Scholar

I truly believe this is signifantly worse than 9/11. It's a different order of magnitude in terms of the terror it caused. I mean, killing and beheading infants, that's just asking to be nuked into oblivion.

It seems like we have confirmation (by the BBC at the very least) that some of the infants slaughtered by HAMAS were beheaded. Now, I want you to put this into context. Imagine such an attack happened in the US, say after a hypothetical situation in which Mexico was treated akin to the gaza-people. If this had occured, even today, I suspect it would no longer matter who is in the wrong or who provoked who. The US would probably sent Mexico back to the stone age, with little regard to how many mexicans would have to die in the process. I would not at all be surprised if after such an attack hundreds of thousands of mexicans would be killed. The response would be completely asymmetrical and disproportionate. There would be no conceivable world in which there was any room for negotiation or peace at that point.

Yes, Israel feared this precise moment for a long time. Instead of confronting the issue (which as you point out is realistically leading to more death and war) they basically pushed it under the rug. See the comment I quoted above from an Israeli.

Holy shit the footage of muslim communities literally celebrating the killing of civilians. In New York, quote: "There was some sort of rave, desert party, where they were having a great time until the resistance came in electrified hang gliders and took at least several dozen hipsters..." - pause for appaulse and wooing from the crowd - "...but I'm sure they are doing very fine despite what the new york post says.". At least 260 people were killed and women were raped next to the corpses of their friends, and these people are literally cheering it on. And we are talking normal lefties here, not some radical islamic group. This is genuinely revealing.

Exactly, and this, to Israel, was worse than 9/11. So the likelihood that they will somehow realize the limitations of their ways in relationship to the palestinians is near zero. This will cause much more suffering.

I don't think most people in Israel are more developed than Shapiro.

This is what it looks like from the jewish perspective. Warning, includes very graphic footage.

It's surprising to me that so many people seem to be unaware that a lot of muslims hate jewish people. They are so much worse than russians in that regard.

They didn't kill over 200 palestinians within one incident. Of course that is tragic and a moral crime, but I am not sure if what happened you can describe as "overwhelmingly peaceful". 90 out of 254 did partake in hostilities, and the deaths in general were due to a lax open fire policy. While this is a moral atrocity, again, this does not even remotely justify HAMAS actions. While Israel was not being responsible whatsoever, they did not actively seek to kill as many palestinians as possible, which is what HAMAS did. And I do remember there was coverage on this in the west, there were whole controversies around this involving a t-shirt with a pregnant woman on it and so forth. Either way, if Israel attempted to do the same thing HAMAS did, which was to cause maximal casualties in the civilian population, the palestinian people would no longer exist. In the end, none of this will even matter, because the reality is HAMAS has just worsened things for everyone. This was not merely "lashing out", this was an ideologically driven terrorist attack that revelled in it's own violence towards the innocent. Israel will response in full force and the sympathy for palestinians will have been set back significantly.

Well, they screwed up their chance when they celebrated naked dead female civilians, executed entire families and proudly raped their hostages. This is not going to garner sympathy for the palestinians, especially when they participate in these actions. HAMAS goal by the way is not to garner sympathy from the West, but simply to mobilize their islamic allies to join their fight, who will actually celebrate the death of those civilians as a victory.

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/sktkysb11a We could yet see US involvement and an escalation into actual war.

This is who Israeli has to "negotiate peace" with:

Realistically, this is to the Israeli's worse than 9/11 was to the US population. And the US population was in a complete rage after that incident, willing to basically do anything to get revenge. The Palestinians are being indoctrinated by HAMAS and their frustration used to further their ideological goals, and of course the escalation will only further entrench them. There is a genuine genocidal sentiment among the palestinians. This is how outside actors use populations as pawns. They will use valid frustrations and radicalize them for their own goals.

Israel is seemingly getting attacked from the lebanese border as we speak. This might mean Hezbollah is now getting fully involved as well. Hezbollah is warning the US, that if it will intervene in the conflict, american positions will be considered valid targets of attack. "There will be no red line."

Oh man, complete twitteritis.

I'll have to watch that, haven't kept up to date with the vids for the past years.

The reality in the end is, it is profoundly difficult to witness atrocities and recognize that many of them might genuinely be unavoidable. That there can be two sides who kill each other, and both justified from their own perspective. It's much easier to pick one side and decide they are in the right, rather than recognizing why both sides act the way they do, and maybe even must act the way they do.

You live in fairy land, there is no such thing as international community enforcement, especially when a state views something as existentially necessary. But you are so uninterested in actually seeing things from the Israeli perspective that you cannot even realistically gage how they would react to such attempts of "enforcement". It's like people who think the international community can force peace between Ukraine and Russia. You just live in fantasy land, it's not even worth to take what you say seriously at all. I'm sorry, but when someone provides a youtube video of chomsky instead of providing their own arguments, they have automatically lost the argument. This was an attempt at arguing from authority, which obviously will not work because I don't take Chomsky seriously. If you want to make a point, make the argument yourself instead of demanding from me to watch some silly video which you put zero effort into so that I need to then reply to the nonsense that is being aspoused.

Chomsky, oh my god, please.

You think the Gaza strip would have any of that if they were not supported by outside state actors? You really need to look at how state actors fund military groups for their own interest, because this discussion might as well be happening in a parallel universe. The less technologically advnaced the strip is, the easier it will be for state actors to radicalize them and use them for their own purposes. How do you think power vacuums work? You are still moralizing this. Yes, the lion will continue to hunt the gazelle, lest it die, and the gazelle has no other choice but to flee. This is how the world works, sometimes these types of situations are simply unresolvable. You should at least recognize the possibility of this, and that things are not nearly as simple from the perspective of the Israelis as you make it out to be, because obviously you are profoundly biased here. And I understand why you would be biased. The palestinians are the victims of the Israelis, they are being victimized. From their perspecitve, Israel is stealing their land. And of course they will try to fight for their land to not allow that to happen. But the reality is, both sides can be acting in their rational best interest while still being pitted against each other in an unfair manner. Like in the case of the lion and the gazelle, sometimes there simply is no resolution, no way to find harmony between both sides. And you should realize, considering how uniquily prolonged this conflict is, that it might be for those reasons, rather than the failure of moral character of the individual actors.

True, but again, from the perspective of the Israelis there is no difference. In the end, they have to risk their entire existence on this "What could work.". Would you be willing to do that? Last time you did it, you got HAMAS, and both sides suffered as a result. Now, you really are going to give them the West Bank, especially now after what HAMAS proved capable of? Don't be silly, this will not happen, human beings are way to pragmatic to allow for this to happen.

Yes, and why do you think this terror attack happened? Why do you think Iran is so invested in HAMAS? You are just arguing in a naively moralistic way that will not fly in anyone who is connected to actual reality. We aren't talk about some abstract notions here, to the Israeli's this is life and death, and of course they will steal some land here and there to ensure that. You can complain as long as you want about how unfair it is that the lion must eat the gazelle, that won't change the flow of nature.