Aquarianwolf999

@Roy @DocWatts What are some better systems that explain individual psychological development?

@Husseinisdoingfine Oh I'm not demonizing it. I'm well aware of the nuances within the religion based on my first hand experience talking with folks in multiple denominations. I've had wonderful conversations with my Eastern Orthodox friend and he certainly incorporates aspects of mysticism into his practice. I've also heard them call enlightenment "theosis" something which the Saints are known to have embodied.

Ok, that makes sense. Definitely saw it in my two friends.

Do you mean most people aren't able to be open while simultaneously surrendering entirely to one religion? I think I know what you're saying but I don't want to misinterpret it.

Thank you so much, guys! I wasn't expecting such a quick response. These are all really good points and seem to confirm some of my hunches as well as provide some new insights that I had not considered. @Bob Seeker @Preety_India I can definitely see this being true. I probably should have realized it back then because, unlike my current Eastern Orthodox friend who I can have a really deep, back and forth discourse, my other two "born-again" friends would just repeat back to me what I said in a slightly different way or they would just nod and say "that's interesting" or "that's deep". It also makes sense that they were blue the whole time because they actually grew up in a Christian family. @hyruga Yes, SD and Integral Theory are just models at the end of the day. When applied in real life they end up being quite fluid. My Eastern Orthodox friend has demonstrated to me that Christianity is not solely relegated to stage blue and you can be at much higher stages while also being Christian. I think the denomination has a lot to do with it because I participated in several of the Bible studies at his Orthodox church and the Church Father said that you can read the Bible through a literal/historical lens, a metaphorical/allegorical lens, and an inspirational lens. Whereas my two "born-again" friends take every word of the Bible literally. They are part of a non-denominational church which is a type of Protestantism. @Ya know I absolutely agree! Experiencing trauma can very quickly re-calibrate someone to their most developed stage and if that stage happens to be Blue, then they'll go back to it even if they were exploring Orange or Green. By "Born-Again" I mean extremely devout protestants. They typically take the Bible literally and don't understand the history of how it was written. They also adopt a radically new vocabulary and speak like someone who is in a cult (perhaps this is just my judgment of their newfound enthusiasm). Common "Born-Again" denominations are Pentecostal, Charismatic, and non-denominational (don't let the name fool you, it is a denomination of Protestantism based on how they view the Bible and practice their faith). @mw711 It's not an opposition by any means. I recognize the importance of fully developing and integrating each stage so I was fascinated by people seemingly jumping backward from stage green to stage blue. But from all the insights people have shared on this thread, it's clear to me that this is a necessary phase in people's development if they haven't fully integrated stage blue. I guess that's why it's called spiral dynamics: growth isn't in a straight line. @Lyubov Absolutely! You're further solidifying some of the insights people have shared here. Even though it was a bit startling at first to see such a shift when my friends changed two years ago, I've learned so much about human psychological and spiritual development by remaining open-minded and asking them questions whenever we did see each other. This has also allowed me to talk with my Eastern Orthodox friend and holy crap, I had so many assumptions about his worldview that were shattered when I actually started prying beneath the surface. At the end of the day, as Leo said "Don't confuse the map for the territory" when it comes to spiral dynamics, integral theory, or any other model. The truth is always more nuanced than it appears at face value.

Hi guys! This is my first post on the forum and I wanted to ask you all about something that I've been trying to figure out for a couple of years now. So back in the beginning of 2020, two of my friends (who I had known since high school and had grown closer to starting in 2017 when our interest in spirituality converged) became born-again Christians out of nowhere and we stopped hanging out. I've spoken with them a few times since and it feels like a mind virus has taken them over. They speak and think like completely different people from who I used to know but I guess that's the point of being "born-again". It had only been a month since I started sharing my thoughts with them about spiral dynamics when they changed. They told me that spiral dynamics was inherently judgemental and that they had found the Truth by surrendering themselves to Jesus. Since then I've witnessed four acquaintances become born-again Christians and denounce the "New Age" deception. I've also come across many social media influencers experiencing this shift. Elliot Hulse is one example. Matt Blackburn who shares great info on holistic health and biohacking became a born-again Christian but only for a couple of years as he is no longer Christian. The "New Age" to Jesus phenomenon seems very widespread right now and traditionalism is becoming very popular online. Now with this context laid out, here is first my question: How is it that people who at one point seemed to be genuinely interested in and practicing self-actualization and spirituality(Stage green or above) suddenly become fundamentalist, born-again Christians(Stage blue)? To add more nuance to this situation, one of my very good friends is an Eastern Orthodox Christian interested in the mystical, self-realization aspects of the tradition. He has been on a spiritual journey, deeply exploring and practicing numerous world religions and spiritual paths, for close to a decade. He is the only person I've met who rather than denounce and exclude everything he used to be interested in before he found Christianity (psychedelics, meditation, breathwork, introspection, etc.) has actually integrated it into his new worldview. He has taken mushrooms while going to Church for example. I disagree with him on many things, but we share much more in common than I do with my other two friends who became "born-again", non-denominational Christians. With him, I've been able to have hours-long discussions on metaphysics and epistemology whereas I cannot with the "born-again" folks. Have any of you experienced friends or family going through this shift from stage Green or above back down to stage Blue? I'd love to hear your thoughts and insights!