hundreth

I agree with you that support for Israel is dropping. I just don't think this will ultimately change the outcome. The Israelis aren't going to self destruct because of international pressure. There will either need to be a two state peace plan or an all out war where Israel is militarily defeated. In which case, from the river to the sea would become the reality where Jews are wiped out. The rest is fantasy.

Cool story bro.

People are individuals. That's why these blanket attacks on individuals are stupid. Even if you believe a nation represents you, that shouldn't excuse any form of antisemitism or Islamophobia. That is the message we should be spreading... not hey Jews you should blame Israel! or... hey Muslims if you identify with being xyz you shouldn't complain about Islamophobia!

I've never seen anyone argue that Muslim nations should be blamed for Islamophobia and that Muslims should be upset with those nations in response to Islamophobia. Show me where in practice anyone has made this argument? Yet it's done to Jews. The double standard is crazy.

I believe the main hang up there were allusions to something like the right of return which is a non starter to negotiations with Israel. There were likewise many agreements the Palestinians rejected for other reasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Peace_Initiative There were efforts by some Israelis to counter but I don't think they went anywhere either unfortunately.

That is the general sentiment most Israelis have. There are always opportunities to improve your circumstances and focus on a good life. That's what Israelis do. It is very obvious to them how they would handle the same situations vastly differently. And it feels like they would rather hurt us than help themselves.

You're just defining arbitrary goalposts.

And Syria and Egypt and Iraq and pretty much any Muslim nation which has enacted violence on it's own citizens or others? Practically speaking we don't do that. We don't tell Muslims they should blame Muslim nations for our behavior towards them. We dissuade Islamophobia without pretenses.

Should Muslims blame a particular nation each time one of them does something wrong and islamophobia is the result? Do you sing the same tune then?

Very simple, because of an increase in violence towards Jews.

As I said, all propaganda aside I would bet any sum of money that if you sampled a random population from each side you would have a greater percentage of Palestinians who would like to genocide the Jews. Now you can say that's because of what Israel has done, but it doesn't change that.

Textbooks is a nice cherry-picking. Very creative. https://unwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/2023-Report-UNRWA.pdf There are countless videos of the Palestinian school system and what they teach.

You are unaware of the Palestinian school curriculum? Would you like to revisit that? Seems like a waste of time for the purposes of this thread. What do you think breeds more pro genocidal sentiment, the Palestinian super anti-semitic + highest virtue is killing Jews school system or the Israeli one which focuses on general ed, science, etc + some masking of reality like the Nakba. The schooling wayyyy closer to reality is the Israeli one.

I would venture to say that if you sampled both populations side by side a much larger percent of Palestinians would want to genocide the Jews than the other way around. All your statistics regarding this are anecdotes and polls sourced from a left leaning Israeli publication. There is no such publication on the Palestinian side. There is no such thing as internal criticism. When you look at the Palestinian school curriculum, a large part of it is the most blatant and violent antisemitic propaganda imaginable. This isn't something veiled. They teach them from day one to annihilate Jews. Nazi Germany was defeated in a world war where they were trying to conquer all of Europe. It had nothing to even do with Jews.

I am in the US. They are terrified.

Good one. I'm not one who feels personally threatened but I can tell you from my interactions they are scared shitless.

I can't really speak for Israelis but in my view trying to rationally understand Trump's actions are an exercise in futility. He has the emotional stability of a toddler and his inclinations change like the wind. Add to that all the warring sub factions within his administration vying for his attention and influence. All you can really say is that he's less concerned with upsetting Bibi than Biden was. If something benefits Trump in the short term, be it monetarily or a quick ego boost for bringing back an American - he will pursue. He does not actually have a cohesive vision or plan.

Very funny. Do you truly believe this? if so, you are precisely the delusional lefty Leo was referring to. You also literally did exactly what I pointed out, which is to demonize all of Israeli society and paint them as "rotten." You conveniently didn't answer my follow up questions. If you even prove this is true, what purpose does it serve you? What do you hope to achieve? Let's say everyone agrees Israelis are inherently morally corrupt and "rotten." What then?

I guess I just disagree with your conclusions over what effects these levers will have. By the time your plan has enough of a theoretical effect the damage will be done. There will be nothing left to fight for.

Yes but that is the point, the restriction on Israel's actions are a result of internal pressures. Whether it is a slowdown or cessation of action. In Israel there are internal criticisms from prominent figures. Raze downplays that, but it is important. We don't really have an equivalent on the other side. The idea was never to scapegoat everything on Bibi, but to demonstrate there are meaningful factions within Israeli society which can influence outcomes. Do you believe that Israelis or Palestinians are inherently morally corrupt? Probably not. And even if you did, what purpose would proving that serve? The intentions behind my previous posts were to shift the discussions into more practical terms. I don't believe endlessly pontificating on who is more evil between the IDF / Hamas serves any purpose whatsoever. It was cute in the initial months after the war to revisit all the history and gain some context. Now we have done that, and where I once saw a more black / white situation I now see shades of gray. I was wrong. I believe there are some of you who still hold these black / white childish characterizations. It feels like your primary purpose is to promote a broad demonization narrative and not much else. I don't see any substance aside from Israel bad / West bad. I think you believe this is the main lever to pull because if enough people believe it, pressure will be put on the US to halt weapons and ammunitions? You think this will end the war? 1. Public opinion isn't even close to influencing the US government's actions regarding Israel as the US government is just as motivated. 2. Halting weapons / ammunitions from Israel will not change the outcome, it will only slow it down. Israel will find another way and already has enough resources. In fact, the less tethered they are to the US the less restrained they will be. 3. Further international isolation will not influence anything. They are just about as isolated as can be already. 4. The most sensible direction towards anything positive is to focus on realistic positive change. If we want Palestinian sovereignty, let's find actors from each side who are both in favor of a two state solution and bring them to the forefront. We can do better.

Please see my other response to @Karmadhi... majority doesn't mean you can do whatever you want. The majority of Americans now voted for Trump. If you look up clips of Americans externally now we probably seem preposterous.

You realize there are sectors of Israeli society who aren't making it onto viral online clips right? Even if it were true that the majority are rabid with anger now and behaving unhinged, that doesn't mean they can do whatever they want. The Haaretz paper that is constantly cited here is a good example of why. This is one such example of Israeli society which does not adopt those views. That is a very prominent and popular publication. Where is the Palestinian equivalent of such a publication that internally criticizes their leadership?

I did not justify or defend anything. You didn't really comprehend what I wrote. I only wrote what I felt was an accurate description of the situation and how best to move forward. For the record I don't believe religious claims are relevant, only that Jews as a whole do and that fact IS relevant.

You're still doing this childish Palestinians / Hamas are good guys. Israelis bad guys black / white shtick?

You are blind. The reason America is behind us is because we are fighting to the death for it. And if America left, we would still fight to the death and find another way. You vastly underestimate the Jews and their connection to Israel. This is your greatest misunderstanding. I never claimed the holocaust was the biggest cause, in fact I said otherwise. Perhaps we will have to acknowledge everything, but you can't put the cart before the horse. First there needs to be peace and healing. Not the other way around.