hundreth

This preoccupation with calling out academics and scientists. Yes, science is not the ultimate truth. But science is just a tool no different from a screwdriver. Of all the problems in the world today, we would be better served to listen MORE to scientists and academics, but you spend about 50% of your content shitting on them. The world is wrought with science denialism, and you're behaving like we're all praying to the church of sciencology. I think you can speak about this in a more nuanced way.

Obviously there are many racists in Israel. My point was more that this isn't the foundation of historical Zionism or even modern day Zionism. If you asked most Zionists or Israelis if they believe Palestinians are inferior, you would see that overwhelmingly the answer is no. It isn't the highest purpose either, which is simply to have a state for Jews. We already did. Jews came to the United States and settled here to avoid persecution. We also moved to Israel and settled there to avoid persecution. For the most part we are doing fine. If we were undergoing decades of the type of persecution you see, and there was a better option, we would take it. That's what my family did. They left Iraq and moved to Israel. They were better off for it. They were ethnically cleansed. It is what it is. No one gives a shit now. No one said all of us Jews were the same, but we all came to these melting pot countries for better lives. It would be infinitely more difficult to integrate European and Middle Eastern Jews from all over the region than to integrate Palestinians into neighboring Arab countries. Perhaps you're right about the political situation. I don't expect most Israelis to have my perspective, or generally the population at large because society is mostly black / white right or wrong, good or bad, victim or oppressor, etc. Your movement mostly views everything from this victim / oppressor lens. Eventually this animal will eat its own tail. I see the devilish ways the Israelis behave. But you can't seem to see that the Palestinians and wider Arab world are also engaging in the same shenanigans. With the overall goal to conquer the entire region and NOT have a Jewish state by any means necessary.

You were just complaining about how there were no arguments. I put forth an argument, and your response is to call us blind followers. No counter arguments. You did not address what I wrote at all. I don't blindly follow Leo. I respect his opinions, but have challenged his ideas and positions many times.

I do think what's happening there is shameful. That said, the comparisons to the Holocaust and Nazis are also disingenuous. Israelis do not have some specific racial bias against Palestinians or view them as inherently inferior, violent, immoral or whatever else the Nazis believed of the Jews. It is fundamentally a land dispute. Even at their worst, Israelis do what they do because they want one contiguous nation without internal threats. I hate using the term Zionism because its so loaded, but even if you looked at Zionist writings from its founders, there is nothing inherently personal or vindictive specifically against Palestinians. This being framed as a racial issue is wrong. And even if you agree that this is a genocide by whatever definitions, a genocide is not a holocaust. So anti israel voices speak from both sides of their mouths. They use technical semantic definitions to call this a genocide, and then they use the genocide designation to compare it directly to the Holocaust. It's wrong. If you view the conflict from different lenses, both sides have a case as being a victim. If you view it myopically with just the Israelis and the Palestinians, the Palestinians are the victims. If you view it as the Jews / Israelis and then the rest of the world including Europe and the surrounding Arab nations, it looks quite different. All of this insanity for this small sliver of land that Jews felt their survival hinged on. Meanwhile, there is so much Muslim and Arab land. Until the 60s, they all viewed themselves as Arabs, now it has become this new identity whose entire foundation is destroying Israel. If the tables were turned, and they were, the surrounding Jewish nations would gladly take those refugee Jews in and integrate them properly. Which is what happened when they were all ethnically cleansed from the surrounding Arab nations. Why? Because living a normal and prosperous life is more important than this never ending violence over a sliver of land. Is it fair? No. Very little of human history is. This whole pro Palestine thing has swung into an extreme over correction in my view. This fad will likely end soon, as the movement has been hijacked by anti-semites, grifters, and people with no meaning in their lives who just want to cling to this issue. Israel WILL lose in many ways, and the West will eventually be forced to reckon with the fact that the Palestinians themselves are a barrier to peace. Right now they view the Palestinians as having no agency. As the power balance shifts, this will become untenable.

So the universe was created from a book written by humans which addresses stories and wisdom from a tiny sliver of time. To understand how tiny that sliver of time where the Bible was relevant is, imagine this: If we want a representative moment for the writing of the Bible, ~500 BCE is quite reasonable. Now put 100 years against cosmic time The universe is approximately 13.8 billion years old. So: \frac{100}{13,800,000,000}\times100 = 0.0000007246% So a 100-year period represents about: 0.0000007% of the universe’s history. Or equivalently, the universe’s current age contains about 138 million separate 100-year intervals. And there’s an even more intuitive way to see it. Compress the universe’s entire history into one year Imagine: Big Bang = January 1, 12:00:00 AM Today = December 31, midnight Then one cosmic-calendar second represents roughly: 13.8\text{ billion years}/31.56\text{ million seconds}
\approx437\text{ years} That means: 100 years ≈ 0.23 seconds.

Yes, that's the point. This was not celebrated in Israel and his assassin was viewed as a radical extremist both domestically and abroad. It was a tragic and traumatic event in Israel. The way you talk about Israeli society's motives, there should have been celebrations and euphoria in the streets. I don't really care for all the buckets like "Zionists" and "Liberal Zionists" which have just become a meme and straw man to attack all of Israeli society. Many of us have been for a two state solution both before Oct 7 and after. For decades before, in fact. So I'm not sure what message has been reverted. Your interpretation is that there's only two Israelis, genocide or mow the lawn. Can't say I agree. It's a cynical world view that doesn't help in any way. Even if you're right, you dismiss this side and Palestinians are destroyed faster? What have you accomplished? We also don't care if you "support Israel." It is simply being practical. The only path forward that results in the least violence and tragedy is a two state solution. There are Jews & Israelis who support that. You can call their bluff and work with them. You might find that instead of being accused of being genocidal maniacs all the time, these parts of society would respond better and there may be enough built up pressure to effect some change. On the other hand, insisting on this cynical world view and continually advocating for endless "one-state" Palestinian resistance pushes away Jews and ultimately harms more Palestinians as the right becomes more powerful and continues their campaign. Fighting for a Palestinian state is worthwhile. Fighting to eliminate the evil Jewish ethno state as a matter of principle is a exercise in futility and delusion with tragic consequences.

Fair enough, but I don't support Likud. I also don't think the average Israeli is privy to all the manipulation going on by Bibi and those guys. They mostly vote Likud from a fear and security concern standpoint.

I'm sorry but that's just not true. I hate the term "Zionists" but I will play along. Two state solution has been a mainstream goal for both American Jews and Israelis for decades. The peace talks breaking down, Yitzhak Rabin's assassination and all related events throughout history are viewed as great tragedies both for American "zionists" and Israelis. I don't know what games politicians were playing behind the scenes but if you actually spoke to the people, they were vastly overwhelmingly in favor of two states. It is true that this has shifted in recent years, but what you said is a mischaracterization. Why don't you pull up the polls for Israelis over the decades instead of just the Palestinians? It was a good faith attempt. When Hamas was elected and shooting rockets into Israel, they were not quoting Ariel Sharon's chief aid or whatever conspiracy theories you dug up. So my point stands, any partial correction is viewed as offense and justification to attack. That said, I'd love to see that material. Not that it would change much, you're really cherry picking quotes from individuals and trying to map that to Ariel Sharon's intentions or the entire nation's. Ok, like I said. Where's the Israeli polls? Conveniently left out. If they show similar numbers would that change your conclusions? Of course not. Spoiler alert: They are basically the same numbers. I agree that Israel has done a lot to sabotage. But let's be clear when you say Israel here, you're talking about politicians. I don't know who these "Liberal Zionists" are that you're referring to. The leaders of the left in Israel? Or regular people? I'm in favor of pressuring Israel to negotiate the Arab peace initiative. You and I have already had that discussion. Most of us would like to see a two state solution. You are arguing that because Israeli leaders have sabotaged two state ideals (Palestinian leaders have too), then it must therefore be a zero sum game going forward. Ok, if you believe that, it is a guaranteed lose-lose. I think if you fought alongside the liberal jews you hate to pressure for two states, you would see a lot of support. But ultimately, it seems you'd rather see mutually assured destruction. You'd like to double down on this zero sum game, urge Palestinians to fight to the death. It will not end well.

Ok, but why do you revert to the same tired talking points that have little to do with the content I posted? Zionism this, Zionism that. I don't care about Zionism. Zionism already happened. Israel is here, it exists. The question is how to move forward. The illuminating part of the video I posted is that Palestinians themselves say they will never stop "resisting" and trying to reclaim ALL of the land. Jews & Israelis will never give up their state. It seems your quotes are designed to morally justify Palestinians endlessly fighting to "rid themselves" of the danger. Ok, so then you concede this is ultimately a zero sum game? Let's stop circling around it. If it's a zero sum game, then it is a war. That's what anti Israel voices have been arguing against for years, that it is not a war. You can't have it both ways. I'm starting to realize that far right Israelis and far left pro Palestinian progressives have a lot more in common than we previously thought. They both view the conflict as a zero sum game. The Israelis are more honest that this is a war. The Palestinian side hides behind historical quotes and moral rationalizations to re-label war as resistance.

I think this is important, and I don't know if these responses are cherry picked or not, but I suspect they are not. I believe that many Israelis fear exactly this. That any concession will be used to further strengthen the "resistance" and decimate any concept of Israel or a Jewish state in the region. It is analogous to the Gaza withdrawal. Israel made a concession, and then Hamas was elected and started sending rockets in. Now anti Israel voices will say its because the concessions weren't enough. Israel removed its civilians and military presence from the region, but because they didn't FULLY make Gaza autonomous overnight then it is justification to attack. This game can be played endlessly.

This was hard to watch.

Russia / Ukraine is not really a clean comp. Ukraine did nothing to Russia. They also pose no existential threat to Russia in any way. Russia's ambitions are completely resources driven. Some commentators have said that the threat to join NATO and isolate Russia has actually driven Russia to behave this way, and that is an explanation for how there are some threats to Russia but it is no where near the scale of Israel. We're comparing Russia to a nation the size of New Jersey which just experienced a terror attack the magnitude of ten 9/11s. Tell me which nation on earth would not respond in extreme measures to something like that? You can justify it all you want, but if your neighbors killed so many of your friends and family, you would become radicalized. We say the same for the Palestinians, they do what they do because of the hurt they feel. I think the world generally understands that the middle east is much less cut and dry than Russia / Ukraine. Ukraine has never declared war on Russia and lost, and then had a decades long subjugation and never ending conflict as a result.

Yeah, a de-militarized zone... which really matters when a militarized nation on that land declares war on you. At least try to make sense.

You aren't factoring the main issue which is geographical. The West Bank is strategically located on high ground which cuts through the center of Israel. If a militarized Palestine + other Arab nations were to attack Israel from this vantage it would be basically impossible to defend. Yes, it would be an existential threat. I'm not saying that alone is a reason not allow them to have said state, I'm just pointing out that your analysis was incomplete.

Yeah, I think the reasonable security concern is that much of what Palestine would be belongs on a high ground area cutting across the center of Israel which Israel literally would not be able to defend IF the Palestinians + the wider Arab world decided they wanted to. So perhaps the Palestinians wouldn't, but IF they did it would be the disastrous. That said, at this point it almost feels like Israel needs to accept that risk despite this reality and take a leap of faith. If that day ever comes, this would actually be a justified time for the U.S. to intervene. If Israel is actually under existential threat, they would be justified in using the full weight of their forces. The script would change.

I wish that was the overall consensus. It seems like that has shifted towards Palestine from the river to the sea. Both far left and far right are against the two state solution. The left accuses anyone in favor of two state to be "buying time for Palestinian ethnic cleansing." Meanwhile they push for a far less realistic and more violent one-state concept.

My understanding was this is why it wasn't seriously considered. If they are in good faith not insisting on it and being reasonable, then I'm for it. I'd have to read more into it. Lol, you're funny dude. Yes, because I'm under the impression they insist on right of return means that all two staters aren't serious. Genius level reasoning.

Starts at around 17 minutes, but this is an interesting discussion about Krystal Ball's contention that a Jewish state would always be a Jewish supremacist state. Prior to this, Norm Finkelstein challenges the use of the word Zionism as meaningless and encourages us not to use it because it has so many meanings to so many people, which I agree with. He then goes on to explain that a Jewish state is not inherently Jewish supremacist, though there is a majority population issue and open question. He also compares this to the UK being an Anglican state or Ireland being a Catholic state. He is more more nuanced on the issue than Krystal and many of you here.

The Arab peace initiative which insists on the right of return? Right of return = coded end of Israel Let's not beat around the bush. It's a poison pill. We could have leaders with courage to kickstart new peace initiatives directly with the Palestinians though in search of a two state solution. We need to stop this bullshit that the settlers have ended the chance for one. This is convenient for far leftists who hate the idea of Israel and want to see it destroyed under any circumstances. Israel has previously removed all settlers from Gaza. There are other solutions which don't require resettlement. There are many ways around that. Pushing against the two state solution only extends the conflict and makes it a toxic zero sum game, but leftists think they are doing something just and moral.

What a piece of shit this guy is....

This is a really good representation of how Israelis actually think IMO. This guy has actually interacted with and spoken to more Palestinians directly than 99% of people on the planet.

I agree with you. Israel is still operating under that same mentality and biting off way more than they can chew. For awhile it was war. Then it became a standstill. Neither side agrees to the terms of the other. They have an endless cycle of hurting another. Endless cycles of hate building. This is the tragic outcome.

Mischaracterization of history. Palestinians were not in the position to decide whether Jews came to the land or not. The British were. The Palestinians did not take this risk Lol. This is cartoonish. Jews came to the land to flee persecution, not as part of a political movement. They lived in relative peace. Later, a political movement shaped a new conflict, and a war ensued. Those are different circumstances. You can't say things would be the same before and after a literal war. Now you're trying to paint this picture like Palestinians themselves uniquely cared about welcoming Jews and in response they were destroyed. No. The British promised the Jews land there, there were negotiations for how to split it. Jews said yes to a minority of the land with no ill will towards Palestinians. Palestinians said no under any circumstances and launched a war. They lost. Jews have no unique hatred or resentment towards Palestinians. They just wanted a home and safe place to live. As for the Arab peace initiative, it is always the right of return that is the sticking point. I mean I'd agree with you that even without that the crazies in power in Israel today wouldn't agree, but I don't think that was always the case. I'd personally agree with you on 1967 borders and would be fine with it minus the right to return. Also certainly not everything Israel does is justified.

Yes, we also cannot know what would have happened. @Raze believes in this childish notion that the Palestinians or Arabs would never do anything to harm the Jews. They are perfectly innocent and do no wrong in every scenario. Jews, especially after WW2 will never take that risk. Nevermind that Arabs literally did ethnically cleanse the Jews from neighboring nations. But oh, that's okay because Jews from Europe did something bad Zionist blah blah. So then it doesn't count, right??

What does "simply stop occupying Palestine" mean? If it is no further expansion or greenlighting a two state solution, sure. But I don't think that's what it is. Also, Iran very openly declares they want to annihilate Israel. Those early Zionists weren't as centrally organized as they are today. You had different factions behaving in vastly different ways. As for Israel's demand for a Jewish state, this was part of a two state negotiation over at the time British land post WW2 where the most giant chunk of land was already given to Jordan. Within Palestine itself, the Jews had already agreed to less than half of the land, so then how were they demanding the majority of the country leave? That is just false. The Palestinians were only open to having 100% of the land, and so war broke out and they lost. What do you mean the two states I demand wants x,y,z? How do you know what I want? I believe there is a path towards two states, but its not commonly spoken about as an option. The cleanest idea IMO is to leave the settlers within areas designated as Palestinian land. There could be certain groups, both Palestinian and Jewish who live under each other's borders with dual citizenship and special status. The settlers could be part of that, but they would not be entitled to their own police force or security perimeter. They would live under Palestinian law. If they don't like it, they should move back to Israel proper. I think that is the simplest path forward.