Ishanga

I would say all of this, the "figuring" part anyways comes from our addiction to our Intellect, which is a sort of calculating sort of intelligence, which is Survival based, its trying to help us live another day in a better way than yesterday, Better in this context is subjective in experience, the homeless person on the street has a different subjective experience of Better than the Millionaire in the high rise condo.. There is another form of Intelligence that we as Humans have access to, I like to say that Awareness is that Intelligence, it is not memory based, its what is going on now within Your Perception Based, as well it is sort of Based on how You are within Yourself, if Your Depressed within Yourself, then Your Perception of things will be based off of this, when Blissed Out this changes it too, so when one is in a high level of Awareness, they are accessing an Intelligence that is not logic or intellect based, this leads on to higher Potentials of Understanding and Perception and Knowing in Life..

In certain schools of yoga, they classify yogis into three categories. Mandha, Madhyama, and Uttama. Mandha - One has tasted what it means to be conscious but is not able to sustain the experience without reminders. Madhyama - One is experiencing the inner dimensions but unable to manage the outer reality of the world. Uttama - One is perfectly in tune with the inner and outer world.

Referring to an outside source means You don't know..which is okay, You and most all of Us do not know, this causes seeking to Know, which kills belief systems and conditioning that You already have and ignites Your Intelligence and other capabilities to seek to Know, its like turning on the lights in a dark room, most ppl are living in dark rooms spiritually and perception wise... but You have to find out, I have to find out for ourselves, to seek to know,,not using others and what they say, his truth is only a Story for everyone listening, it can only inspire...Inspire one to do what? Too seek that is all.. Your Statement "Enlightenment is only the Beginning" is coming from not knowing Enlightenment...

Thought does not create Desire, a Baby has no Thought, but it has Desire, Your Lungs have no Thought, but it has a Desire, same with all parts of a Human or any Life form, they all have a basic type of Desire running thru them, give me an example I will show You where the Desire is, its everywhere on most every level, other than the Absolute, which contains all Potential and Possibility, only via Desire does any of that Potential and Possibility come to Fruition, that is why we are here on some level of Existence to play with it in our Limited material Dual Way. It seems many Non Dualists, and such, Absolutist and Denialist I would label them, only looking at the most Subtle aspects of Life alone, ignoring the other parts, You will deny that You are doing this but all Your post are About This, so unless there is deception, then I would say this is not Perceiving or Understanding the WHOLE picture, which is what Enlightenment is About, Perceiving Reality as it is, from its Grossest to most Subtle realms, while here in our Embodied forms..

But there is a subtle difference, yes in basic terms they are the same, if Your only looking at basics, Your not being very nuanced, Your too basic in your Spiritual outlook I would say.,..

Why don't You feel Blessed to have Son, Wife and Mom? Why suffer that You have them here? Your suffering the future that does not exist, the What If, the imagination gone out of control, so that means Your entangled and attached, if you lose them its over for You, that is not the highest possibility for Us.. If one loses someone they should feel Blessed to have had them in their life for whatever amount of time, but very few ppl do this or or capable of it, because of entanglement and attachment.. The Enlightened One is beyond this, yes they will feel the emotional pain of losing a loved one, but it doesn't destroy them via a Suffering of sorts..

Now with this Your playing Intellectual Games of What If, why do You have to Surrender anything? You can Play the Game of it, enjoy it, Love the family and such, no problem with it, isn't that what we want for each of Us, but many ppl Suffer it too, they have the family and they still suffer the loss of the family when there is no loss in the first place, its imagination of what if's coming up, if this case that person is not Enlightened...

You only say that because Your too Touched by Life, as most of Us here are. Being Touched by Life is the same as saying One has Entanglements, Attachments, Ruled by Duality and Slaves to outside situations... Being Untouched by Life means You still have Feelings, You still have Love, Friends and Family that You care deeply about, Desires and Plans, Goals and all the rest, but it doesn't Rule You, You don't Suffer it, You still Feel Pain as an Enlightened Being, but You don't Suffer it, Suffering Comes from Ego mostly, bruised Ego and What about Me always is Involved with Suffering... Enlightenment is not the Beginning but its not the End, its just what is says it is, To Enlighten One's Perception and Awareness of Truth, that's all it is...via that you mostly feel Blissed Out, but even when Blissed Out, a Stubbed Toe still hurts!

Innate within Us while here in "Embodied" Form (we are Life/God/Absolute but in a limited form of Embodiment) is the Desiring Process, this Desiring process allows Us as Humans to be unique in this world of Life Forms we have here on Earth, no other Life form has a Desiring Process as Strong and Complex as we do.. This Desiring Process can play out in Billions of ways, most ppl keep it at the Level of Accumulating More and more Ppl, places and things, this is on the Level of Survival and Stimulating the 5 senses, but if You go further on this process it transcends the 5 sense Level and goes to Your Energies and beyond, where You know You are not the Body or Mind, but are here to Play a Games of Sorts, a Game of Duality, Knowing and Not Knowing, Gaining and Losing, and Experiencing, Dreaming, Imagining and Dealing with Time and Mortality, all of which does not happen in the Absolute Realm or view point, so one cannot bypass this Desiring Process, no matter what You do or think and believe or philosophize, Desiring is Happen.. So all gaining, Material or Otherwise is Spiritual in that it is Desire, whether You are buying a car or accumulating more Money, Power, Knowledge, Spiritual Sense and Knowing, is Desire playing its way out in limited forms, only when You are naturally Blissful does it sort of end, it completely ends when You are Disembodied and no longer Individual in any form or way, you merge back into the Absolute, like a drop of the Ocean going back into the Ocean..

Enlightenment is when You go Thru Life Untouched, by that it means You are totally Involved with Everything Around You, Family, Friends, Nature, the Planet and Universe, and even with Your Ego/Personality, but none of it Touches You, You can drop it in a second, and be fine with it, Emotions will rise, but what YOU are is not the Emotion or the Body or Mind, You "HAVE" Emotions, Body and Mind to use while here.. That is Enlightenment!!

The Models are just the Intellect Dissecting and trying to Understand it, labels, models, theories, philosophies, writings, blogs, posts on forums, mean nothing is Your inner Experience is low and full of suffering, anxiety, depression etc... I can't tell You how many times I've read somethings on this forum, and from the ppl that post them, thinking oh this person may be on too something, they seem like their on their way to some transformation and perception of higher possibilities, then they post how they are addicted to this that or the other thing, they need advice on nerves, anxiousness, social situations, things of this nature that someone with high levels of Awareness and Experience would never have, boggles my mind...

@Shodburrito Well Said.. People that say "I am the Only One that Exists" are only saying and experiencing it this way because they have Huge Ego, its very satisfying, and even a bit Fulfilling to experience Life this way, "Hey I'm the Only thing that exists, I am making all this Up and Its Fantastic, Horrible, Grand, Complex, bla bla bla", they get off on it, but its puts them further away from what the Truth Is, they just don't realize it...

Thanks! A useful Sadhana or Spiritual Practice is that throughout the Day, no matter what You are doing, working or relaxing, observe Your Mind and Ego, how it is always Judging and Making Conclusions, I do this all the time, I watch it label this or that person walking by, cursing the person cutting me off in traffic, little things like this that happen a thousand times a day, after awhile a space is created btwn You and this Ego/Mind complex and that is Empowering, its like turning down the volume on music or sound you don't want to hear anymore, it gives You a sense of Freedom from the Monkey Mind...

Physical Life for sure involves allot of Pain, Suffering is optional, as Suffering is mostly of the Mind, of Resistance and of Identification.. Pain of the Body for sure will happen, as I've gotten older, although I've never really had a major accident, because of my physical activities I have minor pain almost everyday, hip flexors get tight. and lower back issues, but I stretch everyday and do maintenance of it everyday and watch my activity closely, but there is pain at times, I've gotten use to it. We should use it as a Spiritual Practice, Spiritual meaning that aspect of You that is Non Physical in Nature, if You can have a Space btwn what is You and What is Not You, then the Pain will not cause Suffering, there is a difference btwn the Two...

Ok so Now we have You on Record saying "Yes the dream seems real but for a discussion like this, I was just pointing to the ultimate", for me this statement means there are levels, or dimensions to it, there is the "Ultimate" or "Absolute" or "God" then there is something else, many around here like to call it a "Dream or Imaginary", I don't think those words fit what is really going on, as in reality dreams seem pretty real and so is imagination, the brain does not know the difference btwn what is vividly imagined (Or dreamed up) and real, real and imaginary are very subjective, but the point I am trying to make it that there are levels to Reality, there is Absolute and then there is something below or other than Absolute.. Its easy to say when we are comfortable and sitting behind screens that being kidnapped by a cartel just is what it is, but if it happened to You the experience of it would be very very REAL, same with any other situation, someone losing a child, winning the lottery or having a baby and so forth, its all REAl on this level of Existence, maybe not on the Absolute level since there is no Individuality or way to have an Experience from my limited understanding of it, here on Earth we have Individuality present, duality is present, karma is here, not there...and you need those things to have Experience, knowing, not knowing and all the shit that is possible...

Those are two ways for sure, dis identifying is also a way, dropping all Your conscious/unconscious beliefs, living in the NOW, Accepting all that is as it Is, learning how to Breath right, Sit right, Think right, Eat right, many ways to do it, getting Yourself to a place of natural Peace or Bliss, this gives You great Clarity, when Your looking outside of Yourself for Fulfilment, that makes You Blind I think...

Purpose doesn't come from Absolute/God, the only thing that comes from that is Potential/Possibility, we are here to work out this thing we call "Purpose" which comes from out Intellect and Mind creating so many complexities to everything. Purpose can be wonderful and horrible, we have many examples in the world of ppl with a sense of Purpose doing wonderful and horrible things/actions, and its still going on today, so there are somethings that have to be worked out before one comes to a point of having a "Purpose", because we as Humans have allot of Power available to Us today, compared to yester years, in our own individual lives and our lives as a whole.. Yes, Eventually after one has acquired and the need to be more has been done via the Physical, the person should Transcend to the Mental, then Energetic and then Non Physical aspect of Who They Are in this regard I would say. Many Ppl have gotten stupidly rich, so much so that they can't spend it all, and in their trying to spend it they realize their Happiness and Desire is not settled by the spending, then they go for Power and Control, the same happens there too, they Try Drugs and it probably destroys their lives, so as we age we naturally lose certain things, this is there for Us to realize that Life is not Found in "Things" or Achievements, Accolades. Success and even in Friends and Family, when one gets to this point its natures way of making Us more Spiritually Minded and Aware, it should awaken our Desire to Seek the Answers, this is why we have the Eastern Spiritual Systems of Yoga, Buddhism, Daoism and so forth so we have a way to Awaken to our True Nature and the End of Purpose or Desire driven Lives...

I would say because in the Absolute/God realm everything just IS, its Absolute, its ONE, its ALL, everything is included and inclusive. What is going here on Earth in regards to all Life especially Humans, it is not this way on some levels, yes all is provided for Us here to have Everything we need to Survive and Thrive, has anything we gained not come from this Earth? Our Bodies comes from this Earth via our Food, the only thing that does not come from this Earth is How we are Within Ourselves, our Karmic Substance (previous Lives residual effect of all the actions we took, could be 100's to 1000's of lives as a plant, human, animal...) and living in a Dual Material World but with endless Desire and seeming Purpose coming up at all opportunities (Achieve a Goal, you want to Achieve another Goal topping the previous one, this is Desire process). Desire is the same as Life, its a progression to Having and Being more than what You are right now, this in the end if You follow it too its final conclusion leads us to complete Liberation and going back to the Absolute, losing all Individuality and ability to experience as we do here... In Simple terms it is Life (Life=Absolute/God) being able to experience itself as Life and coming full circle thru it all, which does not happen in the Absolute realm imho:)

Yes but I do not know if its a specific group of ppl or organizations, I think it is just a system of oppression and dumbing down of society in general that has been going on for a very long time and now is just the normal ways of doing things (eg politicians lying obsessively to keep their position of power and prestige) , this keep the masses down and makes us cogs in wheels to keep the industry running and the elite getting more money and power, but I don't think it is centralized or anything like that.. We as a general society are very sick and basically insane, but when the majority is like this then it appears as normal. We've created so many different ways of Suffering, not just for Humans but for the whole planet, it quite obvious that this is a manufactured thing and not just totally a natural progression over the millions of years of evolution..

This again references different Levels of Reality and Understanding/Perception and Awareness.. On the Absolute or God Level there is only that, within that contains All Possibility, but no individuality is there directly, but Potential is there within Absolute/God level, but when You filter it down to our level here on Earth, there is many "form" of Life (Life=God/Absolute), with Life being the basic foundation of it all, but thru manifestation/creation many "Form" arise from this foundation, so on this level there is no Solipsism, but lots of diversity of Life and forms, for us as Humans we have exclusive subjective Experience, all Experience is within one place, within You, but You can Experience Everything as a Part of Yourself, that give You a God/Absolute Experience, but that is Subjective, Objectively on this level there are many, in the God/Absolute level there is only ONE!

Its Better to Have Clarity in Life than Positive/Negative Thinking or Feelings, with the later Your too susceptible to emotional ups and downs, its like walking around in a circle thinking Your getting somewhere.. Clarity gives You Ease, Ease is not about having an "Easy" Life, its about avoiding hurdles that have already been dealt with over time, many ppl are stressing out about situations that have been around for a very long time and have been dealt with in empowering ways, but ppl still stress out which puts one in a negative emotional pattern and they become less Empowered over all.. The common thinking is that overcoming Challenges and Problems builds up some sort of wisdom and toughness, but as we can see in our society, there is too much of this going on, at every corner ppl are facing too many challenges, where I live in Toronto, ppl have tough days at work then they have to get home thru the chaos of a transportation system that is not very good, and hiway/road system that is so busy there is always delays and traffic jams, so at every corner ppl are getting stressed out this is no good overall. With Clarity, one can avoid stress and challenges, come to a point in Life where the basics of Life are taken care of with Ease, then they can pursue higher purposes in Life and live up to our natural Potential...

Leo is on to something on a Deeper level.. Meaning is way more than words can express via explanations of sorts, someone can give meaning to something You may think is a piece of shit, so its all Subjective for sure, it is just many ppl may think the same as You, so one may look at this scenerio and believe that if many ppl think this one thing/act has Meaning that it must be so, this is sheep mentality, many ppl think a certain team winning a certain game or series has Meaning when in reality it is not, they have just given it meaning because they are Lacking inside, just really look at it, ppl are so into certain sports teams and events that if their team of choice wins they absolutely freak out like they've won the 100million $$ lottery or something, I could never understand this...This is just one example, there are many like this, Sheep mentality and understanding.. Meaning in regards to something or someone just means that there is an very High Intensity Feeling towards it in your Subjective Experience, I used to have very high Intensity Feelings towards Xmas morning, I couldn't wait till Xmas morning, opening presents (most of which I already knew I was going to get), playing with them for endless hrs right afterwards, it was rewarding as Hell, then I grew up and the focus shifted to other things I gave my Intense focus too, it should shift over the span of a lifetime, to eventually becoming Intense about Why am I here, What is this all about, What is the Purpose of it All, these sorts of Intense Questions cause one to Seek Answers, first from outside of themselves, then hopefully from Within themselves as this is the only place You will find the True Answers to these questions..

Stillness Sadhana || How to be intense and Relaxed || SADHGURU AND SADHANA Sadhguru explains the significance of stillness in detail and shares a very powerful practice to be in absolute stillness at the same time to be phenomenally dynamic..

@Javfly33 The only problem I have with what You said is the use of the terms imagination and Dream, otherwise it sounds good.. But the question of "Why Creation", why is there this sort of Reality, how is entanglement on our part or God's part possible. I think it is all part of an Possibility Equation, if God is All, All=Possibility then that leads to Us being here as we are, with ingrained ability to have an Ego which causes us to have a sense of Individuality and Fear, Separation from God, which is needed, otherwise without this ability no Experience is Possible hence no reality here as we normally know it...

Desire is Synonymous with Life, you wanting no Desire is just One Big Desire, once You come here as Life form, especially as a Human, You cannot deny Desire, try it and then really look at it, in the end its a Desire. You want to be More than what You are right now, no difference if You go to the Bar, the Church, the Ashram or the Psychedelic store and go for a trip, all of You/Us want to be more than what we are right now, that is Desire, and its given to us as a pre Instinct before the Survival Instinct, it is just that it doesn't come to our Awareness until Survival is taken care of, no other life form on this planet has this within them.. You are right, you cannot serve two masters, if You serve the Survival Master, Accumulating more of everything, food, sex, drugs, knowledge, expression, experience, money, power, whatever You currency is, then You will stay a little Human, to become a Big Human then You have to go the way of Desire to its ultimate conclusion, that is to go beyond Your Body and Mind complexes, and expand endlessly.. There are a Million ways to do this, but this is the Ultimate goal for Us, anything less than this is a life not living up to its Potential...