Consept

Yeah I agree this is probably the main factor. It maybe controversial but i also think masculine, male opinions and voices are not heard that much in mainstream media, there are many shows like the view, the real etc etc where women talk about their issues but i dont think you get that much on the male side. What this leads to is a lot of young guys seeking this out and finding themselves down toxic youtube rabbit holes. I think it would be good to have more healthy mainstream male perspectives that are actually being real and can relate to other guys.

Yeah i think this is a good summary, the issue is there are limited good, strong men and theyre becoming scarcer, strength being such an important trait will mean women end up with sociopathic guys. Leading question but why do you think there are so many weak men nowadays?

At 5? What happened and do you think there's some trauma stemming from that?

Wow that escalated

Don't really like that guy, but on the question I would say a woman is more likely to cheat if she doesn't really respect the guy that she's with but stays with him for whatever reason.

OK so what this is called is an ad hominem argument, you havent addressed any of the points made and youve made no attempt to understand where im coming from, instead youve directly attacked me. Youve made a whole heap of assumptions about me and my experiences simply because my opinion differs from yours, which is an insane argument because what if youre wrong? Anyone that disagrees with you must have been hurt or theres a sob story, no my friend. Theres no sob story, ive had great intimate relationships with black women, ive heard their struggles first hand, my viewpoint incorporates all that experience and more, furthermore im mixed race myself. Im assuming youre not a black woman but somehow you speak for them, this is the problem i have with this green paradigm where its almost like a show of how much we're aware of other peoples issues, so much so we talk on forums and post blackout pictures on instagram and maybe even protest, until the next cool social issue. But most dont do anything or even have an idea of what the solution might be. Ive worked in charities, mentored young people and have talked about racism with many black women, its not enough just to say racism is bad, what are the solutions? Its not about waiting until people stop being unconsciously biased, there are real issues with lack of father figures and broken homes, which are creating new trauma in children. I can acknowledge black women are at the bottom of the racial totem pole, ok cool so whats your solution now?

Love this guy, his instagram vids are great where he'll meet random people on Omegle and just start rapping about them, really amazing to watch

Do you have to be speaking for someone? I dont understand your question to be honest, if im talking for anyone its black people as a whole, but as i said i try and look at things systematically, so its not about sides for me its more about sorting out problems.

I try and take an overall view, if I do mention myself it's just to make an overall point. I'm not for or against anyone, just trying to look at where the solution could be. There's loads of valid criticisms for anyone's behavior, we're just talking about specific group here

You know I'm not talking about myself right ? All I'm saying is women have a lot more at stake when it comes to this and they are also in control of access. But anyway if you don't get the point that's fine.

@Etherial Cat I havent got grievences or expectations, believe it or not my position actually comes from compassion. I have a lot of black women in my life that I care about and when I look at actual solutions really its not about fault but it is about taking accountability to do what you can about your situation. Yes there are reasons, valid reasons for the position people find themselves in but if you're not happy with it, you have to find a way to change it. If we spend all our time looking at the reasons and not the things that we can actually change, nothing will change. I have an uncle whose an alcoholic, the whole family enable him and tell him he's not really an alcoholic and minimise the issue, say things like 'it's cos your wife left you' or 'it's understandable as you're having trouble finding work'. Now these things are true and could be good reasons to drink but do they actually help him get out of his position or do the enable him to stay there? Ive had a lot of issues growing up with family, I want to feel different, I want my life to be positive and be a good influence on those around me. My options are doing the hard work of introspection and therapy and whatever else or focusing on my family issues, obviously I'm gonna choose the hard Road. But I do accept its difficult to take that road, but at the very least we shouldn't make it so easy not to

OK well guys are gonna do it if they're given a chance, that's the reality, especially the ones that don't care about looking after a family, so I guess females are screwed, literally, and they're gonna have kids with guys who can't look after them.

Come one you know this isnt a good argument, a man is not having sex with any woman that doesnt want it, if he does its rape and hes going to prison. The onus is definitely on the woman to select a man that is going to be around for the kids, its the womans and the kids life that is going to be affected the most so she should be extra cautious about who shes procreating with. There are guys that are not going to be good fathers walking around trying to have sex with girls, that is always going to happen, its the women that have to choose the right ones if they want to have kids with them. If i knock up some random woman and it turns out shes not a good mother and she does onlyfans and has no qualities that would be conducive to being a wife or mother and she actually is trying to drain me of as much money as she can, then is it her fault she exists or is it my fault for not getting to know her better and wrapping up? I cant say 'ah you know its the womans fault', come one bro

Right so dont have kids until youre in a long term stable relationship or married, that would be the obvious solution here

The assumption here is that most people that were married in the 60s were in a toxic situation, we really dont know that to be true i dont know what the numbers are but im guessing most people that say thats the case dont know either so im always curious as to why its the case that this is the default belief. Especially taking into consideration how dysfunctional and how many broken families there are at the moment, surely this is a worse situation for kids than previously. I think its great that there is freedom and you dont have to get married and theres not as much social pressure, however when it comes to kids even if you dont get married its really on you to stay together, if you dont think thats very likely or the dad is a deadbeat or whatever, then you really have no business having kids. I mean you can but single parent households have really been the root of so many problems in the black community, so there has to be some responsibility on the womans part as she is in control of who she reproduces with. There are reasons for it but it is what it is. Also if they are angry at the world why does that also get turned on the man that theyre with? Remember its black men who are trying to be in relationships with black women that are saying this, i dont think it should be so swiftly discounted. Also if they are angry about things or theyve had traumatic histories, which im not denying, then why not look into counseling or therapy? Yes its true there are racial issues, ive had to deal with plenty myself. But if you take a person for an example, lets say theyve been dealt a bad hand, they didnt have a good upbringing, theyve had to deal with racism etc the result of which has meant theyre unhappy and tired of dealing with this stuff, what are their options? Is it to tell everyone to treat them better or is it to see what they can change, how they can improve and how they can truly grow as a person? Now in my experience whatever hand your dealt you will always be better off improving yourself because no ones going to do it. So lets say we sort out racism and sexism completely do you think thats suddenly going to mean black women start choosing better partners, lose weight, stop having kids with men that wont stay around etc etc? These are internal changes and you dont need racism and sexism to stop to start doing them. Yes work on systemic change but i dont understand this thing of not working on yourself because of racism. The other thing with the sexist and racism, not to downplay it, but black women are doing the best that theyve ever done career wise, financially, they are one of the most educated groups (much more than men). So again im not denying that racism exists, of course i know first hand, but if black women are able to educate themselves, have kids by themselves etc and when they do it, its all them, it was their choice, theyre independent. But then when it comes to keeping a healthy weight or having kids with a decent partner, its black mens fault or its societies fault. It doesnt make sense to me. This video is an example of what i mean, feel free to give your opinion on it -

Research it for 5 mins and you'll see the statistics, again this thing of black women not getting married is a recent thing, pre-1960 the marriage rates in the black community were higher in some respects than white people - So here is the first assumption, anytime a woman gets divorced the man is abusive and toxic. Yes I'm sure that some are, but the vast majority aren't and also is it just specifically black men that are toxic? Why are the marriage rates for other races not as low? Also do you think it's just men that are toxic and not women, 40% of domestic abusers are reported to be women https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other (keep in mind most men don't even report it) But yet around 80% of divorces are triggered by women, so I don't think all those divorces are women running away from abusive men, I'm sorry. True but black women were a lot poorer previously when the marriage rates were better, they were also in a lot better shape, so again this argument doesn't track when you compare it history. Having dated and been around black women and whose friends are married to black women, I would say yes they are more dominant than other races. Not all as I've dated some more submissive black women and I didn't perceive them as dominant because they were black. Its not a perception thing its a direct experience thing. There's also the report that I posted giving actual black mens opinions on this. By the way every one of your posts is a way of absolving black women of any kind of accountability, whilst also putting the blame on black men. I don't think this is really the best way to address the real issues going on. At some point black women have to look at what is their part in the reason why there are so many single parent raised kids, that might include but not be limited to, not choosing the wrong man to procreate with. Also your argument that this is all down to racism doesn't track either. Racism has gotten better through the years whilst this situation has gotten worse. So by that trend, even if racism was completely gone this issue still wouldn't be solved.

Many of your points are correct but im not sure about the conclusions you draw. As i understand what you said in the first paragraph is that black women cant be vulnerable enough to let a man look after them and so this explains why many dont get married today. But when you look at stats 62% of black women were married in the 1950s, now keep in mind whatever issues black women have today, they were at least 10x harder in the 50s, we're talking about a time when black people as a whole couldnt go to universities, were discriminated heavily in every aspect of society. So if we follow this as society has somewhat improved (although not perfect) with issues of race you would expect that these numbers would improve, even if we say marriages are somewhat out of fashion at least you would expect if children are involved both parents are around. But this is not the case in 1995 the number fell from 62% to 38%, to compare white married women went from 66% to 59% in the same time period. This has gotten even worse now and i think its around 20% for black women. So the question is why were black women able to let a man look after them when times were even harder but now as times are at least easier than before, they cant? Also another interesting statistic, 4 out of 5 black women are overweight - https://www.wbur.org/commonhealth/2012/11/29/why-are-four-out-of-five-black-women-obese Now there are debatable valid reasons for this but as we've mentioned, this is a factor for mens attraction to women in general. So obviously if women are more attractive they are more likely to attract a partner. But my point in bringing this up is that at some point there has to be some kind of personal accountability taken. As i said youre not wrong about your points but no one is going to change these outcomes except the people involved. I think at the very least a bit of weight loss or exercise on a shallow level or on a deeper level choosing the right men to have kids with, trying to make it easy for the man to be in the kids life even if you broke up with him. Also on your point about self hatred from black men for dating outside their race, for one any other race can date outside their race and it not be called self hatred, but for two black women can be harder to deal with, not all of course but if as a man youve had an experience where black women have dominated you, it can, perceivably, be an easier life to be with a white, latina, or asian woman. As youve mentioned there are reasons for women being like this but either way men might not want to deal with it. Another form of taking responsibility could be to go to therapy. You might be interested in some of the results from this qualitative study on why black women are disproportionately single, they interviewed 100 or so black men to get their opinions, here are some highlights - --Seventy-three percent of the respondents in the gender relations category indicated that the Black woman’s approach to men is misguided, as it relates to patterns of pursuing a man for a relationship and not exhibiting ladylike behavior (e.g., cursing, wearing revealing clothing) (n=2), setting standards too high and placing more value on men who can offer material possessions and status (n=12), engaging in controlling behavior (n=2), lowering their standards to attract a man’s affection (n=4), and not being approachable (e.g., not friendly, bad attitude) (n=10). -- Victor, a 32-year old who had been married for 5 years, agreed: “There’s not really a shortage of men out there. It’s that some of the women are raising their standards so high that they are missing out on that person for them.” Paul, 32 years of age and married for 5 years, concurred: “[Women] look [at] what’s on the outside and not what’s on the inside. They [are] not looking at their character; they [do not] care about looking at what they [are] made of [on] the inside.” Forty-eight-year-old Xavier, married for 24 years, summed up his thoughts with, “You’ve got women who are not married; there’s two ends to that pull. You’ve got [those with] high standards and [who look] down at all the guys, then you’ve got the other end, where, you know, anybody will do.” -- Other men observed controlling behavior among women. For instance, Isaac, 40 years of age and married for 11 years, said, “When I was single, and a lot of my single guys talk about [this], a lot of women that I chose not to marry, it dealt a lot with controlling us…You need to do this, this, this, this, this, that…They wanted to control you and shape you to be what they wanted you to be.” -- In 37% of the men’s views, some independent women believe that they don’t need a man (n=15). Quinn, married for 7 years and 35 years of age, said, “They got [it] in their mind [from] this independence song [referring to song titled, Independent by Webbie, Lil Phat, and Lil Boosie] that they can do it by their self. Can’t nobody do it by themselves.” Ricky, 34 years of age and married for 5 years, agreed: “The role of ‘I don’t need anything but myself’ has been contributing to the fact that a lot of women are looking past the benefits of marriage.” The men also described a lack of knowledge among Black women about how to share the responsibility for managing a household with a mate, having spent years without a partner or a model https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4465800/ Go down to the results and youll get a lot of answers to what we're talking about

Interesting debate that i thought was relevant to this thread -

Im learning as well but looking into it marriage has been on a decline but black womens decline is much steeper. If we just look at how many black women are married regardless of what race theyre married to, it was only 34% (women between 25 and 54) compared with 67% of white women same age, this was in 2006, and the gap between black and white women has grown even more since then, and was declining before then. The amount of black children in a single parent household is 54% compared to white children at only 22%. So these are massive gaps and ive got to say family and home life has to be the biggest factor not only in the success of the child, but mental health, propensity to criminality and many more crucial things. This is not just a social violence issue, although it couldve stemmed from that, although i dont even think thats a good reason as family this is the worst its ever been despite there being a lot more social violence back in the day. https://voxeu.org/article/incarceration-unemployment-and-black-white-marriage-gap-us Im not sure about this, its really hard to quantify suffering in such a way, but natives have had a terrible time, genocide and everything else, and their family structure is still in much better. Black people obviously have suffered, but i think for some things we have to take responsibility, meaning that it isnt black peoples fault but they do have to find a way out of it, one of which being the family stuff which they are somewhat in control of and as we've seen other races have been able to at least have this part of the picture look a lot better than black people. Black women of course would want to better their position but the ones that are successful are already in a good position and are not even considering good men because they dont earn enough. Other black women are choosing men that are not going to be around or are just generally not good choices, having kids with them and then raising the kids as single mothers, this is a massive problem and is the cause of a lot of problems. You can blame men for not being good but the women are ultimately in charge of choosing who they reproduce with, also a lot of men that 'arent any good' probably also came from single parent households, so its a never ending cycle. Yes youre right it is also important for girls to have a father figure, i didnt mean to diminish that, i just think its slightly more important for boys to have a healthy role male model. Yeah its a social policy here in the uk and similar in the us , essentially if you have a kid and the father leaves or was never there, youre a priority council house, youll get rent paid and youll get money for the kids. If the dad is around the family have to cover all these costs, will have to pay normal rent etc. So the results are women having kids with whoever they want regardless of if they can provide in the knowledge that the government will back them. Im all for social policies but we also have to look at how they can affect certain communities and it seemed like this one did. Also sorry for the situation with your dad, its not really fair that your mum didnt care about what he could bring to the table as youve lost out in that. I always think the kids have to always be priority whatever happens. Its because youre mixed race, not to be rude, im also mixed race but the stats that you see are for black women not mixed race. Lighter complexion women are always seen as more beautiful, Beyonce, Rhinana etc are the acceptable faces of black beauty and theyre often made as white as possible in magazines. So yes of course youll get approached more, but i dont think that will be the same for darker skin women. I always got a lot more action and attention than my darker skin friends. I even had a white girl tell me once that her friend isnt very confident, she could get a light skin guy if she was

Fair points and i think they are valid, but i think theres some other issues. So its true black men are subject to this but then they always have been and in fact it was worse before - jim crow, red lining etc, during these times most black people were married to each other in more traditional setups. So we cant say its 100% due to social violence as you say because more black people are able to escape these traps than before but marriages are going down. There is an argument that a lot of single parents were and still are incentivised to be single parents, not in that they have a kid to get benefits, but in that they would get more money if the dad is not around. I myself grew up with a single mum for 10 years before she re-married, my dad didnt make too much money and it was quite clear my mum would be better off financially if he wasnt around as she could get more benefits and also get contributions from him (which he didnt make too many). But i wonder if more single mums would either think twice about having kids with a guy that cant provide or stay with a guy whos not making too much money yet, if they would not benefit financially if they left. Im not blaming single mums for this az theyre doing what they believe to be best, but i think theyre underestimating how important a father figure is especially for a boy. Of course there are situations where the father is just a complete lost cause, but its still down to the mother to select wisely. Another thing to note and not really to compare them negatively, but if you look at other races ie latin, asian, the women will stay with the men through this hardship or even if theyre not making much money. A Mexican guy who works as a gardener trying to get work everyday, will still have a feminine, wife back at home, latin people tend to also have a lot of collective trauma as well. Black women seem to have higher expectations than most other races, im not exactly sure why this is. In terms of dating in general, yes its often noted that black women are the least picked on dating apps but are also least likely to date outside of the race. Black men are pretty high up for other races and they also date have an issue dating outside their race, but when it comes to marriage i think they tend to go for black women. So all this leaves very few options for black women, especially when they themselves have such high standards.

I'm not offended but it is a limited view, you think of sports men first because that's what is presented in the media, but there are loads of black, male professionals. Let's say its around even male and female professionals, the males are more likely to go out with a female that earns less or at least willing to. The females are not and here in lies the problem. So it's not an issue of downgrading females or upgrading males, there are enough males in that category they just don't want those females.

Just to throw my 2 pence in, I'm 36 and have had a few relationships, usually fairly long, longest being 8 years on and off. When I was in that relationship I didn't have anything, didn't really have a clear purpose, although I had started down the line of entrepreneurship, I was still working in a supermarket. So basically I was attractive physically and maybe in terms of conversation but that was about it. So obviously I wasn't picked for stability, having said that the woman I was seeing wanted desperately for me to upgrade, because she wanted I certain lifestyle. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, why wouldn't she want what she wants? But I felt a lot of pressure because she was very ambitious and I was trying my best but couldn't keep up. To be honest I felt kind of trapped. She hated paying for me for anything btw so that made it more difficult, plus I didn't really want her to pay anyway. It ended eventually, but we still talk and she's a good person. Now since then, I've made more money, got my own place, car etc. During this time I've had about 3 or 4 relationships, what I will say is money is nowhere near a main factor for the women I've dated but if you don't have it I could see it being a concern. It's not necessarily the money itself, I think they want to do certain things with their life and they need someone who can be on that level and is able to do them. So regarding this subject, from my perspective I definitely like a woman who's got something going on, but I think if she's competing with you or she's earning a lot more than you, there will be difficulties as she's in a different lifestyle than you. This is the problem I've highlighted on several posts, if a woman is earning a certain amount it shrinks her eligible pool of men, by her choice. You may say you don't see this, I've got a feeling it might be more prevelant in the black community for whatever reason, but I see a lot of black women having trouble with this situation and I know them personally. I don't think it's good enough to say black men are bad, which is what I hear from black women or there's 'where have all the good men gone', if women are choosing 'bad men' then that's on them. In general, of course men are not going to be attracted to masculine women, unfortunately some women feel they have to become masculine to be successful, hence why it appears success can hurt womens dating opportunities, add to that their new found high standards not based on what attracts men.

Girls are doing much better than boys in general includong stem subjects - https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/girls-get-better-grades-boys-even-stem-subjects-study-finds-n912891 The effect in on careers may not be as drastic, who knows

I always think when people say 'Really?' Its code for im outraged Shes not actually that much of a special case, that guy does a 2 hour stream every night filled with women like her calling in. I feel sorry for the successful black woman in America as well, but there really needs to be a shift in mentality otherwise theyre gonna find themselves stuck in terms of relationships. Having their shit together? yes of course, successful? either way, put it this way if i asked them what they did and they said nurse i wouldnt be like 'nah this aint gonna work'. OK on those fronts usually women are stronger yes, mental is tricky as it has a lot of factors and different aspects, but definitely women tend to have better emotional intelligence, are more likely to be open to real spirituality and are definitely better socially. Even now girls have surpassed boys in school, in most subjects including maths (which is usually said to favour boys 'logical mind'). So here in lies the problem, women are going to have a tough time finding men that are better or even equal to them and the way things are going it will get harder. Not saying its good a bad but attitudes and expectations will have change. Yep and i agree with your masculine and feminine trait list

OK fair play, like i said I do get where you're coming from. There are probably more women than you think that get high powered careers either to attract a high level man or once they find themselves on a high powered career expect a high level man. It happens a lot more in the black community to be honest with you and there a lot of historical reasons for it. This was a viral video that went round a few months ago, but literally women drop into his stream asking for advice everyday - Lol don't be outraged, I can clarify for you. I'm saying if a man chooses based on looks, feminine quality, cooperativeness or whatever his factors are, the womans success is not really a factor in the selection. For a lot of women the man's success or lack thereof, is usually a factor amongst other factors. Strength as in physical strength, yes. Success not necessarily, its more that the masculine energy is more determined to be successful, whatever that means for the individual. If we're talking about men they tend to value success more, which makes sense given the whole history of humans. Also this is not necessarily a good thing if its taken to the extreme, you get workolholism and miss out on life. What would you consider masculine and feminine traits?