asking 'who am I' is much more effective in the long run.

So if you've been slacking off in concentration, maybe adding some spiritual weights there can help a lot.

Peter Ralston's ' dry insights straight away approach doesnt seem to be the best approach for most people in my observation.

Other than that, keep practicing everyone. This practice really works.

Much love