Consept

Youre pegging me as materialist which i understand you coming to that conclusion as im saying the reasoning given by the law of attraction is not sufficient and is more allegorical, so i guess if youre thinking binary you would get to, i must be materialist. But i agree with you in that science is limited, of course it can not truly tell you what a thought is, you would have to experience it directly thats the only way to know, so any explanation or description is always second to direct experience. But if thats the case it would go with magical beliefs also, your direct experience (just an example) is that maybe you set an intention, did practices and tried to keep thinking and feeling you already had whatever it is you wanted. Now we can explain this using logic, or psychology or even science but the direct experience of the thing happening cant be understood without directly experiencing it. Now what youre doing with LOA is trying to explain happening using what you call meta-physics or vibrations but you dont know that that is whats going on, its not in your direct experience. It doesnt make the happening automatically sacred or unquestionable because youre using this language, the same way that someone religious could say, i prayed for something and God granted me it, the happening is true but the meaning put onto it is created. The Sadhguru video to me it was quite clear what he was saying and i think @Michal__ agreed to a certain extent, Sadhuguru literally said if you have simple faith that would at least let you not have mental blocks and be questioning so youre able to take action on things, i dont think anywhere in the video he said that whatever if you think will magically come to you via vibrations. Im willing to hear your interpretation but i would ask please be truly honest about what he saying.

@Michal__ @Thestarguitarist14(phone bug) Appreciate the reasonableness. I've heard him say something along the lines of, 'when you become a bit more conscious, you realise that you can have an effect on your life and those around you, but after a while you also realise that that is not very meaningful'. Something like that anyway, but he was talking about at first you use your consciousness for more material things and then you realise that's not really important so you look to help other people or a deeper meaning. But again his take doesn't seem to be the mind literally creating things, it seems to be to gain mastery over the self, including the mind to then take the sufficient action for whatever your intention is. This doesn't discount that you could be correct on what you're saying, I just don't think sadhguru would agree entirely with what you're saying, going by what he's said.

@Michal__ @Thestarguitarist14(phone bug) You'd have to admit that guessing what Sadhguru meant by contradicting what he actually said for reasons you're suggesting is at least projection and speculation. It might be the case that he meant what you're saying but we have no way to know that, so why not just go off what he is explicitly saying? Otherwise we might as well do that with anyone that doesn't completely agree with us. I've got no first hand experience with voodoo but I'm open to the possibility, I don't know if you can show me something or whatever. Nofap keeps your hands free for action so you can manifest better. Unless you want to manifest more fapping

@Michal__ Yes I can see that being the reason LOA books doing that to help people bypass over analyzing, that does make sense and can be beneficial. But I think at some point it's important to realise this as it will turn into a dogma especially if people start seeing it work. Again it's similar to the bible where they might be presented in that way to be more easily understood and prevent over thinking but then it becomes dogma as people miss what it was pointing to. I'm not too sure about voodoo but I haven't had any experience with it so I can't really comment. I would feel that you need action as Sadhguru was talking about, but obviously the mind is a massive if not the only component of starting the action. @Thestarguitarist14 if someone disagrees with you, how should they present it so that you don't become defensive and aggressive? Love anyway bro

@Michal__ I don't disagree with what's said in the video, he's basically saying to make anything happen you have to believe or know that it can happen, of course that's the case, if I really don't believe I can go outside of my house (agoraphobia) I won't be able to do it or at least it would be very difficult. He also says that you can become more conscious and as such be aware of what you truly want, again of course, these are all very important and very necessary. He also specifically says that God will not lift a finger to help you, as in nothing magical is going to happen, you have to do it and remove whatever mental blocks you have preventing that, which I whole heartedly agree with and my own life literally changed when I realised this. The disagreement comes in the pseudo-scientific explanation, where the reason given is somewhat magical, in that your thought vibrations are literally creating things. I think you can look at the secret as somewhat allegorical, I think some people take it as literal, similar to what happens with the Bible. Which becomes the danger if you make dogma out of it and become attached to it so much you get defensive when it's questioned as you shape your life around it.

I mean in comparison to expectations, as in what people expect conspiracies are compared to what they actually are. I blame hollywood lol

Reality is usually quite boring and practical

I read the book he did with Robert Greene a while back, 50th law, I dont remember it too well, but it was quite an easy read and there was the odd orange nugget in there. I think 50 cents story is pretty amazing, not many would even survive his upbringing let alone achieve the success he has, in fact 50 should've died prob a few times. To be that strong mentally without much family backing and then to be so emersed in red street life and then move to the top levels of corporate life is an incredible story and there are definitely lessons to be learnt from it. For now he's pretty hardcore orange so if you don't want that content it's probably not for you, I won't be running out to buy his book personally but he definitely deserves respect

Right, the purpose for a Lion is to be what it is, it would follow it would be the same for us but the problem is we are very complexed and have the ability to imagine anything in our minds. We can even imagine we are not what we are, the lion can not do this and has no choice but to be what it is. What causes suffering is that we cant just be as we are, if we could we'd be perfectly aligned. It could even be that the idea of some greater meaning is what throws us off our actual meaning of just being

True, ive actually gotten a lot out of the bible and Jesus' teachings but if i had taken it in from a 'true believer' of the religion i think it wouldve put me off just because of the dogmatic approach. There are some schools and religions that are an out and out scam but i actually think there is truth in everything, even watching the nxivim doc i could see that there was some truth in what their philosophies were it just went off the rails and turned into a cult. So im open minded in that respect i just dont gel with the 'i believe it because its true and its true because i believe it' kind of dogma, i also think its a bit risky to not have multiple sources, as in just to have one teacher or one religion as you will then tie yourself to that one ideology Yeah excellent reminder and advice. For the forum it is difficult as you have so many perspectives at once, but i guess just let people be where theyre at, if they are open to questioning im sure they will respond in an open way

No offence taken, im more taking a devils advocate role, in an effort to encourage people to have a look at their beliefs, i do the same with myself, but i understand why it may have come off it as it has. Of course stories and anything that leads you into spirituality and deeper meaning is great and that will be the path for some and probably was for myself, at some point that will need to be questioned to progress otherwise youll stay in the red pill pick up mindset for your whole life, or youll have a dogmatic religious belief for your whole life. But maybe that is the journey that some people will take and thats ok as well, but my perspective is if i see others in illusion should i at least encourage them to look in different directions, if they dont want to look then thats fine. Yes stories are great at conveying information, to be honest i find them much more digestable than hardcore science, however when they are taken on as truth that could be a problem, the presentation might be honest in that its fantasy but others could take it on as truth to fit whatever needs they want to fulfil. But i take your point that things need to unfold as they do and maybe its not for me to question things that i see as delusions, im not saying LOA is necessarily a delusion im just saying in general. I will say when ive had awakening experiences, what hit me so hard is the pain and suffering people experience being tied to beliefs, mainly the belief that we are a self, that brings so much pain and i felt a need to help people see out of that, but it is a very difficult task as the mind can feel a certain comfort even in pain. Ill also say that if the LOA lets you see that you dont have to be in pain by writing your own story then fair enough, i would just be concerned about tying yourself to any story as i see it as similar to tying yourself to the bible which can then be used to manipulate, i think there needs to be a certain level of consciousness to really be aware of what the LOA is and to also not get caught up in the dogmatic belief of it

Yes i used them to highlight the belief structure, other practices that follow a similar belief structure should definitely be questioned. Ultimately what any practice should do is allow you to drop any beliefs or thoughts and just witness and be with what is. I think even the religions i mentioned do this to some extent its just they have a whole load of other beliefs and rules you have to follow, then you end up getting tied to this and lose the point, it becomes dogmatic. Im not too concerned about the content but if it can point me in the right direction which is to stillness essentially, then im all for it in terms of helping to open up consciousness for everyone

That makes sense and i can get down with that, but when i hear people talk about LOA including in this thread, its always in reference to material things so thats why ive framed it in that way (im aware that separate material things are just distinctions we make in our minds). If it was talked about in a higher conscious way i think it would make a lot more sense but in films like the secret its talked about in a certain which is needed to get to the masses, as such psuedo-science and whatever else gets propagated and treated as sacred. But i understand the need to sell it in this way as people just wouldnt pay as much attention in other ways. Again my whole point is that dogmatic beliefs are not the best way to go about things, but if people think thats not the case and theyre happy in their beliefs then all the best to them, there wouldnt be anything i could say to convince them otherwise and of course i could be wrong, there could be brain waves that affect vibrations in the spiritual realm and attract certain things in the physical plain, or it could be a psychological process that happens in the brains RAS and maybe we like stories like the Secret rather than neurological explanations, who knows.

Alright man, its all love anyway, im glad its working for you and i wish you the best from it. I hope you could see a little bit what im getting at but if not its all good.

OK but wouldnt that entail testing everything, which of course is not a bad thing, but the very way to experiment with most beliefs is to believe them, thats what all religions say and many other things say. The reason i was drawn to non-duality and that type of spirituality is precisely because it was a stripping away of beliefs, including ones Id held all my life, rather than trying to add on beliefs. Im not talking about occult as ive said i dont really know anything about it. But in general anything that asks me to believe something without direct experience or trys to take some other happening and attribute it to the particular god or theory or belief, basically something thats not really epistemologically sound, i would consider that a dogmatic belief. A test of this would be to look at whether your reason for belief can be valid with another belief. For example a Christian might say 'i believe in my God because i prayed for something and it happened' so they will say their direct experience is what made them believe, however a Hindu might say 'I prayed to Vishnu and what i wanted happened', however both people will say the other one is completely wrong and theyre right, even though they both came to their belief in exactly the same way it just had a different story. Technically if you accept that your way of coming to a belief is correct you should take on everyone elses belief who came to it in the same way. Therefore the belief is not sustainable. I will say there is a lot of truth in both religions, its just if you take the on dogmatically and literally it gets lost

I agree with you but thats probably a higher level conversation than this thread, reality is not what we see, what just see whatever we need to that aids our survival, so reality probably can never be seen for what it is as long as we're in a human body, so we're talking on a illusionary material level which i dont mind doing lol. But what people are saying with the LOA is that they can reap all kinds of material benefits from believing in it , my point is that if that is true why not help people instead, im not asserting anything myself, im just talking from their perspective. Bro im taking what you literally used as examples of manifesting, you said LOA got you a studio film, fair enough and maybe your art will help people, maybe its completely self indulgent, i have no idea. But either way im sure there are some kids starving in your town or some kids that need help with jobs or whatever why not set some intentions to help them, i really dont get that if you 100% have the power to do these things that you would choose not to

The trouble is, how do you make the distinction? If someone is lets say Christian and says on the forum 'My Christian God exists and you would have to experience it yourself to make your own decision', it means that if i dont experience it i cant question this belief, if this Christian then says 'you have to believe and then it will be true for you', i can believe it but a belief alone does not make something true if that was the case literally anything can be true, even stuff that contradicts. So if people use this belief system for different things, how do we draw the distinction about whats true and what isnt? Have a look at this video, he goes through, polite epistemological process of questioning someone who believes in religion, if you look at the mechanics of her thinking is very interesting

Right but im not necessarily saying cure cancer. Its interesting you bring up that LOA power is somewhat limited, what would be the limit, as in whats the most we can achieve for the planet using it? But anyway it can be relatively small things, like you could use it to help your local elderly people feel less lonely or help people who want to get jobs or whatever, actual achievable things, why dont people or why dont you use the law of attraction for these things?

Well you say you are of higher consciousness, high consciousness expressly is very self-less and so their life purposes revolve around helping other people, if you look at guys like sadhguru and mooji they want to raise the consciousness of everyone they can and also Saduguru especially has programs that help impoverished people. Only wanting stuff for you would be lower consciousness by definition because youre either not conscious of others suffering or you are and you dont care enough to help. So with regards to LOA if you are high conscious and you have the means to help through LOA which will definitely work, I dont see how you could just focus on minor things like material gain for yourself. You should of course take care of yourself as well, but im guessing LOA is an infinite thing so you could do both as far as i understand it, so why choose not to help others or the planet or anything outside of yourself?

Heres my question though, and it follows what @Keyhole was saying, from your perspective if you believe in LOA it means that you have the power to manifest absolutely anything, if you set your intention and do whatever the steps are it will come to fruition, so lets say thats the case 100% no doubt. If you could do that why wouldnt you set an intention to end the suffering of all people, or raise everyones consciousness, or stop poor people dying because they cant afford treatment, you literally have the power to do these things and more, but your choices are to star in a studio film and get an audition. Why dont you or every other LOA believer set these intention and make these things happen? If it is a meta-physical law it will definitely happen so you are making a choice of personal gain over intentions that could help many other people. Why dont you set these intentions that could change the world for the better?

Interesting, i like the idea of non-linear time. How ive heard it described is - If you look at a comic book the whole story already exists at one time, it takes another agent, a perceiver to experience the comic in a linear way but it is only linear if the perceiver perceives it in that way. So in regards to deja vu it could be that (if you take the perspective of a character in the comic) the character has somehow accessed a page that is further along the comic without it yet coming in to its perception in a linear way. I would say the explanation from op is speculation but a good explanation all the same, its a really fascinating subject deja vu, as there doesnt seem to be a definitive answer

What would be the purpose of life for a Lion? Serious question

It's not that I was upset about it or that I even thought people that believed in LOA are automatically trapped closed minded dogma. It's more the nature of the response to questioning and the attitude that was taken by some around that belief. Actually when I looked into it, there's loads of stuff that's true about it but just not necessarily the pseudo science aspects which is the main thing some people were arguing about. So for me it's not so much the content, it's the assertion that this person thinks they're 100% correct when really there are gaping holes where they've jumped to massive conclusions, the content could be anything really. Of course judging this is the hard part because those that are tied to dogma will argue that they're not. It's probably both as I said and that will be something for me to introspect on. But how I look at it as well is that the point of spiritual work is to become aware of our many delusions otherwise what is the point of the forum, to just hold up our dogmatic beliefs?

@Michal__ (tag is a phone bug) If LOA leads to this kind of mindset where I'm name dropping Hollywood stars on a consciousness forum, I don't want it just off of that basis. Calm down bro, humble yourself