Scholar

I hope you do well too!

Let us try a little experiment my brother. Your heart cannot be reached in the current state you are in. Leave this thread for a while until you do not feel attached to it anymore. Then, when you feel especially loving and open hearted, like you wanted to give your brothers and sisters love, come back here and read again our conversation. I think it could be enlightening.

Who would have thoughts, but there you go: If you are a Trump supporter, give it a listen. Although if you are a Trump supporter at this point, may God help you free yourself of the fear and hatred filling your heart.

We are not talking about my ignorance right now, but yours my brother. You have clearly displayed your insensitivity here, it would be obvious to any sensitive creature. As we speak you are talking from fear. You are defending yourself, because you lack an open heart. This will not change if you simply continue to life from fear. You will see, if your heart grows stronger and more loving, it's focus will change. This is a natural evolution of the heart in relation to the mind. I feel like I am talking past you my brother because all you can see is fear.

Yes, I found that studying how people react to the propositions of veganism is an excellent way to come to learn about the human mindand heart. It is quite extreme, because I am at a point at which I do view most animals to be nothing but humans with minorly different anatomy. Replace this scenario with humans being the ones who are being slaughtered. Could you see how incredibly insensitive and absurd what you have said sounded? You are comparing the suffering and death of all of these individuals to liability of the slaughterhouse, or the fact that one individual that you consider to be worth of more consideration would get injured. Put that in relationship to what is happening in those slaugherhouses. And again, your focus is still immersed in criticizing those people while you truly have no genuine interest in helping them with their cause. Nothing you said is helpful, it isn't a constructive critique. It is an attempt to invalidate. It is clearly fear my brother. You have to open your heart.

Imagine there was a slaughterhouse with humans. In the background you can see humans being treated like objects. Then there is a human that is protesting that in what you consider a silly way. They chain themselves to the machines that kill the humans. Now, people post videos of this an laugh at how silly those humans are for trying to save the other humans. Imagine how sensitivity you would have to be for you to come forth and criticize that person, announcing it with the word "Lol", for being what you consider ineffective in their activism. Imagine all of this. This is you, my friend. And now ask yourself. How could you possibly have become so insensitive to the suffering of your brothers and sisters? It is fear, it is a lack of love. Your heart is not open, and your mind cannot see the humans who are being treated like objects. You mind can only see the silly activist. Because that is what your mind has chosen to focus on, fuel by fear and hatred. Open your heart.

An interesting question is, how much responsibility, or even a moral obligation, do humans have to speak our for those who cannot speak for themselves? Do you think it would have been an obligation, that if you had the required awareness, to have been actively advocating against slavery during when it was going on? It could be put even more controversially. If there was going on a human holocaust on the scale of the animal holocaust, what would it mean if we would not dedicate a significant amount of our time and energy into an attempt to fight against it? Especially if fighting against it brought virtually no consequences to us other than having spend our time differently. Would not any other problem in society pale in contrast to that? Would it not feel almost bizarre that we invest so much energy into other problems, while that most obvious one has virtually nobody speaking out against it? Can you see how your response is not a genuine attempt to help this cause, but rather to invalidate it? Also notice who you are focusing on. You are not focusing on the fact that there are people laughing at such a cause, you seem to have a disinterest analyzing that and finding ways to change that. Rather, all you have done is invalidate this cause. You have pointed to some things that activists might be doing wrong, simply because this annoys you, not because you want them to be more effective so that the world can change more quickly. Notice this. It is fear, not love, that fuels you attention.

Excellent analysis Forest. I find this kind of mentality often occupied by people who resist progress towards a more vegan society. Many people for example will use the hypocrisy of vegans to justify whatever they are doing. Crop deaths are a good example. Someone might say, why is it okay to kill animals in crop production but not to kill animals in a slaughterhouse? The vegan is clearly a hypocrate, therefore I can continue to consume meat from slaughterhouses. The one who is using this line of reasoning does not actually care about animals who die in crop deaths nor about those who die in a slaughterhouse. He is simply using that example to hinder progress. It is as if a proponent of slavery had said that the abolitionists are hypocrates because while they think it is wrong to enslave a certain race of humans, they do believe it is fine to enslave animals. Yes, the abolitionist is indeed a hypocrate. But the argument here is not being used to actually point out a flaw so that it can be corrected, no, the argument is made so that a change in behaviour can be dimissed. With this kind of reasoning, progress can be halted. The slaves nor the animals get to live a existence free of enslavement. However the context changes. Today it is quite valid to compare a person who believes human slavery to be wrong but yet justifies it in the animal context. It is the case because this comparison is not use to invalidate progress, but rather to fuel it. Now the question is, who will go on the streets and fight for the animals? Imagine how long it would have taken black people to free themselves of slavery if none of them had the ability to speak or resist. I think this is perfectly demonstrated if we look at how animals are treated. If humans of the same capacity for sentience were to be treated this way, we would deem it to be justified to kill those who are enslaving them so that we could put an end to this tremendous kind of suffering. Imagine how it might expand your mind if you could spend a month in a factory farm, or a slaughterhouse.

Let us not fight brother. Your hatred is fueled by your fear.

Brother, you hare successfully self-indoctronated yourself.

Does seeing a cow make your mouth water? I don't think so, you have been culturally indoctronated into enjoying foods that resemble more a vegetable than actualy flesh or animal. You season your steaks with vegetables so you can enjoy them. 2 billion people consume insects, the only reason you view them to be so disgusting is because you have been conditioned this way. It's fallacious to assume that anything that is unappealing to you is bad for you, by that metric sugary sweets and hamburgers would be healthy and broccoli would be unhealthy. The reason why I am saying that insects, aside from pure evolutionary reasons, are better is because the science supports it. They are lower in saturated fats and cholesterol, and you need to consume a far lower amount of them to get the nutrients you need, as they are far more rich in those than mammalian or avian counterparts. We were primates that consumed raw veggies and fruit and as our ability to cook our food flourished we became more adapted to cooked food. Our entire digestive tract did not change, changes in size are far different than systemic changes to an organism. This is why for example humans get heart disease and other issues from consuming animal products and why the science keeps over and over showing us that vegans have the best health outcomes among the population. Many animals that we consider herbivores can consume flesh, like deer for example. This does not mean it is healthy for them, it simply means they have the ability to digest it in a way for them to gain calories that are necessary for survival. Do not forget, evolution doesn't select for longevity, it selects for reproduction. Humans do not rip animals apart alive and eat their guts, our digestive tract is anything but carnivorous. Heart disease can take decades to develope, getting your calories to survive the winter is a far higher priority. Evolution also doesn't create perfect organisms that are perfectly adapted to their environment. We are very much a work in progress, and many behaviors might be benefitial for immediate survival and reproducton, but not to thriving and longevity. This is not how any of this works, which is why actual health outcome data is far more relevant than any anthropological projections ever could be. By the way the graph you shows ironically supports the theory that human beings are primarily plant based animals, as a longer small intestine allows to digest and absorb more nutrients. I would recommend you to stop listening to quacks on youtube or dentists who pretend to be nutritionists. Your arguments are full of fallacious thinking, which is something that is very common among carnivory proponents.

And how exactly does this tell us humans should eat cows rather than insects? This graph basically shows us that humans have been cooking their vegetables long enough for rather minor adaptations to the size of certain organs to occur.

The question should not be about fish or meat, but rather about insects. Primates primarly consume insects in terms of animal flesh, not cows nor fish. If you feel like you lack something you should try to consume insects, they are probably the healthiest option you can pick and also the most environmentally friendly one. Although I do not quite understand why you have your doubt about this if overall you are feeling great. If you want to do a tradtional human diet, then consume insects. All the evidence points to us not having truly adapted to consuming animals like mammals or birds, not even the Intuit who almost exclusively consumed animals for god knows how long. The evidences point to it being completely unnecessary in our age, especially with supplementation, but if the suffering of others is not of your concern then you could opt for consuming insects.

May Love be with you all

The age of the universe is precisely two and a half Moments.

It is useful to look at the world as you see it. But do not cling to the world as you see it, because how you see the world will change. The strange thing about reality is that it has no anker point. The act of observing and coming to realize what reality is, changes reality. That itself is one of the many aspects of reality that is ever changing. As this world changes you will get a true sense of what Relativity is. Each point is only a point in relationship to all other points. Each position is only a position in relationship to other positions. For example, you might think that you started out as a unconscious child. You grew up and have come to learn to increase your consciousness. You are on a pathway to higher consciousness. Eventually you will realize you are the Creator. You will realize it to such an extend that you will become the Creator. Then you, as the Creator, will make the fully conscious choice to manifest yourself and become the unconscious child. That choice will require consciousness on a level far beyond anything you thought you ever had. Yet, that sophistication of consciousness, that power, that intelligence, that pure Being, that is what the unconscious child is. That unconscious child is the direct Choice of the Creator. Your beginning is your end. Truly, the end and the beginning were never the beginning nor the end. Each moment is the beginning and the end. This one and only moment this is the Choice of the Creator, each causing itself. Life is not linear, it is circular. See, the Creator does not create by drawing a line. The Creator creates by pulling from a Singularity of Nothingness a Circle. Can you see this? Can you see that when he pulls at the Singularity, the Circle will serve-emerge? Creation does not operate in the way the human mind conceptalizes reality in general. Creation is not building. Creation is the process of pulling apart the fabric of Nothingness. I grab into Nothingness, I grab Whiteness, and by pulling it from Nothingness, Blackness emerges on the other side. That is what it means to pull Whiteness from Nothingness. It means to seperate Nothingness into Whiteness and Blackness. Can you see how impossible this is? Can you see that you can pull more than all things from this Nothingness? This is the nature of relativity. It is groundless, because it's ground is Nothingness. It is self-justifying, self-creating. The Circle created itself.

You can recontextualize it and view Spirituality as seeking Love. I find that this recontextualization can offer a healthier outlook and path.

I see false confidence, which to me is fear. There is a reason why this person is not just saying "The world will end", but rather is using specific language to describe what will happen. I remember he was talking about suffering on an unimaginable scale, so that this year will seem like paradise. This kind of mentality to me is fear based. It needs comparisons, exaggerations, projections, certainty of the future. This is not an obvious, gross form of fear, but a subtle fear. But I also see fear in the way he speaks in general, his facial expressions and so forth. His heart and mind is not fully open. With such people, this can be made obvious very quickly by direct confrontation. If you were to confront Shunya as he was teaching, about the validity of what he is saying, in a non-submissive manner, I think there would be a tendency for him to react in an emotional way, revealing his egoic attachments. This is what happens to Sadhguru sometimes aswell. It is very easy to appear to be free of fear when you are the one who is teaching others, when there is no resistence, when your ego is not on the line. It is like claiming you are the best MMA fighter in the world without ever getting into the cage. Or that you are free of suffering whilst your life is comfortable and not under threat. It is not fear to say anything, but it is fear that will make you more attracted to one set of belief over another, or that will make you focus on one belief over another. Or that will make you confuse a belief and assumption for reality.

Is it not amazing how sneaky fear truly is? It will find it's way into the mind of even the most conscious individuals. In the conscious mind, fear will morph into confidence and certainty, so subtly, so invisibly, that the conscious mind will not even have noticed it happen at all. Fear is like a great chameleon. If you do not come to respect fear, you shall be it's slave. Your mind shall close and your eyes blinded with visions which you will confuse for reality. Shunyamurti is an excellent fascilitator of this chameleon of fear. He himself has become a vassal of that chameleon. Can you see how powerful this chameleon is? Can you see it's ingenious survival tactics? It truly is awe-inspiring. A foe so sophisticated that once you underestimate, once you believe to have defeated, will strike you so fast that you will not ever know that it has injected it's poison into your flesh. Ironically, the more conscious a person becomes, the harder it has to look out for fear, because the more sophisticated methodes fear will develop to remain alive. The fear within a conscious person is a far greater opponent than the fear of the unconscious person. The fear in a unconscious person is a lion, the fear in the conscious person is a fog. No sword can harm it, no shield can protect you from it's invasion. If this is not understood, the conscious person will fall pray to the fog just as much as the unconscious person falls pray to the lion. If you believe to have freed yourself from fear, always, always, always assume that fear has shifted into a form you have not yet learned to recognize. This shall be true until your mind has dissolved completely and your body is being eaten by maggots.

This is the sacrifice you have made, because you are selfless. Selfless suffering does not mean suffering in an enlightened state. The most pure and selfless suffering is the suffering God has chosen to experience in complete ignorance of his own Love. The suffering in which you are weak, in which you do not want to suffering, in which you beg to be freed from this suffering for any cost. That is the most selfless suffering there can be. This is the suffering you have chosen because you could not deny the existence of any aspect of reality. You gave reality the ability to flourish in any way possible, with you being the one who will experience it all. The ultimate selfless choice was to embrace the fact that you shall forget you have ever made this choice, and that you shall suffer in the deepest regret your own existence. You were so brave and selfless that you made this choice, fully conscious of what it would mean for you. This is how loving you are. Your own ignorance is your most selfless act of Love, because only in ignorance ignorance can exist. And you loved ignorance so much that you could not deny it's existence. You looked at all of Creation, all suffering, and you told yourself "I shall experience all of this, every moment. I shall experience all the fear, all the regret, all the loneliness, all the pain, all the sorrow, all the dread. I shall experience it all by itself, so that it can exist as itself, because only then my Creation can truly exist. Only if I make myself forget how much I love all of Creation, only if I forget about What I am, only then my Creation can be reality. Only in ignorance my suffering can be real.". This is the amount of Love you have for Creation. You have so much Love that it is terrifying to yourself. Your Love includes terror. If your Love was not terrifying, it would not be true Love.

Fascinating, it's like they have a peace treaty amongst each other.

Notice that our selfishness, our inability to treat our animal brothers and sisters with respect and love, is what caused this virus in this first place. And it will be what will cause the next virus. It will be what will cause super-bacteria that might put us back to the dark ages. It will be what will cause climate catastrophy. All caused by fear and selfishness, and inability for compassion and open-heartedness. This is the way it must be my brothers and sisters. The longer you will attempt to find excuses for your own selfishness, the longer you will attempt to justify yourself, to uphold your way of life, the longer you shall suffer.

I think our brother wants to say that it is easy to cast the first stone. He wants you to see that not taking the vaccine is nothing compared to our selfishness when we choose to exploit our brothers and sisters for something that science tells us is not needed. If you want to deny science, then you cannot blame your brother for being skeptical of the very same science. Animal consumption is ruining the health of yourself, it is causing suffering to your brothers and sisters and it is destroying our mother earth. Selfishness and fear will always backfire. Notice that the decision to consume products that come from the suffering of your brothers and sister is based in fear. Instead of judging your brothers and sisters for their fear, have compassion for them. The seflishness of levani is backfiring in real time for him. He is not showing open-heartedness. He is judging his brother or sister for their fear. This act of selfishness created more fear, more judgement, more suffering.