Scholar

Because that is how societal evolution goes. Orange must progress into Green, and humor is one of the best ways to create such progress. The same was true in the past and it will work this way in the future. I am fine making fun of you while you are fine holocausting sentient beings. Your bad feelings are a sacrifice I am willing to make for the evolution of mankind. We made far, far greater sacrifces in the past. Look at how the world dealt with the Nazi's or the slavors. When I am among vegans, I focus solely on the unconsciousness of vegans, their dogmatism, the way their identity makes them vulnerable to blind-sided thinking. I for example extensively criticize vegans for the one-dimensional health claims they make, or when they have black and white thinking about how their diet effects the world. To me for example there are very compelling arguments for why being a vegan body builder is immoral, or why overconsuming in general is immoral. There are also many systemic issues with the attitude and values of stage green. But this is not what any of you here criticize. People in here criticize veganism from below, not from above. You don't go about focusing on criticizing the church or religion in a society in which stage red is prevelant, where they need a healthy transition into stage blue. That is nonsensical, not integral and completely lacks systems thinking. There is no one size fits all solution. In this forum I act in a very specific way for very specific reasons, even in this particular thread I have developed a very particular identity to let the dynamics play out. In the end, I focus on the unconsciousness of meat-eaters because their limited value set poses the biggest threat to the ecology of this planet since the last mass extinction, and it is also the main cause of human-caused suffering in this world. There is no issue that is comparable as far as suffering and destruction goes, there is no issue in which adopting responsibility is more helpful and effective. Most of you are indoctrinated and will not change. The younger generation will use these discriminatory tools to create a culture which self-perpetuates itself. They will make fun of carnists, they will discriminate against them, until that form of mind is going to be extinguished from this planet and only few sparks will remain, much like White-Superiority, Human-Superiority will be viewed the same way in the future. The objections I had in this threadwere pointing at the mechanisms of your mind, not simply veganism. I find it far more disturbing how unconscious people in here are of the way spiral dynamics and integral theory plays out. As I said, the lack in distinction between Real Self, Authentic Self and False Self leads to very dysfunctional behaviour. Don't forget, Tier 2 is able to become the soldier who slaughters the Nazi's, if the situation asks for it. They can fall into unconsciousness, act out what must be acted out, and reemerge from it when other tools are appropriate. Identity is a tool, a tool necessary for the evolution of mankind. You will not get dispassionate nihilists's fight for the survival of mankind. The reason why I am so harsh about this is because I have never personally convinced anyone to become vegan by being compassionate. It always was the case when I was harshly criticizing the carnist position, by for example criticizing a certain person, while another person, who is carnist but who I was not directly talking about, listened to me and was compelled by my arguments. Much like the cartoons are doing. The ones who identify too much with carnism are in my view too hard to convince, it is better to focus people who are already susceptible to the new identity. I don't criticize sv3rige to turn him into a vegan. I make fun of him so that the people who are ready can see the absurdity in it and come to conclude to this themselves. I predict that there will be a lot of division in the future. As the identity of the carnists gets more and more threatened, both position will become more and more extreme.

Says the person who starts his contribution with: I guess slavery was ended by having accepted and shown compassion towards the slavors? You have a very unrealistic view on how consciousness is developing in the collective. Veganism is on the rise, it is becoming more and more self-evident to more and more people. And before you know it people like you will seem as biggoted as the common racist who says that the "negros" need to be put back into their place.

Can you show footage of the way all of these animals are slaughtered?

If you want to become more consistent with your values, transmute shame into courage and love: Do not just look at the harm you are causing with the choices, do not focus on what you do not want to be, rather focus on what you want to be. Focus on that which you can do for your fellow brothers and sisters, the love and compassion you can extend to them. This is who you can become, it does take sacrifice, but becoming that will give you far more than any cheese and any convinience will give you. Who do you want to be? The person who gives his little sister his chocolate to see her joy and share it with her, or the big brother who can't help but pick on his little sister? Sacrifice is a beautiful thing, it is where we find strength and courage. We all know the courage of a mother and father protecting her child, the deep purpose and meaning the derive from protecting and guarding their own. Now imagine all these creatures were your children, what courage that would give you, how much meaning you would derrive from that. Notice the transformative potential of this. Love will give you far more than comfort and convenience ever will. And it will not just transform you, but those around you aswell. True joy is not found in having others serve you, it is found it serving others, in sacrificing your limited, temporary form for those who need it the most. Joaquin is an excellent example of this. Notice how he focuses on our potential for goodness. He is suffering from the compassion he feels for those around him, but yet he seems more joyful than most of those who are hiding in their own limited identity. This is the strength of Green. It is our compassion, our trust and courage in adopting responsibility for the suffering round us. It is in our vulnerability, our ability to self-sacrifice. This is what we want to become.

The fundamental problem here is that by creating an Ideal of High Consciosuness at a lower stage, like orange and green, it is very easy to get through the spiral in a very superficial and repressive way. This will lead to shadows, and shadows will inevitably make this work far more difficult. Authentic expression is key, we cannot skip steps because we want to be "High Consciousness!". I feel like this wisdom is lacking in Leo's teachings, or atleast an appropriate emphasis on that. To be fair, Leo could not predict people developing like this, but now that it is happening, I hope to see some corrections in the way he teaches and clarifies some of this stuff.

But that is not promoting veganism. Veganism is a specific view coming from a specific value set. The value is an extention of identity towards animals, which means animals become part of the self construct. Veganism is then the view that it is wrong to exploit and use that part of self for personal gain. So veganism or stage green identity is not compatible with reducing animal cruelty or promoting better ways to holocaust animals. It is about the adoption of responsibility for our actions and the inclusion of animals into our circle of identity. If you see a difference between a child, or a mentally handicapped person and an animal, you are still discriminatory in the same way a racist is and did not fully extend your identity. Imagine for someone who believes in human rights, or in other words someone who extended their identity to all humans, to say something like "Yeah, I guess the best way to end black slavery is to introduce better ways to enslave black people and more compassionate ways to treat them.". This will seem absurd from the POV of a more evolved identity, much like the slavery argument seems absurd to you. The importance is the value change, not simply a superficial change in behaviour. This change goes to the core of your identity and how you view the world. The best strategy to change behaviour will be meat replacements, like lab grown meat that is planned to be available commercially in the next few years. This will then change the fundamental way people view animals. But us as consciousness workers need to go beyond cultural, unconscious mechanism. Our work is in consciously developing our identities.

He will probably send you this: And claim that it's evidence that all beings need meat. That's the kind of person you are talkng to, just so you know.

Yes, but I think this does not add a lot of value to this discussion, because we all have watched Leo's videos and we all know this. And You have not shown how this is even relevant in this specific context. To me it seems like it is a knee-jerk bypassing. To me, it right now is being used dangerously, not just potentially, but in actuality. If you saw Naz's arguing that they want to holocaust the jews, and then you saw someone disagreeing with that and calling it low consciousness, would you then go to them and say "But you know, all morality is relative! Don't be so unconscious jew-defender!". This is completely backwards and inappropriate. Why are you focusing so much on the unconsciousness of the vegan but not focusing at all on the unconsciousness of the meat-eater, who with his choices his inflicting suffering and destruction beyond comprehension? What you focus on, what you perceive as a threat is determined by your identity. What do you think does your focus tell you about your own identity? Do you bring this topic up in every moralistic discussion? In every political discussion? In every discussion that is about the relative domain? Why do you bring it up here, in the vegan discussion? Why do you gear it towards the vegan side of the argument? Does the world really need more excuses and defense of the carnist position? Is that really the position you hold? That vegans are the problem and that the meat-eaters need to be protected?

@Serotoninluv Thank god you are here, the voice of calm reaso.

You avoided everything I was pointing at and reduced this discussion to the View of Veganism, rather than the values and the importance of Value evolution and how people like you use moral relativism to justify their VALUES not merely their VIEWS. How do you think consciousness works? I can say I deny all dogma and that I hold no position and I become completely nihilistic towards everything and just say "All perspectives are valid!" while profiding absurd arguments that do not apply, and can then call myself "high consciousness" and dismiss everyone who criticizes this position by saying "You are too closeminded to see what I mean!"? You are literally doing it, you are the Frankenstein. You have a view not because your values truly reflect that view, but because you value being the person who would hold such values and views. You want to be that "High consciousness person", not for actual curiousity, but because you want to be better. This is not yellow, this is orange.

This is what I mean. There is no substance here, no contending with what I was writing. An easy dismissal, a referral to hypocrisy ("But you are deluded yourself, AND IF YOU DON'T LOOK AT YOUR OWN DELUSION I WON'T LOOK AT MINE!") and the ego can with satisfaction avoid the self-reflection that is needed. Notice that there is no curiousity of my position, of why I hold my position, of the meaning of my position and so forth. There is no desire to absord information, because identity is being threatened. Now, I would say I did not act in a way to change their mind, I was not effectively doing that because of how confrontational I was. But for anyone reading, notice the dynamics at play, it is very apparent from an outsiders perspective.

Just released, this fits into this discussion aswell: Make a distinction between values and views. A good way to capture the Spiral Frankensteinian Monster phenomena is to describe it as "People aware of the Spiral adopting higher value views yet not evolving towards new values". Someone at stage orange in one developmental line will use a Higher Stage View to justify not changing his values, to justify remaining at his current position. So Orange can use Turquoise relativism to help itself reside at stage Orange. It can use that view to basically dismiss the validity of ALL further development. And this is what the Devil does, this is the Devil's purpose. This is happening often because we create a stage orange or green view of higher stage values. We for example create a competitive version of "High Consciousness" or "Anti-dogmatism" and we actually operate them from a stage orange framework! @B_Naz Is a good example here, he is very honestly showing us his stage orange values. He values his personal gain and individual freedom, like working out effortlessly, over the life and suffering of other beings. Now, when we point out and call it devilry, he might use a higher stage view to justify his position. He will use Moral Relativism or Nihilism to actually justify his more primitive values. He will use talking points from the higher stages to dismiss seeing a limitation in how value-set. Can you see how helpful it would be for him to see this dynamic taking place, but also how unlikely it is for him to see it?

Yes, like those pesky slavery abolitionists. They ruined the party with all the complaining about black people deserving rights. Fucking vegan extremists, believing other creatures have a basic right to life without enslavement and slaughter.

The fundamental problem is deeper than just this issue of veganism. If the intellect was applied to any other situation, the mind would come to the same conclusion you came within seconds, absolutely effortlessly. This is the problem when your intellect protects your identity, it will at each step attempt to find reasons for it's own conclusions and be completely blindsided to that which is obviously contradicting those reasons. It is amazing how the mind works. Your identity will determine the way you think. This kind of bias is the easiest way to point out egoic attachments. This is how we know we are not confronting Tier 2 minds. Veganism is a fundamental change in the way we view ourselves, this is why it leads to so much resistance. The same reason why a racist has such a hard time accepting that other races should not be enslaved or that they are equal to them. It fundamentally changes how they view themselves, what they are. It is a grave threat to their self, as much as the animal holocaust is a great threat to the vegan, for he has expanded his identity to include animals.

One of the problems I have here is that you guys have a really rule based approach to how you view developmental work. "DOGMA BAD, IDENTITY BAD, REAL SELF IMPORTANT, EVERYTHING ELSE WASTE OF TIME, DON'T BE ATTACHED, DON'T BELIEVE IN MORALITY, BE HIGH CONSCIOUSNESS, BE YELLOW, GREEN BAD MUST TRANSITION TO YELLOW" This is not systemic thinking, you completely forgo all nuance. The current problem in our world is that we have to bring people from orange to green, that we have to reduce stage orange nihilism and create stage green purpose and identity attachments. You cannot rush to stage yellow. A Hallmark of Tier 2 is that it sees the value of each stage and goes back to integrate everything that is useful and necessary. You guys are skipping over green without ever having dived into it. Stage Green will be outrage about the animal holocaust to such a degree that it will be unbarable to know that it is even happening in your presence. It is not simply abstinence of being evil, it is the active engagement, the adoption of responsibility for the suffering you see around you. It is not making excuses, looking for hypocracies, finding justifications. It is about radical adoption of responsibility and compassion. This is not about the position you have adopted. This is not about ideology, this is about the functionality of your mind, the way you operate, the fundamental way your emotional frameworks are reacting to information. Imagine Jesus Christ knowing about the animal holocaust. Do you really think he would be here criticizing the vegans for being dogmatic? Do you think he would be a relativistic edgelord who exclaims that all morality is relative and that it is important to abandon it? Look at the bigger picture here. There is suffering and destruction in this world that is unimaginable, and your spiritual insights will not change any of that. If you limit your identity to the very body you are occupying it is effortless to be in a state of pseudo high consciousness. This is not mastery, mastery is being high consciousness in the face of terror, in the face of true threat to the ego. Not hiding in your first world where none of your actions will truly threaten your existence and your philosophies have no consequences to you whatsoever while others are experiencing hell. I can get very passionate and I do not care about being dispassionate. It is unauthentic, I can fall into identity, make it do the work, for it's emotions fuel my actions. And when the identity is inappropriate, I can detach from it. This is what consciousness is for. The dispassion is a tool for us to increase our passion. The distance a tool to increase our Love. Not to avoid the hard work.

But this is pure dogma aswell. You will not feel fine when someone enslaves you or kills your for food. You are not beyond ego, you are not beyond judgement, you are not beyond dogma and identity. What you are saying is completely redundant, and the only reason you do so is so you do not have to challenge yourself on your current Identity. We don't go from neanderthal to enlightened Buddha or Christ. We go from red, to blue, to green, to yellow, to turquoise and beyond. We transcend and include. You are creating a False Self, you are not Authentic to where you truly are and you use other peoples experiences of the Real Self to justify the state of your False Self. You use spiritual dogma and moralistic nihilism to dismiss progress. That's literally what you are doing. Abandoning slavery was progress. Abandoning human trafficking is progress. A world that is vegan is progress. This has nothing to do with the pre/trans fallacy, this has to do with pseudo-spiritual dogmatists parroting the wise words of their Guru. This is what is happening here. The answer to someone who is vegan is not to call for him to repress his identity, but rather to overcome it. You do not overcome it by becoming dispassionate and selfish about the suffering of others. The reason why eating vegetables is not bad compared to animals is that A) The animals we consume eat far more plants than us and B) that there is no evidence for plants having a capacity for suffering or experience. Today's system is not just slavery manifesting in different ways. This kind of relativism is hindering the progress of us as individuals and us as a collective. You do not see high level spiritual people act like this anywhere. You are creating a completely delusional fantasy of what stage yellow is, and you use that fantasy to justify you selfishness. Notice how when I point out the incredible suffering of other beings, your reaction is to point out my devilry. You do not use compassion to understand the suffering and to understand the urgency to come and adopt responsiblity for it. You abandon responsibility in the name of your spiritual ideology. If you define dogma this broadly it becomes completely useless as a term, because then we would recognize that dogma is a necessity for human evolution. Your definition of dogma would include the process of how you determine something to be dogmatic or not. This has nothing to do with spirituality.

You fail to see the underlying dynamic that I was trying to criticize. This goes beyond this very issue of veganism. It's not just people agreeing or disagreeing with this issue, it is again their whole attitude towards spirituality and individual evolution. We are getting a lot of repression, dispassion and gaslighting in this forum, this includes even many of the people here who agree with veganism. Whether or not it's most people I obviously cannot say, it was a hyperbole. It is defintiely an issue to me though. I see a more underlying problem here that you seem to be unwilling to face. Your identity determines the way you use your intellect. If your identity included animals, meaning that you felt deep compassion for their suffering, you would be able to dsmantle your very own argumentation within no time at all. This is the core of your issue. Your intellect works for your identity. "Everyone has different dietary needs! But nutritionists say a vegan diet is not as healthy! etc." If you had true compassion for animals you would think this way: "The general consensus of nutritionists is that the vegan diet is healthy for all stages of life, including pregancy and infancy. Even if some people might struggle with energy problems on a vegan diet, would it really be justified to continue to inflict suffering on my brothers and sisters that I so dearly love? Maybe I can find ways to somehow reduce it or overcome the health problems I face, if I truly even face these problems. Have I truly tried my best to integrate a vegan lifestyle? Maybe I can eat insects of mussels?" If you had to eat your mother to because "everyone has different dietary needs", you arguments would change immediately. Imagine I was someone who was against human trafficking, would you still be calling me dogmatic? Would you still be claiming that I was trying to force my lifestyle on others? If I claimed that I was more compassionate because I am against human trafficking, would you then proceed to challenge me on how compassionate I am? Would you come up with different excuses for why it is fine to do human trafficking? There are trillions of animals that are being killed each year, the majority of which in gruesome ways. The fact that this is not a problem to you speaks volumes of how biased you are towards the minds that you call human. The fact that this is not seen and that someone who has a more evolved/expanded identity is being called dogmatic to me is pure devilry. I would have to write an essay on Spiral Frankenstein Monsters, which I think is a huge phenomena in this community.

Why do you think I am dogmatic about this? And the reason why I am able to see more and more how many dysfunctional people are in this forum is because I took a break in the first place. It is very clear to me now.

These stickmen are calm because they are removed from reality. Have the courage to watch this with true compassion. Try to be involved. Don't escape into the untouchable formlessness. Then understand why emotion and identity is appropriate for this. You guys really need to become more open minded about how you deal with worldly issues and spiritual work. I am very concerned about the condition of the people in this forum. There is a dogma here that has nothing to do with spiritual mastery, the devil hijacking the path for his own purposes. Again, Ken Wilbers model is very helpful here. Real Self, Actual Self, False Self. People focus too much on the Real Self here, they dismiss the development of the Actual Self. This is incomplete. Dispassion is not appropriate here. What you guys are doing is telling Jewish Holocaust survivors that they are deluded and shouldn't be so moralistic. The fact that you cannot see how deeply egoic and absurd this is should really put up some red flags in your minds. What you guys are doing is repressing compassion, not mastering it. When a jewish holocaust survivor comes to you with his anger, you will tell him. "Yes, I understand your anger, what happened to you was terrible.", not "Don't be so judgemental you unspiritual loser, lol!".

This one is good aswell:

I don't think being moralistic is bad. I see identity evolution as essential and valuable. I think that killing animals for reasons that do not seem necessary is bad to me. Does dismissing slavery, rape and the holocaust of jews make me ideological or moralistic? What is the difference? Do you think there is a way to do slavery in a way that is not inherently bad to you? Also, see how Sadhguru responds to orange. By adopting responsibility around us. That is the next evolutionary step, it is in the hands of us, who are in this position. Without it, there will be no grand human evolution into spiritual godhood. You can forget about that if we do not get our foundations right. Adopt more responsibility, become compassionate, help others. But instead you guys seek to avoid this responsibility. You seek to avoid action and justify it with your spiritual and philosophical positions. Non-action and action. Attachment and detachment. They are not dichtomies: Read the highest stage, the Ironist.

We are planning to have cheap lab grown meat within this decade sold at supermarkets. There will be no need to sustainable, conscious animal farming. If we simply avoided all animal products, we could easily sustain our way of living and then some. We could infact rewild current land that we use for animal farming. we could then develope better ways to farm plants, like vertical farming. Or solutions like this: https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2019/07/15/Solar-Foods-makes-protein-out-of-thin-air-This-is-the-most-environmentally-friendly-food-there-is I don't see compelling arguments to actively grow and kill animals for food, especially not in the future, and especially not the animals we currently grow. I can't help to think you are biased, because if you were not, why would you not suggest insect farming in place of animal farming? It is far, far more sustainable, human beings are adapted to consume insects as almost all primates are and it might be a more ethical solution than killing the more complex animals. Yet, I don't even think there are compelling arguments for that when we have things like lab grown meat around the corner. Your need for there to be "higher consciousness animal farming" is to me no different than a need for "higher consciousness slavery". In a few decades this statement will look completely insane.

Nothing is inherent to reality. These judgements are as real as the universe itself. There is no difference at all. You are still moralistic, you do not see the deeper layers. You have created a hierarchy between what is more or less delusional, what is more or less inherent. What do you think is making that judgement? You must look far deeper, far more closely. You have to explore the subtle realm far more than this to see it. It is staggering how obvious the workings of the ego can be to someone who is observing it from the outside. Read your last few posts again in the context of "You can have values, prferences and judgements, its about how conscious you are of them!". Understand that statement, which you made yourself, and then understand how you reacted to serotonin before that, how you judged him for being moralistic. How it is completely obvious and apparent to anyone here that in this case you are far less aware of your moralistic judgements and your attachments of them than he is and that you are currently trying to save the image of your ego or to avoid introspection. Look at what you are doing.

You can't believe it? Why, because you are disappointed of serotonin? Because your expectations have not been met? Because your judgement of what should be has contradicted of what is? If your understanding of morality was not so narrow, you would understand that right now your are being moralistic. You are anything but accepting. Your are criticizing, why would you do so if you had no judgements? The fact that you said "I don't like x" is a moral judgement. This dynamic to me is utterly fascinating. What the Devil did was ingenius. People here do not understand the depth of the lies, the depth of the tendrils of delusion. The complete and utter ignorance it is able to induce, the blindness, the utter helplessness, it just ingenius. This is beyond language, beyond thought. The lies start in the very way your perceive reality and yourself. They are grounded far deeper in your mind that what you are currently aware of. The depth of morality goes to the core of your being, to go beyond it would render your inhuman in behaviour, literally. You have unpealed the most surface layer and made yourself believe it to be all the layers there are. That is the devils greatest gift. For if it believes the final layer was unveiled, it will not seek a deeper layer. It will use the deeper mechanism to achieve the very same work. Morality is metaphysical, not merely what you label good and bad. You could never use the label of goodness and badness and be the most moralistic person in the world.

@Chakra Lion Don't let yourself be gaslit by people in here. Notice that people are very selective about when they pull out the "identity is bad!" card and when they are not. If you came in here asking about whether or not you should follow your desire to murder and torture people, then trust me you would get a very different response from the same people who gave you the typical moral nihilistic attitude. This attitude is not based in true consciousness or love, it is in most cases simply a way to easily dismiss difficult topics. Identity needs to be developed step by step, most people in here have deep shadows and repress their authentic expression in the name of their spiritual identity, in the name of the spiritual superiority. Do not seek acceptance from the people in this forum, be authentic and watch yourself. Do you get angry at the animal holocaust? They will tell you it is a problem. Do you get angry at children being raped? They will be far more careful about how their phrase their moral nihilism. The Father of Lies is the Father of Lies for a reason. He will use anything to perpetuate himself. Reason, religion, spirituality, philosophy. There is no end to it. You will have far more progress if you step into compassion and self sacrfice, into the suffering of those around you. Here is a good video on the different kinds of Self: People in here seem to be running into the problem of focusing on the Real Self, but are very dismissive of the Actual Self. The Actual Self is essential.