Scholar

I have heard of him but haven't read any of his books. I know he made the argument from marginal cases popular: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_marginal_cases It basically states that there is no difference between animals and humans that would justify our treatment of them without justifying some form of it in the human context. Any difference we will find that we would apply to humans would make us look like psychopaths if then decided to take their right to life away. For example, someone mentally handicapped might be on the same level of intelligence and consciousness as any specific animal, if we were to take the difference in intelligence as justification to treat animals the way we treat them, we would have to accept the same for mentally handicapped people. This basically reveals a fundamental bias we have towards accepting arguments to kill other species but not accepting the same arguments when it is about our own species. The argument basically reveals that the only thing we truly care about, and why we truly care about human beings in the first place, is their capacity for sentience and suffering. After all, I can modify you in any way I want, as long as you are capable of experiencing suffering, you will not want to experience suffering. It's not like if I turn you into a cow you suddenly will be fine with someone killing you.

Any suggestions?

I have been experimenting with L-Theanine for some time now and it seems like it doesn't really work well for me. It makes me super spaced out, feeling empty but relaxed. I can't really visualize on it at all, it makes drawing for me really difficult. It's like there is nothing there, I feel really floaty. I have been combining it with coffee aswell and it doesn't really do much for my focus. Anyone here had similar effects? Might it be just a bad supplement or what? I can't really work this way so I will stop using it. It also makes it harder for me to fall asleep when I take it in the evening. I don't have this kind of feeling when I drink green or black tea.

This is not about shoulds and shouldnts. It is about desirable ways of functioning within reality. You can function however you want, I am simply showing you where your kind of thinking will lead to. If you don't like human slavery, you better change the way you are thinking, because your way of thinking can be used to justify human slavery. It isn't about absolute shoulds, it is about hypothetical imperatives. The way you justify your beliefs contradicts your own beliefs. It is undesirable for you, if you were to objectively inspect how you act and what you desire. Of course I am justifying my beliefs, everyone is. Again, it is not about the mere fact that I am justifying beliefs, it is about how we justify our beliefs. If you believe everyone can justify their beliefs however you want, then you for example wouldn't be referring me to Leo's video about shoulds and shouldnts. Just because you do not explicitely use these words does not mean you do not operate in a framework of shoulds and shouldnts. Shoulds and shouldnts go far beyond language. This is not about "Should there be human rights?", but about "Do we want there to be human rights?". I think if you stepped back and reflected upon what I am trying to say, you would find that there are ways of thinking that you belief to be undesirable. Ways of thinking that will lead to your own suffering and to the suffering of those you love. You will realize that the way you think, the way your mind operates, is unsustainable for you. How could you, after all, criticize someone to discriminate against black people when you yourself to do the same to beings you put into special categories? My impression is that you just haven't read a lot on this topic, and you also have not made yourself familiar with these basic philosophical principles. It's not about whether you should or shouldnt in an absolute sense, but whether you should or shouldnt if you want to reach a world that is more loving and "good", whatever you might view good to be. But you are right, at this point it is getting off topic, if you want we can continue this somewhere else.

I am not equating anything, I am creating comparisons. This is actually a very common misunderstanding found in moral philosophy, and it is usually done as a defense mechanism. I was not comparing human slavery to animal slavery, what I did was use the logic you use to justify animal slavery to illustrate how one could use the same logic, the same type of thinking, to justify human slavery. The point here is not that "human slavery is as bad as animal slavery", but that your thinking and the way you justify your beliefs is very obviously flawed if we were to use it in any other context. The inability to recognize the flawed nature of your thinking is the indicator for the bias you have towards a certain position. This is why it is very obvious to you how flawed these arguments are in a human context, but yet you accept the same type of logic in the animal context. The thing here is that this illustrates how human beings were able to create moral frameworks, or any ideology, by create a cognitive dissonance which allows them to continue operating with contradictory beliefs. This is not about a difference in valuing a certain type of being, this is about how your ego comes to construct it's positions and their justifications. This is where devilry is found. All I can tell you is the same ego-mechanisms which allow you to discriminate against animals is the exact same ego-mechanism that allowed slavers to keep black slaves and be fine with it. Again, it's not about positions, but about how we come to those positions.

I think they are, because you have created a framework of belief based solely on experiences that you would deem supernatural. You justify these beliefs by putting authority into experiences that might be limited and limiting. For example, of how many spirits do you know that report that slavery is wrong? You could insert any kind of act that causes suffering and find a way to ground your justification in a certain type of experience. To me that is similar to the type of "bullshitting oneself" that this topic is about.

Spirits can become a problem when all they tell you is took on blind faith, like for example believing animals are lesser beings and therefore not treating them with respect. The devilry can exist in the spirits too, they can limit your identity, especially when they resonate with your energy that is already compressed. I think you are a good example for that. The devil will plant his seed among truth.

Yes, dismiss everything I say as nonsense. Call that which goes against your beliefs gibberish. Be arrogant. Doesn't sound like devilry at all.

Lol, how you just took that phrase completely out of context and how deified Sadhguru is in your mind is just the most ironic and beautiful way to prove me point. It could not have been done in a better way.

I would worry more about it being corrupted by people like you, who put absolute trust into it. The deeper problem is that Sadhguru did not communicate to you the skepticism and autonomy that is required for this kind of thing to be less corruptable. If it truly was less corruptable, you would be sitting here being worried about how Sadhguru might be deluded and how he could have a blindspot, how even Sadhguru might not be able to overcome the forces of the ego. The best sign that Leo is doing a good job is by seeing how skeptical people are about him, even his followers. It is probably very difficult to have a good balance between being an authority and still have your students be autonomous, and I think that is something that Sadhguru simply has not as much awarenss of as Leo, it does not seem that way to me.

The fact that you think it is uncorruptable is the best indicator for how easily corruptable it will be.

I feel like when we take the environmental damage in consideration and future prospects if we continue doing what we are, that atleast in the western world even from the perspective of human survival it would still be an imperative to at least transform the most damaging forms of animal agriculture. Do we really have 100 years to solve this? I feel like if we had a cultural movement here that would push and invest into technology like lab grown meat that it wouldn't take us as long. But people aren't even aware of how damaging animal agriculture is, let alone the moral implications. If our world wasn't in such a dire state we could take our time but we have taken such a path that I don't know if it is possible. It doesn't seem like the next few decades will get any better, but far worse, as far as environmental destruction goes. Is it not maybe time to create a momentum for more radical action? It's strange to me how nature puts us into these situations, it's like there are checkboxes for survival. "Better get along before you invent nuclear weapons" "Better start caring about your environment before it bites you in the ass" Sometimes I feel like we are barely good enough to pass the tests and that one day we will fail and another species who will be more evolved in the future will be able to navigate all of this in a manner which allows it to thrive. It's like reality cannot allow something to continue to survive if it does not evolve certain traits. What if dolphines or other cetaceans are the future? They seem to have a much higher capacity for empathy, which would prohibit them from the kind of self-destruction we are causing. What if dolphines are actually more evolved than we are, what if they have a greater potential? One could argue they would have to find a way to somehow get their hands on tools and the like, but what if they evolve differently? What if there could be an animal with a far higher capacity for spirituality than us?

But if we truly were to feel that we are everyone else, would we not feel our utmost imperative to be to fight against the animal agriculture? After all, compared to human suffering, the suffering found as result of our consumption is far, far greater than the suffering of all human beings during the entire history of mankind. Trillions of selves being killed in gruesome ways every year, compared to the suffering of a few hundred million human being selves. Especially when we consider that animals most likely have a more vivid experience of life and therefore their emotional suffering is more amplified, considering they do not have intellectual frameworks to navigate reality as humans do. A good question to ask is, would you rather live every life of every person who was killed in the jewish holocaust, or would you rather live the lifes of every animal that is killed as a result of animal agriculture? That is literally more lifes each year than there have been humans born in all of earths history. I think we all know the answer to that, yet we do not behave accordingly at all. The question is, how could a sane, non-biased being not find this the most pressing moral and political issue? Just by putting yourself into the position and trying to quantify the suffering, I don't think any exclusive human problem comes even close to it. The only argument that could be made is that prioritizing human suffering will result in a quicker abolishment of animal agriculture. But I feel like that same argument can be made from a place of bias towards human suffering, as an excuse to shut out the suffering that is caused to other species.

Mark Rowlands has been using it as an argument for animal rights, stating that if we were to design a truly just society we would consider all sentient life as we would not know whether we might be born as a different species. In the end it's basically just the Golden Rule in a different form.

It's called the Veil of Ignorance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance

Do you think that the less ego someone has the less he will feel skeptical about different ideas? Skepticism exist for survival, so when there is no attachment to survival, do you not think it might make a mind more prone to believe in inaccurate ideas?

I think Destiny's position is that these socialist ideas will not be effective as a way of advocacy for change. In his view we should do it step by step, focus on specific policy issues that everyone can agree on to have gradual change towards progression. He doesn't see a lot of value in idealistic socialist utopia's because to him they are more of a distraction, especially when you have socialists who focus only on that and not on actual policy that can be effected today.

I feel like Biden is mostly blue anyways, he is kind of an opportunist. He is using progressive ideas for political gain rather than truly valuing them.

I like Destiny, he is intellectually honest and will change his position if he views the other side as more reasonable. I wouldn't say lefties hate him, it is more of the socialist/communist part of the left that dislikes him. To be fair though, he does reveal how a lot of them do not really have any viable solutions to capitalism. I think he agrees with the critiques of capitalism, but was not yet compelled of an alternative which would realistically solve any of the problems we are facing without creating an entirely new set of probably even more devastating problems. He is more of a Soc-Dem than anything else. When he is against a specific policy it is usually because of data that would imply that the policy is more harmful than productive. He does not argue from a position of morality. He would not say "minimum wage is bad because people don't deserve it" but rather "Every economist I read says it's a bad idea". I think what one could criticize him for is that he is not willing to do research into socialism himself, rather he would want someone to come along and convince him why it is a meaningful solution in our current environment. He is not just "ranting" against communism and socialism, he actually invites any socialist to come on his stream and debate him on the topic, and so far it really does not look good for the socialists. They basically have a problem with capitalism, which he will agree with, but then suggest a vague idea of a socialist system which could not possibly be implemented right now and would basically require a world-wide revolution to function. It seems to be the case that there is a viable critique of capitalism, which was obvious for a long time now, but no solutions other than social democracy, which is what we are going towards anyways. Where do you think is his understanding lacking specifically? I am not well read on socialism.

Have you heard of Vivo? I don't eat too much veggies so feel much better when I am using it, specifically Vivo Thrive. It's made of natural ingredients and kind of covers key nutrients that might be lacking in a vegan diet. Also has Lion's Mane in it and probiotics, certified by nutritionists. A little expensive but it has been worth it for me. I usually don't feel too optimal because of how lazy I am with my meals.

Stop with what? There is no hostility here

So you think I am projecting when I am accusing you of being attached to your teacher position? How do you know it is not a genuine way of looking at your behaviour? I honestly do think you have an attachment to being "the teacher", and I think you often do not recognize that the "teaching" might not have a good effect because you are too attached to it. Sometimes it is better to adopt a position of being level with the one you want to teach, not always is it good to view them from above. Especially when you are trying to understand them. Whether you understand my perspective or not, I do not think you did a good job to make me feel like you are understanding me. Rather it feels like I am misunderstood and that you are talking passed me to be in your teacher role.

Not a game, a play. Like a theatre play.

I disagree Sero. I actually think you strongly identifying with being "evolved" and high up the spiral. Your thoughts are constructed very carefully because your identity depends on being someone who is conscious and aware of itself. I don't take such a serious approach, I had one experience of the absurdity of realness and it was enough to kind of tickle that out of me. To me the dynamic here is enjoyable, it is a play. I think you would probably notice if you were to read multiple posts on this forum how much I can vary in personality. I use personality very much like a tool, right now I am a little bit of a trickster, as I think that is the most appropriate way to interact. I don't care if I come off as ignorant, atleast not always. Infact sometimes I deliberately play ignorant to have a conversation play out in a way I would view as more enjoyable or insightful. However, the Nessness is something I find very useful, I think it could help many people. There is a sort of immersion that I am trying to get people out of. What my ego is indeed attached to are the animals that are suffering though. It would be inauthentic for me to ignore that. This is after all why we are having this discussion.

I don't have any relationship to the content though other than enjoying creating it. Otherwise I would still stuck being a subjectivist/relativist.