Scholar

The entire reason HAMAS is such a big player is because Israel left the Gaza strip in an attempt to give palestenians back some autonomy. The problem is, HAMAS will never stop, no matter how much Israel will return to the palestinians at this point. You will never be able to just go back to peace, especially considering we have Iran invested in peace never occuring. They will ensure conflicts continue as long as there is room for them.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/israelhamas-war-woman-paraded-naked-by-militants-identified-as-german-tattoo-artist-101696752176453.html

Actually, they will just continue what they do now and steal their land until they have none left.

I don't buy that leftist conspiracy theory. Well, usually someone eventually wins. The problem is of course, that the Israelis are too developed to do what is necessary to win the war, which in some sense is good, but in another sense might actually prolong the suffering. Either way, pretending there is a solution even though there is no, is not really tenable either.

They made peace and they got HAMAS. You don't understand that you can't make peace with stage red people, they are not developed enough. They need an islamic state to unify them all under one absolutist ideology before they can even start thinking about silly things such as peace and freedom. This is so american. You think they care about liberty and property rights. These people want to destroy Israel solely because it's their holy land and they are the spawns of the devil.

One of the problems you also don't realize is that, when Israel left the Gaza strip all the way back in 2005, it was actually what allowed for HAMAS to take hold and become the major player it is today, becoming a significant security threat to Israel. So, to you it is all simple and Israel should just leave the palestinians alone, but the reality is that it is a continual security threat to them. If they just remove themselves from the West Bank, there is no predicting what kind of powers could take hold, especially with foreign actors being interested in creating a Dombass type situation. In my view the anaylsis here is a little too simplistic, because there are so many factors at play here that all complicate the situation. And HAMAS stated goal, from the very beginning, so all the way back when Israel left the Gaza strip under a fairly liberal regime, was to eradicate the jewish population from Israel. This is the problem with these naive moralistic understandings you have. We are talking about having people of stage red as your direct neighbours.

It is relevant if the land itself is important for security measures. Is all of the land important? I'm sure it's not, but it becomes a complicated question. Either way, not being vegan is worse than pushing someone out of their homes.

This is so far from the truth lol, Iran is by far the bigger actor and is invested in the destruction of Israel. And alliances can change, you can't just assume you can rely on that. This is such a weird view, it's like you are arguing for what you were supposed to be arguing when Russia invaded Ukraine, but you do it in the exact situation where there actually is a valid security concern.

I don't view it from a moralistic sense. I think, realistically, this is too much of a security concern for them to uphold some moralistic ideals while they are basically in a constant state of war. Remember, we are talking about a population of less than 10 million people, Iran alone has 9x that population. I think sometimes it is hard to grasp how outnumbered Israel is, and how easy a genuine situation could occur that would be the equivalent of the holocaust. You can't even stop paying for slaughterhouses because you don't want to feel less energetic and so forth, how are you having these types of standards for Israeli, who exist in a far worse context and do things far less aggregious than your own behaviour? Obviously they need to try to adapt, it's not a fair situation for them. But I don't know if the Israeli's can afford empathy in the state they are in. Maybe they can and I am wrong in my assessment, I just wouldn't be so sure that they can, and project my own morality onto them. They are not wiping them out, and HAMAS doesn't exist to protect palestinians. They are moving them out of their homelands, which is shitty, but in the end, you have to understand that there will be no solution to this situation, that would require wisdom on both sides which, due the very situation those sides find themselves in, will not be acquired.

Because Russia is not surrounded by states that want to eradicate them and their entire race. The question is not whether they are wrong however, but whether it is a arbitrary or a genuine goal in terms of national security. Meaning, can you defend yourself if you do not hold certain territory? The problem is once you withdraw aid you lose negotation power completely, you lose influence completely. This is like, dipomacy 101. You want to have at least some influence, because it is better to nudge them a little bit in the right direction than have no influential power at all. Diplomacy is very pragmatic, and it needs to be, so a lot of people usually demand a type of moral idealism in diplomacy when that is really not the appropriate place to do so. It would be different if it was a more egregious violation of rights. But as we speak now, HAMAS is must be destroyed and Israel should be supported in that endeavor.

I am saying stopping all aid if you don't meet our moral standards is a blunt diplomatic tool that will lead to more harm than good.

Wait a second! So, yo ucan defend your house without stealing other people's houses, but somehow when Russia does that to Ukraine and the Dombass region suddenly it is a rational geopolitical goal? How does that even make sense. Of course grabbing land is one of the way you ensure national security.

Because people are incredibly biased, I blame stage green.

Sure, I just wouldn't be so sure about your approach. Israel is at it's developmental stage, and I agree we should encourage fair treatment of palestinians. But you are suggesting the usage of a very blunt tool. Usually not being sensitive to the stage of other countries only leads to more suffering. Less support of Israel could mean more suffering for Israelis and Palestinians. So we have to be more mature than just project our moralistic ideals and then refuse to aid anyone who does not meet them.

HAMAS would be doing what it does even if Israel stopped all stealing of land, and in fact, even if it gave back much of the stolen land and granted palestinians equal rights. They have their own stage-red/blue motivations. They genuinely want to eradicate Israel from the face of the planet, at this point it is a completely self-sustaining ideology.

The problem with what you are seeing here is that I think you are missing an essential aspect of societal evolution. The way societies adapt and survive is through general moralistic attitudes and frameworks. So, to you, you think "Oh, Israel can be a strong nation defending itself from it's neighbours who want to destroy them, be at war with HAMAS who are hellbent on destroying them even if they stop settling, but at the same time they should not be so right wing that they will settle in ways that are unfair and go beyond their national security needs!". But that's not how any of this works. You can't just have the best of all worlds, that requires stage yellow, as you should know. You are expecting way too much from them.

You forget the being surrounded by children who would kill them on the basis of their ethnicity if they had the opportunity.

It depends on the situation. I would reserve judgement. What is clearly unethical though is funding factory farms so that you feel a little more energy during the day. That's easy to say for you, not living in the middle east, surrounded by states and people who want to eradicate your race.

Sure, that is what will naturally happen. I think however the reality with HAMAS is not as simple. A lot of it is driven by outside actors, so while it is an outlet of palestinian valid frustration, I also believe it is a kind of dysfunctional outgrowth which is used by opportunists. But you have to admit that the way Israel is going about establishing a foothold is far more ethical than pretty much any other historical example you could think of. I would say what is happening in China alone, with the Uyghur people, is worse in pure ethical terms. The killings, from what I understand, are mostly a result of the violent conflict and power struggle, and of course the deaths will affect palestinians disproportionately, so I would view that as a seperate issue. But overall, I would say they are handling things farely well, considering how humans usually act.

I will cease this conversation with you because you are not able to engage with the substance of what I am saying.

This isn't what being rational means. They are not actually achieving their purpose, they in fact achieve the opposite. They will lose more land now, not less. They will get destroyed if Israel plays this right. By your logic, I as a vegan be rational and go on a killing spree because "That's the only means I have, I have no other choice but to kill you people because you don't want to go vegan!". This would be the case if everyone was hellbent on continuing to consume animal products. There is a point where the moral thing to do is to submit to the greater force of nature. If you do not do so, you will simply cause more harm and suffering. And in this situation, we are talking about forces of nature. Israel has no other choice in this situation. Sure, it is to some degree understandable, but it is still ignorant. And at some point, the greater natural force will have no choice but to extinguish any resistance. That is how human civilization has always, and still does, evolve.

You have more of a duty to advocate for the end of factory farms than you have for advocating for any type of human suffering that currently exists on this planet. Don't give me this nonsense about morality. You are completely and utterly self-serving, much more so than the Israeli's are. And of course you guys were justifying what HAMAS did, don't move the goal post. I said from the beginning, the palestinians have every right to defend themselves. What constitues rational defense is another question. This is like a lion and a gazelle. Of course the gazelle can kick the lion if it tries to eat it. But the lion is not wrong for trying to survive, even if it is unfair. This is what you are too biased to see.

Of course it does. I am not morally justified to go on a killing spree because people are not vegan, because it would not change anything and make the situation worse. Morality is directly linked to what is rational. Israel is justified in self-preservation. HAMAS reaction is expected to some degree, however much of it is fueled by outside nationstate actors. Point 3 is not true, this is delusional and biased.

Of course, every person on this planet is driven by something, including all rapists and murderers that ever lived. This doesn't change that HAMAS is acting contrary to any of their perceived goals, harming the Palestinians more, and therefore being irrational, while the Israeli's genuinely are acting in their interest, even if not perfectly. What you perceive as gross injustice is self-preservation for someone else. What is more injustice is that individuals have to be tortured and killed so you can feel a little better and have a little more energy during the day. And yet, you point to the Israeli's and claim they are committing atrocities. They are not as bad as you think, even if it is not fair for the palestinians. The palestinians are valid in the way they feel, there is simply no good solution in this situation, so the injustice will continue, as slavery had to continue for thousands of years for the sake of self-preservation. This is no different.

No, HAMAS is not justified because their actions are senseless and irrational. They don't achieve any goal, in fact, the opposite of their goal. I can't just go on a killing spree because nobody wants to go vegan, contemplate how insane that is. Israel has attempted to create peace, you are just too biased to recognize this. You don't appreciate true dilemmas.