Shane Hanlon

https://chatgpt.com/share/678fceb2-82f4-800c-ba19-be2116a908f0

https://chatgpt.com/share/678fce00-54a4-800c-8ee5-c4ae285e69f7

I think you are incredibly intelligent and have such a depth of wisdom and love to share. Absolutely no shade and no ill will. I think you are overlooking something important and profound here.

Perhaps, but it will likely make things worse than better. Think more like millenia. And it only takes 30 days without food to die. I would seriously urge you to do a deep dive into ecology and how the biosphere functions. There is so many insights to have in that field of study.

I would urge you to reconsider these views. Ecologies are so interdependent that you can't affect any one part of it, without affecting all of it. Which is why it is so dangerous in the first place to change these Earth systems. And some of this doesn't have any substantiation. A forest like the Amazon will never grow back (on human time scales) to the richness and biodiversity it is at now if it collapses. CO2 cannot be removed at scale using any known technologies other than maintaining and nurturing existing ecosystems. I sense you are still lacking a deep dive into the physics of our ecological realities and their relationships with one another. It is speculative as to how exactly societies would collapse, but I would argue (and can substantiate this further if needed) that it is highly likely that they will collapse if no incentive structures are changed.

Most of these ecological crises are irreversible. How do you refreeze ice sheets? How do you reforest the amazon? How do you restart the AMOC? You can't. At least not on human timescales. But the rest of your response I hear. Even still, I think we have to do both. Prepare for post-collapse scenarios and ways to mitigate that damage as well as work to make systemic changes that prevent collapse and create a better world. Do you disagree with that?

Are there solutions within those parameters though? That sounds like admitting defeat before even trying. I'm not dismissing. Just challenging. I'm interested in how you think we could thread that needle. Can we work together to come up with real solutions that are better than what each of us comes up with on our own? For real.

To make an important distinction Rend. It doesn't require the majority of the global population, it takes islands of coherence and power. Which is still unlikely, but possible. This is a conversation I am thrilled to have. Where we can move this understanding forward in a productive way. I too believe we are unlikely to change systems for the better before the collapse. It doesn't take Einstein to see this. but, It can be improbable and at the same time, we should do everything we can to change our systems for the better. I want to double-click on this. I believe we should be trying everything we can to make a transition to a better world as wisely as possible. If you disagree with this premise let me know. But to build on top of that premise, How can small groups of strategic, informed, and caring people take the kind of action that has a higher chance of making a difference? This is where I feel we should be engaging.

Can someone explain something that is missing? sharing your opinion that you believe our systems are not going to change is not a flaw of metacrisis premises. It's the same thing with you two over and over. Proclaiming ever so bravely to the world that systems aren't going to change. Just because you don't believe systems can change, doesn't mean keeping current systems doesn't end in collapse. I want to believe you guys are trying to add something to the conversation. But you are yet to add it. If you have a serious deep dive to critique the metacrisis framework, I am all ears. But short sound bites mean nothing to me.

If you are so certain it is groupthink, say something to change my mind. I'm open to it. I'm not dogmatically following an ideology. I find Leo to have a lot of insight, but on this forum almost all of my responses to him are challenging his ideas. If I am missing something important I would be super grateful for you to show me this. After deeply studying it for two years almost full-time (I make enough money to be able to take huge chunks of time off for this kind of thing), I am highly confident in many of the metacrisis premises. I think there is some worry of overstating the dangers and also understating them. I think there is a warranted aversion to talking about solutions that also hinders progress towards better futures. I think it is dense and people's again warranted aversion towards reductionism ends up leaving out people who aren't intellectually gifted. These are some of my critiques of metacrisis premises. Tell me yours. You are so confident in your proclamations, surely you have some.

@aurum I have thought about it deeply for 2 years from many different perspectives. If you are going to critique it, be prepared to critique it. This is lazy.

I doubt it, but tell me more.

There’s not much time left before we hit points of no return, moments when the damage we’ve done can’t be undone, locking us into an increasingly unlivable future. Climate tipping points, like the melting of polar ice or the collapse of rainforests, threaten to set off unstoppable feedback loops. Waiting too long means risking the collapse of ecosystems that sustain us, food system breakdowns, and mass famine. Add to that the rising risk of nuclear conflict, the spread of engineered pathogens, and the destabilizing effects of AI, and it’s clear that the longer we wait, the fewer options we’ll have to turn things around. What’s even more alarming is how all of these crises are connected, feeding into each other and accelerating exponentially. A warming climate drives geopolitical tensions and resource conflicts. Industrial farming doesn’t just destroy biodiversity, it also sets the stage for global pandemics. AI technologies, far from being a solution, are speeding up economic inequality, misinformation, and competition over power. It’s a vicious cycle where each crisis makes the others worse, pushing the systems we depend on, our economies, our ecosystems, even our societies, closer to collapse. The truth is, our world is more fragile than it seems. Earth’s ecosystems are finely balanced, and they’re breaking down under the pressure we’ve put on them. Our global systems, from food supply chains to financial networks, are stretched so thin that they’re one major shock away from failing. If we keep waiting, we risk crossing thresholds that will permanently alter life as we know it. Acting now isn’t just the right thing to do, it’s the only way to keep our future from slipping through our fingers.

@Emerald It sounds like you and I have quite different neuroses and tendencies. It is a powerful refresher that the most healthy way I can be in relationship with the world is not the most healthy way for anyone else. Thank you so much for sharing yourself so personally and comprehensively. I admire you. Thank you for bringing mercy to the world. You deserve to fill up your cup.

@Emerald Wow, I am going to have to read this multiple times. You have so much to offer. I appreciate that we have different styles that are both entirely valid and I have a few more questions. Do you think this is a half-truth? How I understand it, is that change happens from both the inside and the outside and from ways we can't even conceptualize. I often think it doesn't even make sense to think of it as an inside and outside. Rather a whole confluence of co-creating changes from all angles with infinite ripples. I might have an "internal" change of heart that was influenced by an "external" documentary plus and "external" conversation with a friend plus an "internal" questioning of my own biases that was inspired by an "external" paper I read on confirmation bias plus a million other things and on and on. Maybe it is more accurately stated that "people prefer to change when they feel like they are making their own decision." What do you think? This sounds like a thoughtful way to care for your well-being, and I completely respect that. I don’t want to challenge what feels right for you right now, but I’d like to share a perspective that might resonate or might not. Sometimes, limiting our awareness to things we feel we can control can be a self-fulfilling prophecy and can unintentionally shape how we see ourselves and the world. While it’s true that our direct control is narrow, the ripple effects of our awareness and actions can be vast. Expanding our awareness, even into areas where we feel powerless, can sometimes open doors to unexpected forms of impact or insight and find possibilities we might not have seen otherwise This was a really beautiful framing that I had never heard before. Thank you for sharing that. While climate change is an undeniable crisis, it’s just one thread in a much larger and more intricate web of challenges. Sometimes, I wish climate change was the only thing we had to worry about. Understanding why thinkers like Daniel Schmachtenberger and Nora Bateson are so deeply concerned about the possibility of collapse required me to embark on a two-year deep dive. I immersed myself in scientific papers, ecological realities, historical momentum, economic systems, current trajectories, geopolitical tensions, and more. What I discovered changed me. This is not fearmongering, nor is it the product of emotionally driven thinking or motivated reasoning about collapse. It’s real. The interconnected fragility of our systems is undeniable and yet, so few see it. If you’re willing to look deeper, I urge you to explore the metacrisis. Even starting with ChatGPT can provide a window into the profound interdependence of everything. Our ecology, economies, cultures, and even the lives we share. You’ll begin to see how deeply connected we all are, not just to each other but to the systems that sustain or threaten life itself. This is not just an intellectual pursuit; it’s about the world we are leaving for our children. What kind of future are we truly preparing for them? Here are some key topics to explore as starting points: Planetary Boundaries: Investigate this concept and the ecological systems underpinning it. It reveals the profound limits and balances that sustain life. Moloch: Learn about the destructive incentive structures that drive unsustainable competition at all levels of society. Distributed Catastrophe Weapons: Understand how modern tools amplify risks and challenges across the globe. GDP and Growth-Oriented Economies: Explore the ways our economic systems push us toward ecological overshoot and social instability. Sensemaking, Social Media, Education, and Democracy: Consider how our collective capacity to understand and respond to crises is undermined by fragmented information systems. Energy, Materials, and Economics: Discover the limits of energy and material consumption in a finite world. Reductionism, Ecology, and Incentive Structures: Reflect on how our ways of thinking—isolated and mechanistic—obscure the interconnected realities of life. What you’ll find is profound, humbling, and urgent. And it matters. for you, for me, and for everyone who comes after us. What is your take on this?

I hear what you are saying. Making emotional decisions that you then post rationalize to align your thinking with your emotions is dysfunctional. But a more developed and healthy relationship allows your emotions to help clarify your seeing rather than cloud it. This isn't a burst of emotion. I have been vegan for 5 years. Thank you for clarifying this. I appreciate you.

I feel deeply emotionally moved. I'm not sure how helpful reducing these complex emotions down to a 1 to 10 number is.

@Emerald Thank you for your beautiful and thoughtful responses. I recognize the effectiveness of this approach, but I also don't know if it suits me. While it is deeply painful to be connected to the suffering, it is also immensely powerful and beautiful to maintain that sense of interdependence and connection to all other life. How do you navigate the tension between allowing other humans their internal sovereignty and contending with the animal's lack of any sovereignty? While there is progress in some areas, there is also destruction in others. Technologically we have advanced massively, in large part due to fossil fuels. We have new frameworks for making sense of the world, but can we truly say humanity is making progress in this context we are referencing if indigenous communities (that are now almost entirely wiped out) are lightyears ahead of us in their heart-wisdom? How do you understand that progress is being made? This is a beautiful idea. How can we create contexts that render that armor obsolete? Beautiful. We don't have centuries

@Emerald Or a response like this--seemingly not even trying to engage in what is being communicated at the cost of real harm and suffering. How do you emotionally relate to this? It hurts me.

@Emerald How do you emotionally contend with the rest of your family and loved ones contributing to all of this suffering? I struggle with this personally.

Symptoms of Broken Systems Climate Change Microplastics Biodiversity Loss AI Bots Loneliness Soil Degradation Factory Farming Arms Races War Misinformation Ocean Acidification All of these are mostly driven by just a handful of underlying dynamics. A capitalist economy built on exponential growth. Poor coordination between powers. The momentum of colonization. If we work to actively address these underlying dynamics, we have a chance. If we don't, a painful collapse is coming. This is an oversimplification for introductory purposes. If you look at humanity from a bird's eye view and squint, this is what you will see. It leaves out a lot of important complexity and is not in any way comprehensive. these are also not separate things as they all interact with and through each other. This is only meant to be a starting point for more research. If you want a more in-depth explanation of why this is the case, copy what I wrote and ask chatGPT questions about it.

@Emerald you are going off in this thread! I'm very impressed with your articulation of the dialectic between heart-based wisdom and intellectualization. Both are important and you talk about both so eloquently. I agree that in the context of this forum, there is a lot of intellectualization without grounding. People attempting to understand nuance without a heart rudder are lost in the sea of their minds. @Leo Gura You are right to point out that there are equally as many heart-based traps. However, in our current culture often dominated by scientism and materialism, we tend to lose the heart altogether. I see ungrounded intellectualism more often than I see confused Love. Not that either or is more important. Both And. Just to make a distinction here. There is a difference between moral righteousness and feeling deep empathy for the 400 billion to 3 trillion vertebrates killed every year for human consumption. Most of which are in factory-farmed conditions. Feeling into this and then having an emerging desire to change people's minds so they no longer contribute to this should not be conflated with moral righteousness and crusading.

Serious props need to be given to @Emerald @Something Funny @Scholar and @Michael569 I deeply appreciate you guys putting in the effort to address the same psychological pitfalls and lack of understanding that are brought up over and over again. I do not have the energy to do that. But it is really important work. For those genuinely considering a vegan diet here are high-quality resources. This article is one of the least biased pieces of media I have ever read and is chock full of relevant statistics. https://80000hours.org/problem-profiles/factory-farming/ Here is the most comprehensive study ever done on the environmental impacts of different diets. Download this and ask ChatGPT questions about it. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325532198_Reducing_food's_environmental_impacts_through_producers_and_consumers If you watch Earthling Eds debate videos, you will find that your exact argument comes up in almost every one of these. And you can see how your thinking could be flawed: If you want to see how animals are treated in our modern-day context this documentary is brutally honest, representative of 95%+ of all animals and free to watch. And finally, when you make it through the insane mess of an information-scape that we live in today, you will likely come out vegan. If we can live healthily and harmoniously without causing unnecessary harm to animals, it becomes a moral, ecological, and compassionate imperative to choose to do so.

I'd like to introduce Nora Bateson to this forum. She does not get the attention she deserves. Nora Bateson is the only other person I would put on the same level as Daniel Schmachtenberger when it comes to profound, systems-level thinking while maintaining a depth of heart. Her work embodies an extraordinary sense of interconnectedness and ecological understanding that feels deeply ingrained in her very way of being. She explores the relational dynamics that shape our world in ways that transcend traditional reductionist frameworks. If you’re familiar with Spiral Dynamics, Nora is a beautiful example of turquoise consciousness—her thinking will push you far beyond orange patterns of logic and analysis, challenging you to embrace the complexity, nuance, and interdependence of life. My heart is always more open after I have listened to her. Nora talking with Susanne Cook-Greuter: Nora Speaking with Daniel: A more recent conversation with Nora:

I understand why you might feel that way, and I can't deny that greed, ego, and unconsciousness have a strong grip on humanity. But I think there's value in holding progressive expectations. Not as rigid demands, but as guiding stars. They remind us of what we can strive for, even if the path is long and filled with setbacks. Letting go of attachment to outcomes can bring peace, but letting go of hope entirely is apathetic. I’d rather engage with the world as it is, while still nurturing the seeds of what it could be. Even small acts of awareness and care ripple outward. That might not overturn the tides in my lifetime, but it’s worth the effort to me. For me, that’s what it means to live in alignment with Love.