Salvijus

I sort of agree. In my understanding the desire shifts from serving the ego to serving the whole. And serving THE Whole is pure love. And the more you serve the whole the more love you feel. So every action that eminates out of you becomes just pure expression of love at that point that is not ego centric anymore. Actions are no longer in service to the "little me" would be another way of saying it.

All insecurities aswell? Impatience?

@Osaid I grant you that there are some exceptions when the body's intelligence recognizes danger and gives you a signal to avoid something which is different than ego generated misery. But leaving that aside. To keep things simple. Leaving the special cases rare cases aside. Simply living life. If there's stress, anxiety, attachment, lememting, maybe lust can be included, impatience etc (everything that is not peace and love basically) . Simple miseries like that. The first point I would try to make is that all of these are a product of desire to serve to ego. And by simple logic enlightenment (realization that ego doesn't exist) would mean the end of that.

Damn we were so close to finishing this. Here are my closing thoughts and I'm leaving this. 1. Desire to serve the ego, the little self rather than The Whole is what causes all the misery. 2. Realization that ego and separation is an illusion removes all desire to serve the ego (you admitted this to be true @Osaid ) 3. By simple logic it follows: enlightenment (experiencial knowledge that ego doesn't exist) = all removal of misery and is replaced by perfect love and peace that never fades. 4. If the third point doesn't seem to be the case in one's experience, if there is even a speck of misery in one's mind being generated. It can only mean the belief in ego and desire to serve the ego is still active and thus that one has not fully realized the unreality of the ego yet. Aka, not enlightened. .... So. That's where I was trying get to. I hope this will sound logical and perfectly reasonable for you. ciao

So when the desire to serve the ego is gone. Can there be any cause for misery to manifest? In other words. Without the desire to protect the ego (fear and aversion like you say) can there be experience of contraction, fear, doubt, anger, greed, etc. etc. etc.

Hmmm I quite like that response. Let me see if we are on the same page here. So desires are there to serve some purpose. In ordinary person who is not enlightened desires are there to serve the belief in ego (which doesn't exist) I think this part I quoted and understood you right. Now... The next thing I want to rise. The implications: If one realizes that ego doesn't exist experiencially. Would there still be desire to serve the ego? Or would the fear to protect the ego be gone and there would be just open vast all inclusive state of awareness. (Sometimes also called love.) and therefor there would be no room for misery to get generated.

Hmmm, I wonder if this really addresses the main issue. That all misery (and that includes restlessness, fear, anger, irritation, judgement, envy, depression, greed, anxiety, lementing etc.) is generated by the ego. And i personaly wonder does that challenge your understanding of enlightenment or do you see it the same way.

In short, every thought, action, emotion has a cause for it. And if there is misery of any kind. Scrutinize what is the cause of it and you will find that the cause of it is the false identity and false perception of separation, ignorance. With that understanding you can gauge if your perception of truth is complete or not.

This is not true. Actions (and that include emotions, thoughts, feelings) are not random All actions are driven by the impulse. There are two types of impulses: Impulse to serve The Whole (love/God's will) Impulse to serve the little me (fear/egoic will) The original impulse in all of creation is love. Love sees all things as one-self and therefore always serves The Whole. When human mind loses the awareness of oneness, the false perception of separation, the "little me" and fear of death are born. And with it the pure impulse to serve The Whole gets corrupted by the ego to serve only the "little me". If the implications of the above are understood the conclusion thus follows: If there is any trace of ego (self-centered rather that TheWhole-centered) driven/produced/manifested symptoms, thoughts, emotions, bahavior like fear, anger, judgement, envy, impatience, greed, worry, anxiety, depression etc. That means it was not generated by love/truth impulse, it was generated by ego driven energy. And that means that the mind is still under the false perception of separation (which is the source of all misery) and the awareness of truth/oneness is not complete. What could be called in all fairness, "not a liberated mind/not enlightened"

Better yet. 1. Contemplate how fear arises. What causes it to arise. 2. And contemplate if fear can exist if there is no sense of I. 3. And would there be any desire for self protection or self-preservation, self-grasping if there was no sense of I at all. Therein lies all the answers as to why "I doesn't exist" or "ego doesn't exist" is incorrect.

Are you one of those who think "I" doesn't exist? Neo advaita teachings etc. This whole teaching that "I" doesn't exist is actually false I would say. If you scrutinize this subject more carefully you would see: ego, I, self-grasping, fear are all synonymous. You can't have fear without the "I" being there first to feel threatened. Hence, if there's even a speck of fear in your reality/mind/experience. Then there is still belief and investment in this "I". The source of all sense of insecurity, fear and lack. And so... If you follow the implications of the black sentence. You will see, to say "I doesn't exist" is incorrect.

@bebotalk you could've just sayed "no I prefer conflict, anger, judgement, bickering rather than friendship, goodwill, open light discussion without any name calling" It's okay. I honor your choice. I hope it brings you happyness:) Was nice talking to you Chau chau 👋✌️

A single chance to redeem yourself is worth more than ten thousand punishments. And who would perceive the need for punishment when effort is being made to stop conflict and bring about coherence? That is poor judgement imo. And probably incorrect perception of the situation to begin with. This comment also has a strong "let the one without ego cast the first stone" vibe to me.

@bebotalk lets have some truce. This conflict is not healthy for both of us. And it will never end in the manner that we talk to each other. Unless you prefer to be continuesly boiling with the fire of internal conflict and frustration and judgement. Then good luck with that to you. It's an offer for peace. Take it or leave it. Either way I'm out of this. Tcare

Awww. I thought we had a special bond . Oh well, it's good that you don't like me. It will bring us closer. hehe

"When two enlightened beings meet, there's nothing to do but smile"

Here's some thoughts to ponder that may or may not resonate with you. 1. You have some attachment to certain goals and you believe it will bring you happyness. 2. Once you feel like you failed to meet the expectations/requirements to achieve that fantasy desire that you believe will bring you great happyness. You become sad. 3. After sad follows frustration. 4. Now you want to blame someone or something for that feeling "why the world is so cruel" kind of thing. 5. You find nothing to blame so you put the hate/blame on yourself. (other people put blame on the world, bad childhood, parents, themselves, and if nothing works, on God itself) How to come out of it? At the stage when the feeling of "I failed" comes. Or the feeling of "I haven't failed yet but it looks like I'm about to fail and so I'm getting sad and then frustration follows". This is where you can change things. There is a lot of fear surrounding the attachment. Belief that without the achievement of the desired goals your ticket to happyness is gone. Your hope for happyness is crushed. And feelings of bewilderment are right behind the corner waiting for you to fall into a despair. But in truth you have a choice at the moment you feel that fear rising. You can simply chose to allow and let the egoic fantasies crumble. It can feel psychologically painful. Yet on the other side there is the Sun. The Rays of freedom. And a treasure of happyness that never fades and needs no effort to achieve it. Needs no conditions to be there. Happyness that you need not earn it or be worthy of. It's simply there for you all the time forever. Then it's the end to seeking, attachment, fear of loss, and misery. Amen

I love you too

Dopé

I emphasize with your frustration. It's not easy to talk to me but you're doing well imo 🙏

Your behavior is a reflection of your belief system Every action is a statement if you believe in seperation or in all pervasive union. One who knows the truth, the pervasive union in all things, acts accordingly in a way that serves The Whole system and not his little identity. If the implications of the above are undetstood. Evil(selfish) behavior and enlightenment are impossible to combine.

All evil is driven by fear. Not by love Your nature is love. You being but love, can you be evil? Only if you forget yourself

What about just be aware. Not of this or that. Just simply be aware intensely. It's enough.

Human games > psychedelic experience. It is only spiritual growth that is existencially valuable. Unless a psychedelic experience serves that purpose it is a useless thing. And if psychedelics are being used for spiritual growth and seeking truth, then it gets included into the "human games" category. Check mate

"What is?"