Lila9

No one has the right to hit anyone. But people do this anyway for various reasons. If your life was dependent on hitting a third person you would do that. If you are conscious you would have tried to do that in the least painful ways possible, which I believe what was done by the European Jews when they migrated to this land. Their initial strategy was buying territory. This could have been much more brutal, as we have seen in the human history.

Maybe it was part of the reason along with fear of strangers.

This is their religion and their survival at stake so if they decide that it is safer to seek independence and self determination for the sake of their survival then this is valid, even if their religion contradicts it. It is up them to decide whether to strictly follow their religion or not, how much to follow it and how much to adjust it to their current state.

@Twentyfirst Jews in Europe have suffered enormous pogroms and persecution because they were not considered native Europeans. Being a Jew in a European country was regarded as one of the most shameful existences, along with being Romani, a prostitute, a homosexual, or any other person of color. They were told that they didn’t belong there and needed to return to the Middle East. But now, when they have “returned,” they are not considered Jewish enough to the Middle East, by some folks. So where they belong to?.

@Hatfort You didn’t answer my questions.

I don’t know where to put the boundary, and this is why I am asking. How many generations will their right last? And at what cost does their right to return need to be actualized? Jews were displaced 2,000 years ago from a land they had lived in for thousands of years, and people claim that they have completely lost their right to this land because it was 2,000 years ago. In what year precisely after the exile did Jews lose their right to this land?

How many years the Palestinian right to return lasts? Will it ever expire as it was expired for Jews, as some believe?

How many years the Palestinian refugees descendants will have the right to return? How many generations precisely?

Wouldn’t it raise new issues because the Palestinians of today weren’t born in Israel. So they will occupy and rule people who were actually born in Israel, just because their grandparents were born there. People criticize Israelis for doing this to Palestinians but are Palestinians doing this to Israelis is more moral? If so, what makes it more moral? Time? Because Arabs lived there 70 years ago when Jews lived there 2000 years ago (though some Jews lived in Israel all those 2000 years). So then those who lived there more recently are the ones who posses this land? If what people call the Zionist occupation of Palestine will last, at what point it will no longer be considered an occupation? At what year it will cease to be considered an occupation? 100 years? 200? 1000 from now? How many generations of Palestinians who weren’t born in the Israeli territory needed for this land to be no longer considered occupied and for violent resistance to no longer be justified?

I understand.

Thank you ❤️

There are hardcore Zionists among both European and non-European Jews. Some might argue that Middle Eastern/ North African Jews are even more hardcore in their Zionism than European Jews nowadays. Additionally, many in the latest generations are of mixed European and Middle Eastern/North African Jewish heritage, so how can they truly be divided?

It is cruel to rape anyone, no matter what they have done, and there is no justification for it. What those IDF individuals did was truly stupid and cruel. Israelis were dramatically radicalized after October 7, no doubt. Yet, based on the statistics you’ve shared, 35% of Israelis do want the rapists to be criminally prosecuted, and 41% of Israelis do believe that social media posts expressing sympathy for Palestinians should be allowed. If these surveys were conducted before October 7, the percentages were likely even higher. What if we conducted the same survey in Gaza and the West Bank? What results might we receive? Can we expect the same level of empathy? Would it be lower or higher?

What will happen when Zionism is destroyed? How would life in the territory of Israel, the new Palestine, look? How would the lives of Palestinians change? What would their government look like? How would the Middle East as a whole be affected? Where would the Jews go? The majority of Jews in Israel are the descendants of those who came from Middle Eastern countries. Would the Middle Eastern countries accept them back? Or Europe would Europe accept millions of Jews? Or America?

You may be right but looking at our government it appears that they are non-removable and are determined to stay at any cost like a cancer.

It’s not what appears in the comments. I have read them and was horrified by the level of hatred towards Israel and the lack of genuine willingness to understand, whether direct or subtle. If this is the vibe, the responses from the pro-Israel perspective will naturally be more defensive because they feel attacked. The Palestinian suffering matters, and if you ask me personally, it matters to me a lot. But it’s not easy. If you are an Israeli living in Israel for a while, who has either survived or experienced terror attacks by Palestinians, or lost someone you know because of a terror attack by a Palestinian, when you see Palestinians celebrating the October 7 attacks or any terror attacks on Israelis, you naturally associate Palestinians with fear of death and loss of your security. From this place, it’s difficult to empathize with them, because of fear. The fear of death is huge. It’s difficult to be more empathetic to the suffering of those who hurt you than to your own suffering and the suffering of your people, family, and community. If you ask a Palestinian, “Do you empathize with the suffering of Israelis, who lost their innocent loved ones in terror attacks, have seen their parents or children killed by Hamas terrorists in the most brutal ways, or some radicalized Palestinian boys, were captured by Hamas, or know someone dear to them who was captured by Hamas?” would they find it easy or difficult to empathize with the suffering of Israelis? They would very likely find it difficult to empathize with Israelis, especially if they or their families experienced any hurt from Israelis. And you would 100% understand them, and you would be correct to do so. Because it is only human to find it difficult to empathize with those who have hurt you, misled you, and proved you wrong. It would be wrong to expect sainthood from people who have been hurt, whether they are Israelis or Palestinians. Humans, at their core, are very similar to each other. We are very myopic and shortsighted because of survival. So why doesn’t the same standard apply to Israelis, who are heavily traumatized by what you see as the “Palestinian resistance”? We are a traumatized nation. Whether it’s by the long Jewish history of persecution or by the terror Israelis experienced on this land. Could you understand that? I am not saying that justifies any killings of innocent Palestinians, definitely not. but when you are traumatized to your core, it is difficult to acknowledge the suffering of others because you yourself are in pain and fear and in defense mode. You need to make some effort, do some work, and find some healing in order to recognize the suffering of your enemy and seek solutions. I say “enemy,” and I don’t really mean it because Palestinians are not my enemies, not our enemies in the absolute sense. They are actually our family. Like any other nation, we are all part of the huge human family. I want them to see Jews as their lost family and to seek reconciliation rather than destruction. I want them to channel their rage in a productive way to prosper. I want to see their children reach adulthood and live long lives without dying early by becoming martyrs. I want them to have a resistance, because they deserve it, but the kind that doesn’t celebrate the death of innocents or follow an Islamic ideology to liberate a piece of stone (Al-Aqsa in Jerusalem). Maybe then it would be much more easier to Israelis to see them and to empathize with their suffering, and the tragedy of נכבה. Because then, we wouldn’t be in a constant defense mode. And it would be also more difficult to our leaders to manipulate us using fear because we will see in our eyes that Palestinians have no intentions to harm us. Which unfortunately isn’t the case now, especially after the October 7. I often feel like the pro-Palestinian perspective justifies their low-consciousness behavior and accepts their dysfunctionality simply because they believe they are right. It’s like a mother allowing a child, whose toy was stolen, taken, sold, or suddenly disappeared, to hurt himself and others in his rage simply because he is right. without attempting to guide him to channel his rage in a productive manner, toward healing and prosperity, and into a better adulthood.

I am not a fortune teller nor a prophet. You assign me a big role. How could I possibly know? All I can confidently say now is that the two-state solution appears very impossible. This may change in the next 50 years for better or for worse, either for the Israelies, the Palestinians, or both. No one can predict this, and I don’t believe in anyone’s predictions or anyone who pretends to be a fortune teller or prophet, no matter how wise or intellectual they may be. It’s all talk. Let’s wait and see.

This is an interesting thread and I value the attempt to penetrate the delusions of what you call the “Zionist project”. This is interesting to view ourselves from a different perspective. A truthful gaze at any aspect of human existence is what humanity collectively needs the most. I have watched some of the content and I can understand the backlash that Israel receives, to some extent. But it appears that this thread is an echo chamber of convincing those who are already convinced. This thread is a big bias confirmation pool. This thread gives the impression that the Palestinian perspective is intact of delusions, corruption, manipulation. One may have been heavily manipulated by the Palestinian point of view but he will never know that.

I don’t know. Currently, Palestinians are holding parades in Gaza, calling themselves the people of Deif (the mastermind behind October 7). Children (younger than 10 years old) are wearing Hamas uniforms and holding guns, with confused stares. It appears they are more determined to destroy Israel than to peacefully coexist, even if it means sacrificing their prosperity and making their children martyrs. While some Palestinians genuinely want to coexist with Jews in the territory of Israel, the majority appear reluctant, and it gets worse. The younger generation in the West Bank has been heavily radicalized, and the vast majority of them support Hamas. This is partly due to Israel’s response to the October 7 attack but also because the PLO leadership is very old, corrupt, and disconnected from their people. So, there are no better options. Palestinians need their own awakening and conscious alternatives and movements. Israelis get accused of selecting Netanyahu as their prime minister, and Americans for selecting Trump as their president, but the same standard should be applied to Palestinians. If the majority of them had real intentions to coexist with Israelis, they would have rejected Hamas and any leadership determined to remove Israel. We have seen in the Arab world many times that when Arabs are determined to rebel against their leaders, they do so. But they don’t, because the leaders who support the destruction of Israel are the ones they choose and support, not the ones who may suggest the idea of co existence. I doubt that there are people in the West Bank or Gaza who openly support co existence with Israel and are still alive or no in prison. Given the circumstances, I doubt the two-state solution is feasible. It will likely end with either the destruction of Israel or Palestine.

I don't know, the persecution of gays and women is pretty extreme. Women and gays get murdered even in relatively moderate Muslim environments. I see this happening a lot in the Muslim villages surrounding me. A woman was killed by her brothers because she was gay, another woman was killed by her husband because she wanted a divorce. A trans woman was severely beaten by her relatives because she brought "shame" to the family and had to escape the village, hiding her entire life. I don't need the news to tell me this, I listen to the stories of Muslims who grew up in this environment. If it's happening in a democratic country like mine, where there are consequences to murder, especially if it's based on gender and sexual orientation, it must be worse in the rest parts of the middle east and Africa where women and gay rights don't exist.

There are beautiful and healthy aspects in Islam which I can see in Muslims that don't differ from the beautiful and healthy aspects of other stage blue religious people like Christians and Jews. However, the toxic aspects in Islam heavily overshadow the healthy ones, on the global scale, and unfortunately, the political correctness of the western world falling to realize it and to address it.

If you hang in a social media pro-Palestinian echo chamber, you wouldn't see this:

When 3000 UNRWA teachers in Gaza celebrating the October 7 massacre. People who supposed to be role models for the future generation. https://unwatch.org/group-of-3000-unrwa-teachers-celebrates-hamas-massacre-and-rape/

Ok, I suppose I am one of these people you refer to. I would say to my defense that I experience people demonizing Israel disproportionately and I respond to that because from my perspective these claims are absurd. I would love to hear how you suggest to communicate here, how a discussion in the standards of this forum should look like, and maybe also give some examples from this thread of what comments you consider as pushing bias VS legitimate comments. It also would be nice if you share your meta view of this conflict in a few points, assuming you studied it well, I want to learn and see what I'm missing.

Ohh I saw it just now, didn't receive a notification, my apologies 🙂 I ate dry fruits if this counts, how about you? That's ok, tell me tomorrow, have a good night!