Scholar

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-forensic-teams-describe-signs-torture-abuse-2023-10-15/ https://news.sky.com/story/israel-gaza-war-recovered-bodies-show-bloodthirsty-gunmen-took-time-over-torture-and-that-hamas-has-changed-12985212#:~:text=

Yes, apartheid for actualized.org/forum.

We need an ascension system where all the reasonable people get a special secret section in the forum so they can discuss things without the noise.

I am no longer wasting my time trying to educate children. I made all those points already in this thread. If you cannot see how immature people in this thread engage with this topic, I don't know what to say. The abysmal quality of discussion here is something that makes me feel like I am wasting my time on this forum in general.

This is how an adult engages with the topic: I want you to watch this and compare this to how you engage with this topic. In general, what I see in here is constant moralization, blaming-games, and reactionary-outrage. This is not productive and will not help anyone, neither the israelis nor the gazans. You have to be mindful of the social dynamics so they do not capture you. You have a basic moral duty to not make this situation worse than it already is, which you do when you ignorantly continue to stoke the same flames that infected you. It is blinding you to understanding the topic, and if you as a bystander cannot have an objective view of this situation, how can we hope that either side in this conflict ever will? As someone who is following Leo's content, you should have far higher expectations for yourself.

This should be a mandatory watch for all of your outrage cows, because you basically got caught up by the social media processing plant (which happens to everyone if not mindful of this):

Well if people are going to shitpost I will as well:

Blame blame blame!

Reading some sane articles makes you realize just how far removed from reality the twitter discourse is, especially this delusional notion that palestinians don't have any other choice but to basically slaughter Israeli infants "for freedom". It's just so utterly ahistorical and ignorant of how actual emancipation movements have occured that you might as well dismiss anyone who continues to spout these nonsense talking points.

Excellent journalism from germany: https://zeitung.faz.net/faz/feuilleton/2023-10-14/0480b6c57ef295b7a009bda12056a47d/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-de-de

Muslims around the world don't give a shit about the palestinians. None of them will accept them in their own countries, and when they did they expelled them because the palestinians started biting the hand that fed them. The only reason why muslims care about this issue is because it is the jews who are committing the atrocities, not any other reason. I just can't engage with you people anymore. Your brains are basically just a social media trained outrage-blame machines. There is no conversation to even be had. You lost the plot. Your only priority is to put all blame on Israel, and if you have to frame Hamas and their terrorist attack as some sort of outburst of the palestinian people and conflate the Gazans with these barbarians, you will do so. You will encourage the palestinians to fight this senseless war, just like Hamas wants, and rather than doing what will lead to peace, you will do what you believe to be righteous. And of course, the palestinians are going to be the ones who suffer primarily as a result. Netanyahu would be proud that you basically do exactly what he would have wanted you to. You are actually not that different from Hamas, this is just an ideological war for you.

This is a good example of people being completely captured by the narrative of Hamas being some sort of authentic expression of palestinian resistance. Which is precisely what they want so they can continue to use Palestinians as cannon-fodder for their holy war.

You can make an argument that some forms of terrorism or military action against your oppressors is justified, but certainly not what Hamas did. We also know that Hamas is not interested in the emancipation of the palestinian people. When the poles were genocided by the germans, violent resistance was justified. What was not justified was to go around to intentionally kill german civilians, including targetting infants, to provoke some sort of holy a war. If the polish resistance had acted that way, they would have rightfully been called out for losing their humanity, and therefore having lost any moral ground they stood on. Be careful that in the process of fighting monsters, you yourself do not become one too.

I think even without war crimes the death toll will be very high. Sure, if Israel started genociding palestinians it would be a different question, but that is not happening. You can't just create a condition that Israel knows you cannot uphold. If it comes to a regional war, the US will get involved no matter what Israel does right now. Some war crimes will occur and the US can criticize it, however creating condition support seems exceptionally undiplomatic and kind of naive. I just don't see diplomacy working this way, it's almost a childish way of trying to have your way, which is just not how these things are ever handled, thankfully, because we know it does not work. I think the US is supporting Israel and supporting rule of law and humane action, Biden took the best course of diplomatic action. You also have to understand what types of incentives you create for Hamas if the conditional for winning the war becomes the participating in warcrimes. Also, let's not be ridiculous, there is probably an understanding on both sides that if Israel goes too far it might lose support. I don't think this has to be said explicitly, and it could come off as pretty insulting as a result of the insinuations being made. Such a statement could also be used by Israel's enemies to bolster their cause. Threatening to withhold your support is basically something you only do once things start hitting the fan, otherwise you just risk worsening of diplomatic relations. You can't just go "Oh and better be careful Israel, if you do too much war crime we won't help you any longer!" before any crimes were committed. Just look at how that would come off in this situation.

I don't know how viable that is considering the US has to basically have unwavering support for Israel so as to not provoke other actors to join the war, including Iran. The US has to support Israel, even if 50k Gazans will die. So even if they say it is conditional, they would in the end have to support Israel either way, which would then make their threat look empty, while having given room for other actors to feel comfortable enough to escalate the war. From what I understand Israel is behaving exceptionally careful in this, contrary to how it is being reported. I do expect a large number of casualities even under optimal conditions. You also have to consider, if the US was in this position, the Gaza strip would be dust already. I wager the US has an understanding that "What needs to be done, needs to be done.".

I've had a discussion with someone on how to advocate for the palestinian people in Gaza right now, and it seems Biden has done exactly as I had recommended: The reality of the situation is that Israel is in the position of power. People who, after what happened to Israel, try to put all the blame on Israel and use it as an opportunity to call out their atrocities, and focus on how Hamas is only an expression of valid palestinian frustration against the evil imperial apartheid state, are in my opinion only increasing the potential for war and unnecessary death right now. No matter who is at fault, Israel right now is in a rage after what happened to it. If you want to help palestinians, you must show compassion to Israel, you must condemn Hamas and you must clarify that palestinian civilians are not Hamas and do not support Hamas and believe Hamas is disgusting and must be destroyed. That should have been the rally call of all Palestinian advocates, to show Israel that they have a united enemy.

Emperor Joe Biden got Israel to resume the flow of water into Gaza:

You are getting your takes from Dugin?

It's so funny we live in a reality where there is a real chunk of truth in what Jordan Peterson has so long been talking about in regards to marxists: And I still blame social media for most of it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/13/world/middleeast/hamas-iran-israel-attack.html?smid=nytcore-android-share If you don't have access to nytimes you can read it here: Note that this is not about freeing palestinians. This is primarily about a general Arab-Israel conflict. It's important to remember this because the perpetrators of this act did not do it for the sake of the palestinian people. It seems there is confirmed intel now that this is supposed to be the first step to a total war with Israel which seeks to destroy the state entirely.

It's actually sad to see how many leftists conflate Hamas with valid palestinian resistance. If they had immediately spoken out about Hamas this way, and subsequently criticizes Israel, people would have much more sympathy for their cause now. The lefts response would have been akin to a vegan terrorist killing a bunch of meat eaters, and then all the vegans going "Free the animals!" as an immediate response while refusing to condemn the terrorist action. You lost the plot at that point, and you are actually destroying your own cause. Not only that, you will encourage far more unnecessary suffering because of you childish refusal of criticizing your own side, which you should not even view as your own side in the first place.

Some of the points being made here should give you a clue to how multi-fasceted this issue is. There are a lot of near-unsolvable issues that all contribute to the current state this region is in.