What Am I

@Jodistrict I think that'd say more about the container the facilitators in Mexico are choosing to use to understand the experience than what it really is. And also, the idea that they've never heard of enlightenment; I guess maybe that'd be due a mystical tradition not being prevalent in Mexico? The perennial philosophy isn't just some toy for modern Westerners to play with and think about, it's a comprehension of the fact of spirituality that's passed like a line through all of history and found around the world. It includes within it the knowledge that humans can transform and pass recognizable signposts along the way. There's not a doubt in my mind that the 5meo experience is closely related to typical and historical mystical revelation via sober means. I'd practically bet my life on it. The facilitators certainly aren't wrong about it being a force for powerful healing, but there's just more to the story as well. Sure, fair enough, this is a great way to be, and it keeps you open and free to not become bound by restrictive concepts. I'm just making this post to express how strongly I feel that the endogenous neurochemical 5meo is 100% related to states of meditation as well as this thing we call enlightenment. Just my opinion though.

I'm not convinced that someone's level of logical intelligence and open-mindedness has a strong 1:1 relationship with their spiritual perception. I kind of view them as separate attributes, with spirituality perhaps being more similar to kinesthetic and intuitive skills, such as sports. An athlete wouldn't be expected to know a great deal more simply because of their accomplishments on the field. Obviously though, it can be helpful to be able to keep all possibilities available in your mind, because human life is pretty bizarre as it is with what we've already realized exists. Who knows how much more bizarre it can get. I should add on that at extreme levels of spiritual awareness, I believe the relationship between logic and spirituality does fuse, and then you do know practically everything in a crazy transcendent manner. This one's just a theory based on my own experiences and many years of researching and being aware of spirituality.

All the way to a virtually supernatural degree imo. A person utilizing their own biology could meditate to the point of full ego death, where individuality is dissolved and they return to the ever-present source of energy and all things which exists before the potential of form is even manifested. The "flavor" of this realization permeates backwards into their manifest lives and creates an empowered non-dual perception in everyday reality. I think even your standard gurus like the ones you listed can get to this point, and some very likely have. But if we look past the common gurus who are highly visible and public, I believe there's those who have gone even further into skills and abilities that'd be shocking, even to someone pretty well versed in spirituality.

An argument can be made that 5meo is capable of pushing someone past what they could ever reach naturally, at least in terms of singular ultra-deep states. I guess it'd be somewhat analogous to a weight lifter using steroids, where their natural hormonal limit is surpassed and they can become much larger and stronger than was previously possible. Personally though, I wouldn't doubt that the natural limit is still profound beyond comprehension, and perhaps all that's needed for an enlightened human life.

Obviously you're correct that brain chemistry plays a significant role in spiritual transformation, even if the origins of spirituality extend beyond biology. It's Ken Wilber's notion of "transcend and include". I've been seeing a ton of people who have formed a type of disconnect between their spiritual life and gross reality. They seem to think about it as if the two were entirely independent of one another. I'm not familiar enough with Ralston to know if that's what he's actually doing here, it's just something I've noticed that kind of maps on to this particular video.

I'm interested in it as well. It sounds like an energetic-bodywork practitioner's dream, with a strong inclination towards ecstatic bliss states. I've heard the precursors were banned in China though, so it's supposedly not easy to find anymore. Would be a shame if that's true.

It's not so simple as to say the use of 5meo guarantees enlightenment, because that's obviously not the case if you look at the multitudes who've used it. It'd be more accurate to say that using 5meo replicates very significant states of meditation, even leading up to nirvikalpa samadhi. We could switch up the framing and ask if the ability to consistently reach nirvikalpa samadhi in meditation increases the likelihood of attaining enlightenment. The built-in ego purification mechanism activated by a state of that magnitude can most certainly improve the odds and the ease by which enlightenment can be attained. I've heard of enlightenment being compared to an accident. It's said that you can't deliberately achieve it, but by way of practices like meditation and 5meo, you can make yourself more accident-prone. So it's a loose 1:1 connection, though it perhaps couldn't be said that the practices are directly causal. In that very specific sense, I guess Peter Ralston would be correct. Though I'm not sure he's looking at it with that kind of nuance. As a disclaimer, I'm definitely not enlightened. But I believe I've witnessed clear signs of improved accident-proneness after heavy intentional use of 5meo and meditation, so I feel somewhat confident in my claims.

@Thought Art Right on, agreed on all counts. If beliefs can't be shared, expressed, and justified to a fellow member of a spiritual forum, they're certainly not ready for prime time lol.

@aurum I'm not great at these back-and-forth kind of debates, and it's not usually in my personality to even engage in them, but it is interesting having the opportunity to consider my beliefs and the reasons I have them. Outside the forums in real life, I like to think I've been careful enough to keep all this to myself, since I realize how it'd be received by practically all others. On here where nobody knows me, I can go apeshit and say what I really think.

Sounds fair, we all create rules to live by based on what we know and have experienced. I imagine you've seen a lot of nonsense from "spiritual" sources that have made you decide to create a split between your understandings of the natural world and your philosophical understandings of God. But it also sounds like you're leaving a crack open for it to shift if proven otherwise, so that seems reasonable enough. I wonder who "we" is in this statement, and I wonder what "known" means in this context. It's certainly not the majority who are aware of the theory, and it's probably only the tiniest fraction of the populace who've actually had the experience. Taking yourself as an example, you're someone who could be considered to have extreme spiritual beliefs, frequently posting on a forum focused on spirituality, and you've suggested you have never experienced anything of the type, thereby not even being sure it really exists. I think it'd be more fair to say we as a whole have not known about kundalini, vitalism, and Qi. I think my earlier metaphorical use of the discovery of a new species may be apt. Are you aware that gorillas were discovered and catalogued in 1847? It's strange that a huge ape like that could remain unknown for so long, but it is what happened. Many more species of animal were discovered much more recently than that. Obviously this isn't proof that we'll now discover "fill in the blank", but it is an interesting example how our understandings continue to evolve in surprising ways. In my worldview, practically all true phenomena can be scientifically validated, even if it requires advancements in the tools used to measure them as well as our knowledge of where to look. If I thought otherwise, I'm not sure I could really say I'm dealing with something that's real. For me, the second one has to be the answer. Otherwise, I'm having delusional experiences of powerful electrical sensations blasting up my spine into my brain and forcing me into a state of transcendent concentration. I had to make a choice between believing that I'm psychotic or that science hasn't caught up, and I didn't feel like pretending I'm psychotic. But I'm not in some kind of war with scientists either, where I belittle them in my mind for being unaware. And science has been a blessing beyond comprehension for humanity. It's just that, who could easily find something when you don't know where to look, or that you should even be looking at all? I actually agree pretty strongly here that the model we're using is inferior and based on ancient peoples' thoughts and opinions. We need a modern and updated model to understand what's really going on. And we don't even need to keep using this silly sanskrit name of kundalini! But until something new comes about, this is what we have. Are we all one in your view? If so, perhaps it wouldn't be too wacky to assume an accurate scientific theory could be constructed around that reality. I do agree though that hippies and goofballs shouldn't be the ones to create that theory, or else it'll be as logically weak as the minds that created it. At this point, I actually feel compelled to challenge your perspective. I realized we haven't gone over it in detail, and I don't know why you believe as you do. How is it that you came to the unenviable position of a self-admitted unfalsifiable view about reality where God is concerned? For someone as logical as yourself, I'm very surprised you believe in spirituality at all. Care to explain what led you here?

I should add on that your experience may vary. I've read many reports that are essentially identical to mine, but I've also seen quite a few that contain key differences.

In a sense perhaps. In my case, it poked holes in my ego that allow intermittent flashes and revelations of being and oneness to shine through, even when I've been sober for multiple months straight. It may be that the purification it causes from numerous intense uses is permanent. As far as it being disturbing and scary to the ego in the midst of a strong 5meo trip, I can't deny the mind-bending experience of awakening to the realization that you're the only thing in existence as you approach higher doses. It activates as like a background state of intuitive knowing, so it's not the kind of thing you can just block out or ignore. When you're in the middle of a breakthrough, you're being held by bliss and jubilation, so there's no room for fear, or really anything else at all except sat-chit-ananda. It's during the time right before you enter the door and the time when you return that things can get hairy. Though once the trip wears off, you'll likely be in a much better place mentally to deal with what you experienced. Despite its profundity, you'd probably just go about your day with no lasting ill effects. I think I've mentioned it in a few other threads, but I believe the best remedy for the shocking nature of 5meo trips is a consistent sober meditation/mindfulness practice. Doing so in earnest will point you in the right direction when it comes time to transcend on an extreme level. The part of you that would normally resist the trip will be diminished.

Nice, it does appear that once you've had the experience, it's as if the illusion of separation between yourself and it (and everything else) becomes weakened a significant amount, and you're able to sense its attributes and presence even when not fully engulfed. That state appears to act as a purification mechanism of some type that brings the individual into its proper alignment and understanding with the true nature of reality. It's the reason I prize 5meo so much.

lol perhaps not compared to what I'm describing. It sounds fun though.

For sure, LSD is very complex in its action. I can see why people enjoy it. It seems like it's able to open all kinds of doors in addition to the white light one I mentioned.

LSD is actually one of the very few psychedelics that can somewhat reliably put you into a similar non-dual white light samadhi state as 5meo. I'm pretty sure that's why high-dose users of LSD can get flashbacks, which I believe is the same phenomenon as 5meo reactivations. Coincidentally, I believe they're both just kundalini syndrome, which you can get with skillful meditation alone, and no psychedelic use at all. I believe LSD also strongly acts on 5HT1A. There's probably something significant about those receptors where higher states are concerned.

If you can get your hands on some 5meo, and you have an interest in using a kind of cheat code to experience some of the most prized higher states of meditation, then it'd be really hard to argue its value. 5meo is on a whole other level from shrooms, and especially from MDMA. It's much more consistent in its revealing of certain aspects. Almost all other psychedelics can be all over the place in terms of what they show you, but 5meo is like meditation personified. But if you're just at a point in your life where you want to pursue spirituality while sober, that may be the ideal we should all eventually strive for, so that's awesome.

Fair enough, my mistake. Perhaps I viewed your words with unintended harshness, and it can be easy to misinterpret text. A good lesson for myself in not jumping the gun with reactivity. The forcefulness of my beliefs are centered heavily around my extraordinary subjective experiences, which I'm guessing yours must be as well. The sensation of oneness and God-like characteristics that emerge as you get closer to the causal state also contains within it a self-authenticating feature, where the subject is convinced in an undeniable way by a "more real than real" intuition of this being the truth of existence. It's a very palpable thing that needs to be experienced to be understood. So that explains my beliefs in the causal (Consciousness with a capital C), but the subtle is extraordinary as well, and a profoundly important piece of experienceable spirituality. I'd have to imagine that if you'd had any of the subtle experiences we've been discussing, you'd put them into the same camp of belief that you're currently applying to yourself for God. The subtle has a similar (though lesser) quality as the causal of being able to easily convince. In regards to what we're labeling "science", I wonder if it's a difference in personal definition and understanding (with myself being the less educated one). You seem like you might actually have a background in science, and I do not. So you may be able to respect its rigors and boundaries better. When I talk about kundalini being something that I believe can be measured and one day included in a scientific understanding, I'm speaking about it like a person in a forest who has discovered a new and unchategorized snake. In my view at that moment, the snake is obviously tangible and real, but I suppose it technically wouldn't yet fall under the umbrella of being scientifically recognized. But would it be so crazy to make the assumption that this new type of snake is capable of being included in a scientific understanding? Now if we were to say it'd be foolish to simply look at this snake with our eyes and claim we understand the exact molecular composition of its venom, I can see where that'd be foolish and even harmful to the pursuit of scientific truth. I think it's this type of thing that you're recognizing in people who are into spirituality. And I'm sure I'm guilty of it to some degree as well.

Wow okay, you're less reasonable than I thought. Your inner curmudgeon has emerged. Then why the fuck do you believe in it? I'd say that's borderline delusional. I've had extraordinary experiences which have been consistently described as within human capacities, as I'm guessing you have as well. I believe mine have the potential to be validated through means of measurement and reproducibility, and it would appear you believe yours can't. By what basis do you think you're not delusional in your beliefs? Gripping on to smoke and fairy dust, with no intention or even hope towards validating it.

@aurum And just so I'm not an asshole and only responding to your questions with my own questions, the reason I'm aware of Qi existing in a literal sense is because I've experienced the phenomenon in enough detail to be convinced. There's many times I've felt Qi deliberately and in ever-growing clarity, but I'd say psychedelic-induced kundalini made it the most obvious that there's a huge piece missing from Western science's understanding of the human body. The experience is beyond extreme, and there's simply no denying it when it happens. Strangely enough though, despite kundalini being absent from practically everyone's understanding, its symbols remain in our culture, such as the caduceus used in medicine. There's a lot more that can be said, and I'm open to the conversation, but this is a very basic description of one of the things that makes me sure of its existence.

@aurum Thanks, I really appreciate you putting yourself out there and describing your beliefs. My own beliefs line up similarly. Turning your question to Thought Art back to you, how did you self-test the validity of your claims regarding Consciousness? I dare say they're quite a bit more extreme than the notion of a universal vital energy which hasn't yet been scientifically verified, but has been described since forever as the medium through which spiritual transformation actually occurs. Is it possible you're only identifying the gross and causal, and leaving out recognition of the subtle? Ken Wilber has a recorded talk where he describes this scenario in detail. I'd be interested to hear what you think. http://www.integrallivingroom.com/discussion-subtle-energy/ Ken starts talking around 15 minutes into the audio. I'm not trying to attack or "gotcha" you. I'm genuinely curious how someone who thinks in such a logical and grounded manner could even believe in spirituality when all evidence of its existence is so sparse and subjective. I'm guessing there must have been a leap of faith in your past to bridge a gap like that.

lol I think the NASA thing broke Thought Art. No worries man, we all make silly mistakes. It certainly doesn't invalidate thousands of years of the perennial philosophy in regards to spiritual energetic experience.

I promise I'll respond to all your questions, but could we maybe start here? When you say psychedelics have helped explain Consciousness and God, what exactly are you referring to? Are you thinking about it in mythological terms that don't have significant implications, or as a literal experience of the nonlocality/omnipresence/primacy of Consciousness? As in, evidence of something beyond what's currently grasped and integrated by science. I'm just trying to gauge what degree of extraordinary truths you believe in.

Oh wow, do you know any more details about this? Pretty major if true. Or perhaps they're now able to measure Qi's byproducts, such as heat. The actual electromagnetic force itself seems to be beyond typical measurement, either by way of frequency or whatever else.

@aurum gotcha, sounds like you're not uneducated where theory concerning Qi is concerned. Obviously you're not going to get a satisfying answer here, because our whole world would have already changed if Qi was understood on a publicly available scientific level. Practitioners are able to infer its existence by the clear and consistent sensations they experience in altered states. Some of these states produce undeniably supernatural effects when they occur, such as kundalini. Do you dabble with psychedelics or have a serious meditation practice? Have you had any interesting energetic experiences? I made some heavy claims in my first post in this thread, which I'm sure there's no way you'll accept at face value lol. Which is pretty reasonable, as I'm claiming quite a bit more than just the nature of Qi.