Consept

@Kalki Avatar Just so im clear on what youre saying, your view is that there shouldnt be a lockdown and also anyone should be able to opt out of the vaccine. This still doesnt give a clear plan on what should be done going forward. We know deaths are increasing and will increase further without any measures, there have been 60k plus excess deaths in the UK and thats with all these measures in place. Also a major problem with covid is that a high number of people can have serious symptoms, they may not die but they will need hospital care, this has a knock on effect for others who have conditions and can not get timely treatment, basically it puts significant pressure on the nhs. As far as i understand your position, you are suggesting living normally and taking no action, this is not a solution and will definitely cause deaths and many other negative consequences. Your vaccine solution of some people take it some dont is also not really viable as there needs to be something around a 90% take up rate for the population to achieve immunity and eventually kill the virus. If the virus is going around say the 40% that dont want to take it, it will always be in circulation. So again what is your actual solution, im not convinced that letting it run rampant is a viable solution and i doubt if you were in power yourself you would be able to justify the huge loss of life that has and will occur without any kind of strategy. There have been worse virus' there affect was worse because medical advancements have occurred. This is specifically deadly because its not immediately deadly, so people can have no symptoms and spread it around. If it was ebola its too deadly which is why it didnt travel. Ive also mentioned that ive used excess deaths so regardless of all causes theres been a high level of extra deaths. Covid has a low death rate compared to things like heart disease yes, but hospitals are prepared and have a rough idea of how many will come in with heart disease, its also not contagious and will not get worse month to month.

This is the nature of most businesses in our current culture, you can see it as bad but really its just the current paradigm. The reality is most people would more likely respond to hard science and business than if the language was flowery and caring, it is what it is. The fact that we are in this paradigm has led to market competition which is why the vaccine has been developed so quickly. Also they have to look at it from a business point of view because vaccines are not a big money maker for pharma companies, that is why the government subsidises them when someone gets ill, because business wise its not worth it, the pay outs theyd have to make would mean they cant continue to make vaccines. In fact most companies wanted to stop making vaccines because it wasnt worth it, governments had to step in and cover them otherwise they wouldve just stopped. Its also important that these companies do make profits so that they can continue to develop vaccines and medicines, yes they probably take the piss and pay themselves crazy bonuses, but at the core the company at least can not lose money otherwise people will die. There is a lot of manipulation and medicine that doesnt need to be sold etc, there a lots of problems with pharma. So the pharma companies as they are, are just reflective of the society we live in, as we develop hopefully we can use less orange language, but just because its that know doesnt necessarily make it bad. Also again what would be the solution, assuming people are both against lockdowns and vaccines, what do we do to get out of this?

People definitely dont realise the impact this will have, I always used to wonder how someone like hitler could get into power and i think we are seeing how right before our eyes. I dont think its a stretch to group him with hitler or other dictators btw, i have no doubt that trump would be cool with a civil war or even splitting up the country

There was the Tea Party movement which launched during Obamas term - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement#Public_opinion It was basically republicans who wanted more libertarian policies and were opposed to Obama, about 28% polled said they were part of the movement, so not really near Trumps numbers but still a good chunk of people. Obama said movements like this painted him as a far left socialist and because of that the pendulum swung too far back which is why people like Sarah Palin and then Trump came through. I think what Trump has done is add unashamed, populist language to this underlying movement and empowered poor people to engage with it, even though a lot of the time theyre actually voting against their best interests. So basically there was a relatively little, manageable fire simmering and Trump put rocket fuel on it.

I understand there should obviously be a concern for anything you put in your body and therefore there should be unbiased research that goes into it, BUT, heres my question - Most people who are against a vaccine are also against a lockdown or even masks and social distancing (generalising but in my anecdotal experience), so in this case what is the actual solution? Many have died already, towards a million in fact, and thats with all these measures in place. An argument i hear a lot is, x amount of people die from heart disease etc', thats true but why would you be ok with so many extra people dying? In the UK weve had nearly 70,000 excess deaths, which is deaths this year above the average, thats not nothing, thats real people that have actually died, imagine if no measures were put in place, how many more wouldve died. A vaccine is one solution, if its true that the effectiveness is 95% that means only 50k people die instead of 1 million. But lets say we dont go down that road, what is your solution to curb the amount of deaths that have and will continue to happen for the foreseeable future, balancing that with keeping the economy going and people living their lives, what would you do or suggest? (anyone whos against the vaccine, feel free to answer)

OK so i take it if the doctor said you have a life threatening illness in which you will die within the next week unless you take a pill you would refuse? Where do you draw the line, what about safety measures, like seatbelts in cars, which are modern safety tech, should those not be worn as theyre also fear based safety measures? What youre talking about is prevention which is important however to build up an immune system that can fight off a novel disease could take years if its even possible. So prevention is not a cure, for example you wouldnt say to a hiv patient if they have a healthy diet and exercise theyll be cured, it might aid the recovery but there proven drugs and treatment they undergo that has given most a normal life span, would you disregard these treatments?

Wouldnt any modern medicine be fear orientated? Should those with HIV just let it be and stop resisting?

He would have to be because trump being turquoise is so far out of my understanding or consciousness that the only way to understand it, youd have to be coral or above lol

I think you or someone else mentioned he was at turquoise before, i dont really see why his level will go up if hes right. Mccain didnt make false claims or even bush wouldnt that put them further up than trump? I think your confusion with the election or with as you say being a yellow thinker is that im not sure you fundamentally understand spiral dynamics, im open though if you can explain your reasoning of why you put him at turquoise

Where would you put trump on the spiral?

This is fully insane and shows that even a looming death wont change someone who has strong conspiratorial thinking

If you know something theyve missed then why not say?

In that case it would be on you to thoroughly research what exactly theyve done and how theyve tested etc and how that compares to previous vaccines. If you havent done this your assumptions are not coming from a place of knowing its just speculation from ignorance of the subject matter.

Do you know how long it should take or the extent of testing that had been done? What would you advise the people working on the vaccine to do to make it more safe?

I think what it comes down to is if you trust the government or not. Those countries or people that don't trust their government and are not educated on vaccines will of course not take it. They have good reasons to not trust their government and for me this is a problem with politics, when you have a highly partisan politcal atmosphere it means that you will not trust the other side if they do get in power. Further you might not trust the government period if you have been negatively affected by their policies. A little research will show that vaccines are safe and have been very effective in eradicating illnesses, the doubt around it is due to other factors

Assuming it has been sufficiently tested as any other vaccine or medicine is or should be and there are no unwanted side effects or issues with it, then i dont really see the problem. Given this criteria, the reasons why are obvious ie reduce deaths and illness, reduce spread so that normal life can resume, reduce pressure on healthcare systems and workers etc. For me the only argument that can be made against it is if the vaccine itself is dangerous

Excellent short talk from Chris Hedges, really highlights the cause of a lot of issues right now, thoughts?

Love them, I'm not saying it flippantly, but imagine they were kids who had a confused view. The best thing you can do is meet them at their level, try understand them and love them. Most of the times debates and arguing just doesn't work. If you look at say jesus, according to the stories anyway, he was just trying to spread love and bevan example of it, he wasn't debating anyone, all the politicians over the years have never had as much impact as those that just want to spread genuine love. A great example I've seen is of Gary Vaynerchuk in a recent insta post of his, basically he voted for Biden but of course he has many followers that vote for trump. He replied to each comment on his post and I think how he dealt with it is a great example of how to deal with the kind of people you're talking about - https://www.instagram.com/p/CHTqmO2Mdes/?igshid=n14qmlnw43sn I truly believe the more people react like this the less conflict you'll probably see. I'm not saying Gary vee is perfect either but I just like the way he dealt with this

The guy from Borat 2, Rudy something, is making a speech about republicans not being allowed to witness the counting. Loads of excuses, no signs of conceding

twitter are also saying if he loses his presidency hes no longer a special person of interest which means if he keeps putting up false tweets he will lose his account.

BBC have called it here as well

There is demonisation of green, but i also think its fair to say that the left could have been more inclusive, as in less superiority and just picked better potential leaders. For a long time its felt like politicians are not real people and are 'acting' to stay in power, i think you get that vibe from Hilary for example, so in many ways it did need a shake up, i wouldve rather Bernie shook things up instead of Trump but what you gonna do. So if there is one good thing about Trumps rise and inevitable fall, is that hes made it so that people expect more from the politicians in terms of being real people.

Im from the UK and Johnson is probably only slightly better than Trump, wish we were ready for a prime minister like yours though

My bad we've had a troll on here whos had multiple accounts and be banned loads of times who just constantly pushes a pro-Trump narrative. We're not really tribal you can say what you want and give different perspectives unless you support Trump (joke, kind of)

you must get bored, how many accounts have you burned through