Frogfucius

You'll continue to come from a place of authenticity, and be who you truly are. You'll no longer be living someone else's life, or how society says you should live. You'll disassociate from your old identity, which will come with resistance. The old habits and interests will try and persist, but will melt away over time into something more authentic. Good luck!

In a college class last semester, I met a gentleman who said he travels to the Amazon for two weeks out of the year to live among an indigenous group of people. He said he travels there because he studies herbal medicine. He had some pretty interesting insights to share about tribal people. The only thing he would bring with him is a modernized fishing pole. A major food source for the people there is fish, and they put him in task of fishing. He brings in an abundance of fish, so the people there are really grateful for him and accept him as a member of the tribe. He also said the people in the tribes are really happy. They don't have the stresses of modern society, and they enjoy living in nature. Interestingly, these people don't have a concept of time. There is no 'tomorrow' for them, because there is only one moment. They place little importance on age. Even though my classmate is in his 40s, the people there don't have a concept of age, so they consider him much younger. It's really fascinating stuff. I wish I asked him more questions. It seems like primitive societies are more in tune with their fundamental existence than those of us in modern society, ironically enough.

Neither would I. But I think there's something deep to be learned from primitive societies. In modern societies, the constant stimulants and chasing of egoic pursuits are what fog the mind for humans. That's why most modernized people aren't spiritual or in-tune with consciousness and existence. It feeds into an illusion that only continues to get stronger - just look at the rising depression and suicide rates among developed nations. Only through great suffering do modernized people find bliss and happiness, something that is already acquired by the primitive peoples.

Conceptually, it is possible to break down "I am" into an illusion. "I am" is nothing more than language - language is a collection of symbols. Symbols are an illusion that the human mind holds meaning to when ultimately there is none. For example, if I showed you a picture of a swastika, your mind might immediately jump to the word "Nazi". However, the picture itself isn't Nazism - it's just markings. Show those markings to a tribe that has never heard of Nazis or swastikas, and they'll have no meaning associated with it. Or if you say "I am" to the same tribe, they don't speak the English language, so there's no meaning associated with the symbol of "I am" to that tribe. These symbols hold no truth, and where there is no truth, there is only illusion. Granted, the tribe might hold their own symbolic meaning of "I am", but that too is an illusion. If "I am" is an illusion, what does that ultimately make it? It's deception that is withholding the truth behind the "I am". If you associate your being with that illusion, you're disengaged from what you truly ultimately are - the perceiver of consciousness.

Shouldn't we all become heroin addicts? By all accounts, heroin is an explosion of pure pleasure. The amount of pleasure you could get in a month of using heroin might be a greater amount than anything else you could have been doing in a year. This is a radical claim, and no, I'm not saying to do heroin. This is just my argument against the point of life being hedonism. Anyone who believes it is should be honest and intellectually admit that drugs could yield a greater amount of pleasure overall in life, than living a drug free life, and that it's an avenue that should be explored. If not, then what's the arbitrary limit on pleasure one should pursue? Pleasure has no moral bounds.

I would say life is a nightmare for a lot of people, not just drug addicts. Depression and suicide rates have been on the rise for decades now, and will only continue to grow. Most of the people committing suicide in America? Middle class, white American males. Are these people who take their lives also not suffering, maybe more so than the addict? It got so bad they had to take their lives? Drugs, sex, money, partying, alcohol, TV, etc. don't cause suffering. They're merely distracting oneself from feeling the intense suffering they have by not being in the present moment and finding fulfillment by turning inward. But hedonists don't turn inward, do they? They seek pleasure through outside means.

@cetus56 Preaching to the choir on that one. I'm just talking in theoretical terms, if potential maximized pleasure could be measured. What if one hit of heroin provided more pleasure you could feel in a lifetime, with not too much more overall suffering compared to a sober life? Hedonists would say the purpose of life is pleasure, and seeking pleasure. That's the definition of a drug addict to me. I disagree with the notion seeking pleasure is an intrinsic good, which is the argument of this topic on a what-if basis.

Thank you..yes, this is exactly my point. Let's put away all labels and ideas about different qualities of pleasure, and just look at the pleasure itself. Assume the chemical reaction is measurable in the brain, and heroin leads to the greatest chemical output. If one's hedonistic purpose is to maximize pleasure in life, then yes, heroin is the end goal. If one considers himself hedonistic, and yet is still against the idea of drug use for maximizing pleasure even if it yields the greatest chemical output for pleasure overall, isn't that contradictory? Why the arbitrary restriction on achieving pleasure?

@MIA.RIVEL I personally would never do drugs, I know the dangers of hedonism, but that's beside the point. The point of this topic is this: if the purpose of life is pleasure, and if drugs maximize pleasure in ways that normal life never could, then a hedonistic person should be honest and admit drugs are the way to go. Placing arbitrary restrictions on sustainability or health are just that: arbitrary restrictions. That's it. I'm not pushing for or against anything here, I personally have never taken any hard drugs and don't ever care to.

@Wormon Blatburm Sustainability is an arbitrary restriction you're putting on maximizing pleasure. Nothing in life is sustainable, not even your consciousness.

@Wormon Blatburm I know... But to hedonists, the purpose of life is pleasure. If pleasure could be measured, what if a few uses of heroin provides the most amount of measured pleasure you could achieve in your lifetime? Wouldn't that, theoretically, be the most desired pursuit for a hedonist? If not, then hedonists aren't living by their own principle. My coworker told me a story about how he had a jury case about a well off man. He was in his 40s, an ex college track star, had a wife and kids, and had a business. A friend introduced him to crack. He wound up selling his business and everything he owned to support his crack addiction. His wife left him, and he wound up working a meager job and spent all his income on crack. He ended up robbing an old woman while high, and he accidentally killed her in the process (she fell and hit her head) and he got charged with manslaughter. This got me thinking. Was he not living his purpose, as a hedonist?

@cetus56 What do you mean?

I went from meditating 30 minutes/an hour daily to now barely 10 minutes, if that. I've been back in reactionary mode. I'm losing momentum on spiritual gains. I'm starting to judge others again, and let my emotions control me. To top it off, work is picking up, I'm starting college classes again, and family demands are higher than ever. I just want some fucking peace and alone time, but it's just one action after another. I'm slipping back into submission of my mind, where I've been for all my life, and I don't know what to do. I just want it to stop. I want to enjoy the present moment again, and tune all of this mundane shit out. Any advice?

Thanks for the wonderful insights, guys. I feel like I'm getting back on course, especially today. I think I realized the root of the problem. The things I held as valuable before: relationships, material things, looks, education, work, etc.. Really don't hold any value. And yet I'm still swamped in, and cling to these things, and I know internally it's fruitless. I'm not depressed, or sad, or angry.. Just kind of empty and I feel distracted. Par for the course though.. The present moment is the only thing that satisfies me.

@Salaam I think that's a perfectly valid interpretation if it works for you. I just also think there's room for ego to rear its head if we are not conscious of why we are doing something. For example, in the purposes of this topic, let's say I love my children more than other children because they're an extension of me. By claiming this, my ego is building a sense of identity and self, which leads to suffering if threatened. Yes, relationships and connections between people are a natural instinct, because it ensures our survival. But one relationship isn't inherently more valuable than another. My kids, my genetics, aren't inheritably more valuable than other kids. Our minds place value on things, when there ultimately is no value. The reality is that we are all going to die, everything is going to die, even the world we live on. For our mind to still believe that one relationship holds any type of value, despite this fact, is an illusion. I'm not saying intimacy is wrong, but the problem that causes most suffering in relationships is that most people go into them with the idea of the other person 'fulfilling' them. That never happens, because the other person is going to have their own agenda, and never be able to 100% satisfy the needs and expectations of the person wanting fulfillment. If both partners are fulfilled without each other, and can be happy without each other and not need the other person for happiness and joy, then that is true intimate love. Anything else is egotistical and comes from the place of "Well, you should be acting this way for my benefit!"

@carlo The "quickest" way would probably be to cut off all contact from stimulants and distractions, and go live in a forest somewhere, dedicating your whole time to self-inquiry and meditation. That's an extremely mentally tough route to take however, but usually the hardest mental training you can endure is what's going to yield you the highest gains.

There is nothing wrong about science. Science is a systematic measurement of 'how' reality operates, broken down into nuances that humans can intellectually understand. Through understanding of these nuances, we've been able to achieve remarkable things as a species by working in the fields of reality. Science is perpetually evolving in this day and age, thanks to advanced technology, so what we may hold as an accurate model of a phenomenon in reality today might change tomorrow. Science does NOT explain the 'why' about reality: why we exist, why reality exists, why we evolved into how we are today, why the universe unfolded like it did. That's why philosophy and spirituality are popular among humanity, because we're capable of grasping the seemingly bizarre and miraculous nature of existence itself.

@FeelFree I mean, you can think of it any way you like. To me, it feels like we're in a simulation. One where it feels like we're in control and that we're special, but we're really not. A sick (but genius) move on the programmer's part.

The voice stems from thought. The voice is present because you understand a language, which is capable of verbalizing your inner feelings and thoughts to a form that seems tangible. The dangerous thing about the voice is that it doesn't always correctly interpret stimulation and how you're feeling, and yet you feel so connected to the voice, it feels like you, and that it's "right". If you lived as an ancient human, before language was invented, you would have no voice in your head materializing your thoughts. Don't think too much about it.

It's cool, brother. I don't have anything against relationships one way or another. Your values are equally as valid as mine. If we were to observe the universe scientifically, every single sub-atomic particle has an energetic force (what we call gravity) on every single other sub-atomic particle. That means your fingernail has a pull on billions of stars, in billions of galaxies. It's a stunning realization that everyone and everything in this universe are connected, as if we're part of one organic being. The elements that make up you and me were created from a supernova - a giant stat's explosion. Our lineage traces back to a giant star, and if we want to go back farther, just space and gas. These are merely ideas and concepts that hold no truth or value, but I find the idea of oneness as beautiful. Loving you just as I would myself feels peaceful.

True love is realizing that everyone and everything is equal, for we are all the same reality. The love you have for your spouse, your children, and your family is an egotistical love, because you associate these people with your sense of self. Sense of self is a separation from the reality of existence. My personal experiences with my ego and its love for material forms in this world are irrelevant, and your questioning of it shows your defense of your ideologies. I never said you can't 'truly' love an intimate spouse, my friend. But recognize that they too are a changing , impermanent form, just like everything else in existence. Holding them in another type of esteem is a delusion of the mind.

Real love is existence. It's the universe, reality, God, whatever you want to call it. It's appreciation of our existence, and accepting our oneness with reality. This is something the ego can never be able to grasp. All other forms of 'love' come from the ego and its sense of lack. It's not real love.

@30secs The more you identify yourself as in a relationship with a person like this, the more it's going to limit your self-actualizing. Do what you want, but just be mindful and recognize the effects it will have on your own consciousness. Most people will never care to recognize the delusions of the ego.

Don't worry too much why it's there. Like every other addiction, or anything you identify 'yourself' as, it's a creation of the ego to separate itself from oneness with reality. Yet another illusion created in your mind. Accept it, let it pass, and it will move on.

Have you had any more 'hair of the ox's tail' experiences since your initial one? Did that experience trip up your ego in any way since then? Meaning, since you've got a taste, have you yearned for more of it, which has only held you back in any way? Thanks for sharing your insights.