Scholar

You live in fairy land, there is no such thing as international community enforcement, especially when a state views something as existentially necessary. But you are so uninterested in actually seeing things from the Israeli perspective that you cannot even realistically gage how they would react to such attempts of "enforcement". It's like people who think the international community can force peace between Ukraine and Russia. You just live in fantasy land, it's not even worth to take what you say seriously at all. I'm sorry, but when someone provides a youtube video of chomsky instead of providing their own arguments, they have automatically lost the argument. This was an attempt at arguing from authority, which obviously will not work because I don't take Chomsky seriously. If you want to make a point, make the argument yourself instead of demanding from me to watch some silly video which you put zero effort into so that I need to then reply to the nonsense that is being aspoused.

Chomsky, oh my god, please.

You think the Gaza strip would have any of that if they were not supported by outside state actors? You really need to look at how state actors fund military groups for their own interest, because this discussion might as well be happening in a parallel universe. The less technologically advnaced the strip is, the easier it will be for state actors to radicalize them and use them for their own purposes. How do you think power vacuums work? You are still moralizing this. Yes, the lion will continue to hunt the gazelle, lest it die, and the gazelle has no other choice but to flee. This is how the world works, sometimes these types of situations are simply unresolvable. You should at least recognize the possibility of this, and that things are not nearly as simple from the perspective of the Israelis as you make it out to be, because obviously you are profoundly biased here. And I understand why you would be biased. The palestinians are the victims of the Israelis, they are being victimized. From their perspecitve, Israel is stealing their land. And of course they will try to fight for their land to not allow that to happen. But the reality is, both sides can be acting in their rational best interest while still being pitted against each other in an unfair manner. Like in the case of the lion and the gazelle, sometimes there simply is no resolution, no way to find harmony between both sides. And you should realize, considering how uniquily prolonged this conflict is, that it might be for those reasons, rather than the failure of moral character of the individual actors.

True, but again, from the perspective of the Israelis there is no difference. In the end, they have to risk their entire existence on this "What could work.". Would you be willing to do that? Last time you did it, you got HAMAS, and both sides suffered as a result. Now, you really are going to give them the West Bank, especially now after what HAMAS proved capable of? Don't be silly, this will not happen, human beings are way to pragmatic to allow for this to happen.

Yes, and why do you think this terror attack happened? Why do you think Iran is so invested in HAMAS? You are just arguing in a naively moralistic way that will not fly in anyone who is connected to actual reality. We aren't talk about some abstract notions here, to the Israeli's this is life and death, and of course they will steal some land here and there to ensure that. You can complain as long as you want about how unfair it is that the lion must eat the gazelle, that won't change the flow of nature.

Sure, but they will be radicalizing people either way, that's what you are missing. In fact, the whole West Bank will become infested with resistance forces that will seek to destroy Israel. This would most likely happen even without actors such as Iran being able to steer and manipulate the palestinians and fundamentalist organization. The situation is truly unsolvable from the perspective of the Israelis, and giving away an entire new piece of land in hopes to appear the palestinians, such as they did in Gaza and instantly got Hamas, is just no sane option to them. You live in fair tale land where people who have suffered for multiple generations, and believe they are fundamentally oppressed and that they homeland was taken away from them, will just relent if you give them a little bit of the garbage land back that they will be unable to do nothing with. They will still exist in horrendous poverty. They won't be any happier, especially once they realize that getting their land back doesn't actually do shit for them.

This is just ahistorical. HAMAS gained power in 2005 when Israel, under a liberal israeli regime, attempting to appease the palestinians, left the Gaza strip. You are naive to believe that the palestinians, and other state actors, will just stop once you give them some territory back, or if they will gain completey autonomy. What will happen is fundamentalist ideologies will fester and cause even more problems than there are now. This is a difficult reality to face, but that's sadly how the world tends to work.

Times used to be simpler, just kill your opponent and nobody will be left to complain. All those pesky morals getting in the way.

If the Israeli's leave the West Bank, what will immediately happen is that they will get HAMAS 2.0 funded by Iran and any actor that benefits from it. What do you think that will mean in the long term? More people will die, more wars will happen, because it is profoundly easy for state actors to use a discruntled stage red population and motivate them for a holy quest for Jerusalem. Especially considering they will continue to live in the stone ages indefinitely. This will not just go away, even if you will give the palestinans a "fair" solution, of course they will not be satisfied considering they lost their entire homeland to the jews. The palestinians still have to even establish a proper stage blue identity. They will never just say "Oh yes, I guess we will allow the jews to have the majority of what used to be ours, even though they have our holy sites, even though other state actors will propagandize us into hating the jews and wanting to destroy them." Remember, when Israel left Gaza, they got HAMAS for it.

The jewish had problems precisely because they didn't have a homeland for literally thousands of years, this is basic history. They weren't just mass murdered once, but multiple times in history. Of course from your perspective it's easy to say "Oh you don't need a country, just trust that you won't get holocausted again". The holocaust happened 80 years ago, and there is still anti-jewish sentiment all over the world. Just look at the US alone with Kanye West. It shouldn't be too hard to understand their motivations for moving to Isreal. But now it's too late anyways. They won't just leave, that's a delusional pipe dream, and the reality is, state actors in their vicinity do want to destroy the jewish people, and they do support genocidal organizations like HAMAS.

Apparently, HAMAS has released footage of the beheading of Israeli children. I refuse to watch this type of stuff, however I do wonder how long the left will keep supporting what is happening once they get confronted with footage like this. We also have women being enslaved and literally called, and treated, as sex slaves. And you have to understand that these people proudly broadcast this type of stuff to the world.

My sympathies to you. You have been dealt with a difficult calling and responsibility that, I think you are right, most of us here do not really understand. I hope you will be able to maintain your own humanity while you aid the defense of your people.

People are as naive about this as they are with the russio-ukrainian conflict, thinking that we will somehow get peace if we just negotiate properly. That's fairy tale land, and just shows there is a profound lack of understanding human nature and both sides of the conflict.

The entire reason HAMAS is such a big player is because Israel left the Gaza strip in an attempt to give palestenians back some autonomy. The problem is, HAMAS will never stop, no matter how much Israel will return to the palestinians at this point. You will never be able to just go back to peace, especially considering we have Iran invested in peace never occuring. They will ensure conflicts continue as long as there is room for them.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/israelhamas-war-woman-paraded-naked-by-militants-identified-as-german-tattoo-artist-101696752176453.html

Actually, they will just continue what they do now and steal their land until they have none left.

I don't buy that leftist conspiracy theory. Well, usually someone eventually wins. The problem is of course, that the Israelis are too developed to do what is necessary to win the war, which in some sense is good, but in another sense might actually prolong the suffering. Either way, pretending there is a solution even though there is no, is not really tenable either.

They made peace and they got HAMAS. You don't understand that you can't make peace with stage red people, they are not developed enough. They need an islamic state to unify them all under one absolutist ideology before they can even start thinking about silly things such as peace and freedom. This is so american. You think they care about liberty and property rights. These people want to destroy Israel solely because it's their holy land and they are the spawns of the devil.

One of the problems you also don't realize is that, when Israel left the Gaza strip all the way back in 2005, it was actually what allowed for HAMAS to take hold and become the major player it is today, becoming a significant security threat to Israel. So, to you it is all simple and Israel should just leave the palestinians alone, but the reality is that it is a continual security threat to them. If they just remove themselves from the West Bank, there is no predicting what kind of powers could take hold, especially with foreign actors being interested in creating a Dombass type situation. In my view the anaylsis here is a little too simplistic, because there are so many factors at play here that all complicate the situation. And HAMAS stated goal, from the very beginning, so all the way back when Israel left the Gaza strip under a fairly liberal regime, was to eradicate the jewish population from Israel. This is the problem with these naive moralistic understandings you have. We are talking about having people of stage red as your direct neighbours.

It is relevant if the land itself is important for security measures. Is all of the land important? I'm sure it's not, but it becomes a complicated question. Either way, not being vegan is worse than pushing someone out of their homes.

This is so far from the truth lol, Iran is by far the bigger actor and is invested in the destruction of Israel. And alliances can change, you can't just assume you can rely on that. This is such a weird view, it's like you are arguing for what you were supposed to be arguing when Russia invaded Ukraine, but you do it in the exact situation where there actually is a valid security concern.

I don't view it from a moralistic sense. I think, realistically, this is too much of a security concern for them to uphold some moralistic ideals while they are basically in a constant state of war. Remember, we are talking about a population of less than 10 million people, Iran alone has 9x that population. I think sometimes it is hard to grasp how outnumbered Israel is, and how easy a genuine situation could occur that would be the equivalent of the holocaust. You can't even stop paying for slaughterhouses because you don't want to feel less energetic and so forth, how are you having these types of standards for Israeli, who exist in a far worse context and do things far less aggregious than your own behaviour? Obviously they need to try to adapt, it's not a fair situation for them. But I don't know if the Israeli's can afford empathy in the state they are in. Maybe they can and I am wrong in my assessment, I just wouldn't be so sure that they can, and project my own morality onto them. They are not wiping them out, and HAMAS doesn't exist to protect palestinians. They are moving them out of their homelands, which is shitty, but in the end, you have to understand that there will be no solution to this situation, that would require wisdom on both sides which, due the very situation those sides find themselves in, will not be acquired.

Because Russia is not surrounded by states that want to eradicate them and their entire race. The question is not whether they are wrong however, but whether it is a arbitrary or a genuine goal in terms of national security. Meaning, can you defend yourself if you do not hold certain territory? The problem is once you withdraw aid you lose negotation power completely, you lose influence completely. This is like, dipomacy 101. You want to have at least some influence, because it is better to nudge them a little bit in the right direction than have no influential power at all. Diplomacy is very pragmatic, and it needs to be, so a lot of people usually demand a type of moral idealism in diplomacy when that is really not the appropriate place to do so. It would be different if it was a more egregious violation of rights. But as we speak now, HAMAS is must be destroyed and Israel should be supported in that endeavor.

I am saying stopping all aid if you don't meet our moral standards is a blunt diplomatic tool that will lead to more harm than good.