Cred

When I say "you might have to cut people out of your life to find peace" I mean cut them out in a detached way. People with ND make decisions that feel right to them that they are insecure about and that is why they tell themselves stories like "This person is evil this is why I can't see them again" or "this job is meaningless that's why I have to quit and follow my passion". Idealism does not help you at all to make decisions. Again, the only one action that idealism points to is to join a monastery or go into a cave. Self acceptance is both tied to your level of awakening and to your life purpose and how you act in the world. If you don't learn about ND, your life purpose and your actions in your life will be misguided. I want to make a separate post about my critique of idealism (every sense of the word). The idealism deception runs very deep in Leo and this community. My head is buzzing though. I have to take a break.

It is important to note that when I use the phrase "neurodivergent" for most of y'all this is basically a black box with some limited and skewed prejudices attached because you have not learned enough about it and not experienced it enough. The words above are the words of someone who can see inside the box. Notice that this is exactly like talking to an atheist and using the word "god".

If you really think you can detach from conventional thinking by watching Leo Gura you are mistaken. For example "follow your passion is bad advice" is the premise of the book so good they can't ignore you by Cal Newport which is on Leos book list I believe. The anti ND propaganda runs very deep and again, you can only detach by going into a cave forever or learning about ND

@Lyubov Again, this is idealism. Can you look me in the eyes and tell me with a straight face that a full-time Reddit mod is as valuable as a neurosurgeon? Do you really think you can in your lifetime reach this level of awakening while also surviving?

@Hojo @theleelajoker The goal I'm trying to help achieve is self acceptance. Can you awake without self acceptance? Maybe. Maybe just briefly. Can you achieve self acceptance through purely idealistic means? Maybe. Maybe just briefly. At the end you can always flee into the Himalayas to some guru in a cave. Will this solve all your problems? Maybe. Is it that what you want? Living in denial about being ND is unnecessarily painful unless you live in a cave by yourself. The process of learning you're ND is also painful. THIS pain is not optional. In strict idealistic theory, you can achieve everything through contemplation. Will you though? Is this really realistic? Do you have the material conditions to be able to pull this off?

The fourth option is to learn about ND and be unapologetically yourself. If you know exactly why you get to be yourself and why you don't have any other options, you can live in peace. Living in peace as an ND can mean to cut a lot of neurotypical people out of your life. If you have a conventional framework of morality, a lot of these measures will not be possible without internal friction.

If you are not deeply educated on ND your view of what constitutes a good life is completely misguided. Here are some Examples of conventional truths that don't apply to ND people. If you work more than 40 hours a week you are hard-working and if you work less then you're lazy Everyone has the choice whether to follow their passion or focus on (financial) security Follow your passion is bad advice If you live a life as a dog walker and furry porn fan fiction writer, then you are a looser Why would you read obscure tibetan spiritual scriptures if you could instead come with to the club and dance to Pitbull you weirdo

Again I agree with everything you said. However, you were criticizing the neurotypical perspective I gave as if it was my perspective. It is not. You are 100% correct with this statement. My point, and again, this is nuanced, is that there is a difference in the state of consciousness between saying "there isn't a problem" and "THERE ISN'T A PROBLEM". You will see psychologists say things like "everyone is a little bit narcissistic" or "a little bit of narcissism is healthy" and I agree with these statements. I would not make this point if this wasn't the super-duper–anti-self–deception–truth community. Again my point is that from the perspective of an ND who is not educated on ND which means they have a conventional understanding on human value, there are only these Options: Self loathe and suicidality, self-pity and depression or delusion and functionality. Out of these, the third one is most beneficial for happiness and survival. My claim is that when people who are unaware that they are ND say "I'm good enough" they don't actually believe what they say bc they don't have enough evidence. This leads to friction, frustration and delusion. Phrased differently, if you try to practice self acceptance and don't learn precisely why the conventional definition of a purposeful life is limited, you will always have a voice in the back of your head telling you "what if they are right?"

@Joshe @LordFall <3 @Hojo I agree with most of what you said. It seems like you have misunderstood me. We are 95% on the same page. My point is very nuanced. I'm pondering for an answer.

CONTEXT: The "you" in the original Post is a mixture of @Hojo, Leo and of course, the reader. It is a reply that I figured, would be suitable to be its own thread. Hojo replied: "@Cred Its not narcissist its finally sticking up for yourself. The neurotypical bully the neurodivergent their entire lives. Isnt it narcissist to tell a neurodivergent they are messed up in some way? Science is bullying an untypical brain structure. Science is the narcissist. There isnt a problem with a neurodivergent, its who they are the way God intended. 'All the self acceptance mediation shadow work call it what you want is not reaching the root of the problem, which is that people see you as less valuable.' This quote is narcissist. There isnt a problem. The problem is you seeing others that are different as a negative. Maybe you have the problem. God structures your brain. A neurotypical could never understand this." and then "@Cred Why do neurodivergent people need coping mechanism? Because they are being bullied, relentlessly for being themselves." Hojo, I hope you are okay with this approach. I want everything relevant to be in one place.

@Human Mint, @Basman I want to take a step back and try to describe what I've done so far. I've very briefly talked about different forms of ND and made radical claims and estimates about the prevalence of ND in this community, together with minimal substantiation. I did this intentionally in hopes to hook people, get them to ask questions, and I expected to be met with skepticism. This is a totally reasonable reaction. I don't want to sound defensive, I definitely might have gone overboard at some points, but right now I'm happy with this thread. I I am planning to create more posts on the subject and share resources in the future and suggest you guys to follow me if you are interested.

@Hojo Could you please copy and paste your replies into This would be neat. If you don't do this, I will copy and paste them myself with credit of course. I'm open to any criticism of my approach on posting on this forum.

Could you please go into more detail? I don't understand what you mean by this. My goal is to empower y'all to live an unapologetically unconventional life and break all the social rules. I'm sorry if that did not become clear.

@Hojo AHHHH you didn't reply under the dedicated thread! :cryingemoji:

I believe this reply deserves a separate thread. I hope I don't get flagged for repetitive posting. I think this is justified. If you want to reply to this response specifically, do it here:

My radical claim is that ND is as relevant to all of you as "being in a wheelchair" is to someone in a wheelchair. Think about how much effort someone in a wheelchair has to put into coping with being in a wheelchair. Coping with ND arguably takes more effort since one can't delude someone in a wheelchair into thinking that they are supposed to live a normal life.

@Hojo I agree with everything you just said but want to add some nuance. Being ND causes the person to develop insecurities because they don't fall into the socially accepted way, a valuable person is defined. The worst way (in terms of survival) to cope with low self-esteem is with self loathing, which leads to suicidality. A step-up, but still suboptimal, is self-pity which leads to depression. One way to function with low self-esteem is with denial. If you ignore the evidence of your low self-worth and instead put yourself on a pedestal and put everyone else down, you will deceive yourself out of your depression. One completely random and unrelated-to–anything–at-all-way this could be done is by declaring stuff like: "I am god, I have seen truth everyone else is sheep". This is the narcissistic way of dealing with low self-esteem. I don't necessarily factually disagree when people here say stuff like "I am the only one who cares about truth everyone is below me". I'm rather asking why it is important to you to see yourself as above everyone else. I want to emphasize this point again: All the self acceptance mediation shadow work call it what you want is not reaching the root of the problem, which is that people see you as less valuable. Phrases like: "They are not productive, they are on forums all day" is language, discriminative of ND people and comes from a framework of wage labor (communism has once again entered the chat). If you want to function without a narcissistic way of coping, you will need to learn precisely in what way society is wrong. And this only works by learning about ND (also anti-capitalist theory. Communism Post is coming soon)

I agree and disagree. You are correct that in the past, modern medical science has viewed people who are different as people who need to be fixed (see Foucault). I completely agree that the school system is designed for neurotypical people and not suitable for ND people. ND is a new term and is not scientific. It was coined by the community. It does not have the same baggage/implications as outdated terms like Asperger syndrome. I also see the negative way some ND are phrased as critical. ADHD has the term disorder in it which can be seen as problematic. For example, you could use "passion oriented person". It is absolutely true that our system is the disorder and not the individuals. The trend is that these negative terms are "reclaimed" by the ND community, similar to the n-word was reclaimed by the black community and the word queer was reclaimed by the queer community. This community is part of the ND community and no one seems to be aware of that. Sometimes I hear people who criticize the ND movement say something like "ADHD is bs. Kids should not be forced to sit still in school!". This is cope imo. When I hear this, I think of the closeted gay pastor ranting about homosexuality. School is engineered for neurotypical people and those get through school just fine. If you are smart but struggle in school regardless, you are likely ND. I'm not advocating y'all getting medical treatment. It's the system that needs treatment (communism has entered the chat). However it is crucial for y'all to understand just in what way you're different from the norm. You can do ten years of all the self acceptance meditations in the world and it is not going to help you as much as getting a deep understanding of ND.

This is the definition of neurodivergent. Gender is absolutely ND related. Gender is a social truth. People with autistic traits are insensitive to social truths. The link between struggling with gender identity and autism is well researched. When you research it, you will find a lot of answers about peculiarities of your life. It is very well researched. As always, different sources vary in depth of knowledge about the subject. I recommend the YouTube channel HealthyGamerGG above all. ND is as deep and complex as life is. A ND person acts and feels at least slightly differently in most possible scenarios of life than is socially expected. This is a lot of scenarios. Learning about ND is a lifelong process and has to be done in a contemplative manner. Spending one evening filling online questionnaires is not going to help you much.

It seems like the source of your insight is of contemplative nature. You compare a severely autistic person (SAP) with an infant since their behavior is similar. This is a good starting point. Let's contrast a SAP with an infant. What do you think of the following statement: An infant does not have a developed sense of self since it did not have the time to develop it. A SAP does not have a developed sense of self since their whole life has been a struggle with an influx of unbearable sensations which inhibits their ability to develop a sense of self. This is why both individuals don't process sensations in relation to their selves. My claim therefore is, that autistic people can develop a sense of self just fine as long as the environment is appropriate.

Your perspective on the role of the self in people with autism is interesting. Got any sources?

@Infinite Tsukuyomi <3

@Hojo It is important to note that this the kid in the video is not the kind of person I'm talking about. If this guy is 100 on the spectrum, I'd say the average actualized.org fan is a 10-20. This is still significant and often overlooked, since people who only have mild autistic traits can learn to mask and to cope, which can be a source of self-deception if not done in an aware way. In some way, people with mild autistic traits are at a higher risk since it is not obvious to others and themselves that they are struggling, chronically stressed and need help/be treated with different (social) standards than neurotypical people. It is obvious that the mother is not capable to understand the boy or get his needs met. I am not familiar enough with severe forms of autism to be able to conclude that this person could have a trouble free life in a more healthy environment.

Autism can impede the skill of independence. If that's one of your core values, and you have autism, you have a problem.

Hi, I am interested. I also have a friend who is also a fan. We live in Bonn and would easily be able to travel to Cologne.