Consept

Research it for 5 mins and you'll see the statistics, again this thing of black women not getting married is a recent thing, pre-1960 the marriage rates in the black community were higher in some respects than white people - So here is the first assumption, anytime a woman gets divorced the man is abusive and toxic. Yes I'm sure that some are, but the vast majority aren't and also is it just specifically black men that are toxic? Why are the marriage rates for other races not as low? Also do you think it's just men that are toxic and not women, 40% of domestic abusers are reported to be women https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other (keep in mind most men don't even report it) But yet around 80% of divorces are triggered by women, so I don't think all those divorces are women running away from abusive men, I'm sorry. True but black women were a lot poorer previously when the marriage rates were better, they were also in a lot better shape, so again this argument doesn't track when you compare it history. Having dated and been around black women and whose friends are married to black women, I would say yes they are more dominant than other races. Not all as I've dated some more submissive black women and I didn't perceive them as dominant because they were black. Its not a perception thing its a direct experience thing. There's also the report that I posted giving actual black mens opinions on this. By the way every one of your posts is a way of absolving black women of any kind of accountability, whilst also putting the blame on black men. I don't think this is really the best way to address the real issues going on. At some point black women have to look at what is their part in the reason why there are so many single parent raised kids, that might include but not be limited to, not choosing the wrong man to procreate with. Also your argument that this is all down to racism doesn't track either. Racism has gotten better through the years whilst this situation has gotten worse. So by that trend, even if racism was completely gone this issue still wouldn't be solved.

Many of your points are correct but im not sure about the conclusions you draw. As i understand what you said in the first paragraph is that black women cant be vulnerable enough to let a man look after them and so this explains why many dont get married today. But when you look at stats 62% of black women were married in the 1950s, now keep in mind whatever issues black women have today, they were at least 10x harder in the 50s, we're talking about a time when black people as a whole couldnt go to universities, were discriminated heavily in every aspect of society. So if we follow this as society has somewhat improved (although not perfect) with issues of race you would expect that these numbers would improve, even if we say marriages are somewhat out of fashion at least you would expect if children are involved both parents are around. But this is not the case in 1995 the number fell from 62% to 38%, to compare white married women went from 66% to 59% in the same time period. This has gotten even worse now and i think its around 20% for black women. So the question is why were black women able to let a man look after them when times were even harder but now as times are at least easier than before, they cant? Also another interesting statistic, 4 out of 5 black women are overweight - https://www.wbur.org/commonhealth/2012/11/29/why-are-four-out-of-five-black-women-obese Now there are debatable valid reasons for this but as we've mentioned, this is a factor for mens attraction to women in general. So obviously if women are more attractive they are more likely to attract a partner. But my point in bringing this up is that at some point there has to be some kind of personal accountability taken. As i said youre not wrong about your points but no one is going to change these outcomes except the people involved. I think at the very least a bit of weight loss or exercise on a shallow level or on a deeper level choosing the right men to have kids with, trying to make it easy for the man to be in the kids life even if you broke up with him. Also on your point about self hatred from black men for dating outside their race, for one any other race can date outside their race and it not be called self hatred, but for two black women can be harder to deal with, not all of course but if as a man youve had an experience where black women have dominated you, it can, perceivably, be an easier life to be with a white, latina, or asian woman. As youve mentioned there are reasons for women being like this but either way men might not want to deal with it. Another form of taking responsibility could be to go to therapy. You might be interested in some of the results from this qualitative study on why black women are disproportionately single, they interviewed 100 or so black men to get their opinions, here are some highlights - --Seventy-three percent of the respondents in the gender relations category indicated that the Black woman’s approach to men is misguided, as it relates to patterns of pursuing a man for a relationship and not exhibiting ladylike behavior (e.g., cursing, wearing revealing clothing) (n=2), setting standards too high and placing more value on men who can offer material possessions and status (n=12), engaging in controlling behavior (n=2), lowering their standards to attract a man’s affection (n=4), and not being approachable (e.g., not friendly, bad attitude) (n=10). -- Victor, a 32-year old who had been married for 5 years, agreed: “There’s not really a shortage of men out there. It’s that some of the women are raising their standards so high that they are missing out on that person for them.” Paul, 32 years of age and married for 5 years, concurred: “[Women] look [at] what’s on the outside and not what’s on the inside. They [are] not looking at their character; they [do not] care about looking at what they [are] made of [on] the inside.” Forty-eight-year-old Xavier, married for 24 years, summed up his thoughts with, “You’ve got women who are not married; there’s two ends to that pull. You’ve got [those with] high standards and [who look] down at all the guys, then you’ve got the other end, where, you know, anybody will do.” -- Other men observed controlling behavior among women. For instance, Isaac, 40 years of age and married for 11 years, said, “When I was single, and a lot of my single guys talk about [this], a lot of women that I chose not to marry, it dealt a lot with controlling us…You need to do this, this, this, this, this, that…They wanted to control you and shape you to be what they wanted you to be.” -- In 37% of the men’s views, some independent women believe that they don’t need a man (n=15). Quinn, married for 7 years and 35 years of age, said, “They got [it] in their mind [from] this independence song [referring to song titled, Independent by Webbie, Lil Phat, and Lil Boosie] that they can do it by their self. Can’t nobody do it by themselves.” Ricky, 34 years of age and married for 5 years, agreed: “The role of ‘I don’t need anything but myself’ has been contributing to the fact that a lot of women are looking past the benefits of marriage.” The men also described a lack of knowledge among Black women about how to share the responsibility for managing a household with a mate, having spent years without a partner or a model https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4465800/ Go down to the results and youll get a lot of answers to what we're talking about

Interesting debate that i thought was relevant to this thread -

Im learning as well but looking into it marriage has been on a decline but black womens decline is much steeper. If we just look at how many black women are married regardless of what race theyre married to, it was only 34% (women between 25 and 54) compared with 67% of white women same age, this was in 2006, and the gap between black and white women has grown even more since then, and was declining before then. The amount of black children in a single parent household is 54% compared to white children at only 22%. So these are massive gaps and ive got to say family and home life has to be the biggest factor not only in the success of the child, but mental health, propensity to criminality and many more crucial things. This is not just a social violence issue, although it couldve stemmed from that, although i dont even think thats a good reason as family this is the worst its ever been despite there being a lot more social violence back in the day. https://voxeu.org/article/incarceration-unemployment-and-black-white-marriage-gap-us Im not sure about this, its really hard to quantify suffering in such a way, but natives have had a terrible time, genocide and everything else, and their family structure is still in much better. Black people obviously have suffered, but i think for some things we have to take responsibility, meaning that it isnt black peoples fault but they do have to find a way out of it, one of which being the family stuff which they are somewhat in control of and as we've seen other races have been able to at least have this part of the picture look a lot better than black people. Black women of course would want to better their position but the ones that are successful are already in a good position and are not even considering good men because they dont earn enough. Other black women are choosing men that are not going to be around or are just generally not good choices, having kids with them and then raising the kids as single mothers, this is a massive problem and is the cause of a lot of problems. You can blame men for not being good but the women are ultimately in charge of choosing who they reproduce with, also a lot of men that 'arent any good' probably also came from single parent households, so its a never ending cycle. Yes youre right it is also important for girls to have a father figure, i didnt mean to diminish that, i just think its slightly more important for boys to have a healthy role male model. Yeah its a social policy here in the uk and similar in the us , essentially if you have a kid and the father leaves or was never there, youre a priority council house, youll get rent paid and youll get money for the kids. If the dad is around the family have to cover all these costs, will have to pay normal rent etc. So the results are women having kids with whoever they want regardless of if they can provide in the knowledge that the government will back them. Im all for social policies but we also have to look at how they can affect certain communities and it seemed like this one did. Also sorry for the situation with your dad, its not really fair that your mum didnt care about what he could bring to the table as youve lost out in that. I always think the kids have to always be priority whatever happens. Its because youre mixed race, not to be rude, im also mixed race but the stats that you see are for black women not mixed race. Lighter complexion women are always seen as more beautiful, Beyonce, Rhinana etc are the acceptable faces of black beauty and theyre often made as white as possible in magazines. So yes of course youll get approached more, but i dont think that will be the same for darker skin women. I always got a lot more action and attention than my darker skin friends. I even had a white girl tell me once that her friend isnt very confident, she could get a light skin guy if she was

Fair points and i think they are valid, but i think theres some other issues. So its true black men are subject to this but then they always have been and in fact it was worse before - jim crow, red lining etc, during these times most black people were married to each other in more traditional setups. So we cant say its 100% due to social violence as you say because more black people are able to escape these traps than before but marriages are going down. There is an argument that a lot of single parents were and still are incentivised to be single parents, not in that they have a kid to get benefits, but in that they would get more money if the dad is not around. I myself grew up with a single mum for 10 years before she re-married, my dad didnt make too much money and it was quite clear my mum would be better off financially if he wasnt around as she could get more benefits and also get contributions from him (which he didnt make too many). But i wonder if more single mums would either think twice about having kids with a guy that cant provide or stay with a guy whos not making too much money yet, if they would not benefit financially if they left. Im not blaming single mums for this az theyre doing what they believe to be best, but i think theyre underestimating how important a father figure is especially for a boy. Of course there are situations where the father is just a complete lost cause, but its still down to the mother to select wisely. Another thing to note and not really to compare them negatively, but if you look at other races ie latin, asian, the women will stay with the men through this hardship or even if theyre not making much money. A Mexican guy who works as a gardener trying to get work everyday, will still have a feminine, wife back at home, latin people tend to also have a lot of collective trauma as well. Black women seem to have higher expectations than most other races, im not exactly sure why this is. In terms of dating in general, yes its often noted that black women are the least picked on dating apps but are also least likely to date outside of the race. Black men are pretty high up for other races and they also date have an issue dating outside their race, but when it comes to marriage i think they tend to go for black women. So all this leaves very few options for black women, especially when they themselves have such high standards.

I'm not offended but it is a limited view, you think of sports men first because that's what is presented in the media, but there are loads of black, male professionals. Let's say its around even male and female professionals, the males are more likely to go out with a female that earns less or at least willing to. The females are not and here in lies the problem. So it's not an issue of downgrading females or upgrading males, there are enough males in that category they just don't want those females.

Just to throw my 2 pence in, I'm 36 and have had a few relationships, usually fairly long, longest being 8 years on and off. When I was in that relationship I didn't have anything, didn't really have a clear purpose, although I had started down the line of entrepreneurship, I was still working in a supermarket. So basically I was attractive physically and maybe in terms of conversation but that was about it. So obviously I wasn't picked for stability, having said that the woman I was seeing wanted desperately for me to upgrade, because she wanted I certain lifestyle. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, why wouldn't she want what she wants? But I felt a lot of pressure because she was very ambitious and I was trying my best but couldn't keep up. To be honest I felt kind of trapped. She hated paying for me for anything btw so that made it more difficult, plus I didn't really want her to pay anyway. It ended eventually, but we still talk and she's a good person. Now since then, I've made more money, got my own place, car etc. During this time I've had about 3 or 4 relationships, what I will say is money is nowhere near a main factor for the women I've dated but if you don't have it I could see it being a concern. It's not necessarily the money itself, I think they want to do certain things with their life and they need someone who can be on that level and is able to do them. So regarding this subject, from my perspective I definitely like a woman who's got something going on, but I think if she's competing with you or she's earning a lot more than you, there will be difficulties as she's in a different lifestyle than you. This is the problem I've highlighted on several posts, if a woman is earning a certain amount it shrinks her eligible pool of men, by her choice. You may say you don't see this, I've got a feeling it might be more prevelant in the black community for whatever reason, but I see a lot of black women having trouble with this situation and I know them personally. I don't think it's good enough to say black men are bad, which is what I hear from black women or there's 'where have all the good men gone', if women are choosing 'bad men' then that's on them. In general, of course men are not going to be attracted to masculine women, unfortunately some women feel they have to become masculine to be successful, hence why it appears success can hurt womens dating opportunities, add to that their new found high standards not based on what attracts men.

Girls are doing much better than boys in general includong stem subjects - https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/girls-get-better-grades-boys-even-stem-subjects-study-finds-n912891 The effect in on careers may not be as drastic, who knows

I always think when people say 'Really?' Its code for im outraged Shes not actually that much of a special case, that guy does a 2 hour stream every night filled with women like her calling in. I feel sorry for the successful black woman in America as well, but there really needs to be a shift in mentality otherwise theyre gonna find themselves stuck in terms of relationships. Having their shit together? yes of course, successful? either way, put it this way if i asked them what they did and they said nurse i wouldnt be like 'nah this aint gonna work'. OK on those fronts usually women are stronger yes, mental is tricky as it has a lot of factors and different aspects, but definitely women tend to have better emotional intelligence, are more likely to be open to real spirituality and are definitely better socially. Even now girls have surpassed boys in school, in most subjects including maths (which is usually said to favour boys 'logical mind'). So here in lies the problem, women are going to have a tough time finding men that are better or even equal to them and the way things are going it will get harder. Not saying its good a bad but attitudes and expectations will have change. Yep and i agree with your masculine and feminine trait list

OK fair play, like i said I do get where you're coming from. There are probably more women than you think that get high powered careers either to attract a high level man or once they find themselves on a high powered career expect a high level man. It happens a lot more in the black community to be honest with you and there a lot of historical reasons for it. This was a viral video that went round a few months ago, but literally women drop into his stream asking for advice everyday - Lol don't be outraged, I can clarify for you. I'm saying if a man chooses based on looks, feminine quality, cooperativeness or whatever his factors are, the womans success is not really a factor in the selection. For a lot of women the man's success or lack thereof, is usually a factor amongst other factors. Strength as in physical strength, yes. Success not necessarily, its more that the masculine energy is more determined to be successful, whatever that means for the individual. If we're talking about men they tend to value success more, which makes sense given the whole history of humans. Also this is not necessarily a good thing if its taken to the extreme, you get workolholism and miss out on life. What would you consider masculine and feminine traits?

I totally get what your saying and I think most on the thread do. But I feel like you're somewhat misunderstanding the central point. Ill try and break it down consicely Im not saying women in general are striving for success specifically to get a man. What I'm saying is that if you are successful that doesn't raise our attraction to you, it doesn't necessarily decrease it either, some might like it more some might like it less but it's not a big factor. Therefore if you don't want to cut out most men you shouldn't have high standards on the basis that you're successful, it will be based on how men value you normally. So if you are doing your life purpose because you love it that's great and if I'm dating you and I like you then I'll probably like your life purpose, but if your life purpose was a family and I wanted that too I'd also be behind that. Its not the main point of attraction. As has been mentioned before, some successful women develop masculine traits to get to where they are. This is not attractive. If you are successful without these masculine traits, that is attractive. Side note I'm watching dragons den (English shark tank) the panel is usually 3 men 2 women, all of them are multi-millionaires, I've never once been attracted to any of the women on there, haven't even considered it. But the men on there are usually attractive to women. There's another show 'the apprentice', with a woman on there who's on the panel, also a multi-millionaire, but to me she's attractive, she comes across feminine, caring, good looking. So it's really nothing to do with the success either way from my perspective. Lastly if you are a strong, successful woman, you are free to go for a more caring feminine man, this would make more sense for balance

Its not privatised in the UK and the hospitals were basically over run, all other treatments were getting pushed back etc. Having spoken to nurses in the hospital system who had treated and even caught covid, its hard to imagine that covid didnt have any effect on this. So lets say a virus didnt kill anyone, it could be treated, only thing is it is very contagious so millions get it and you need hospital treatment to recover and even if you recover you may have bad affects with breathing and other things later down the line. In this case do you think it would make sense to only focus on the death rate and come to the conclusion that because its 0 no precautions should be taken?

I think the death rate is actually higher, its said to be between 0.5% and 1% (https://fullfact.org/health/covid-ifr-more-01/) . But either way lets say youre right and its really that low, do you think the death rate is the only thing to take into consideration? Also do you think everything wouldve been fine if there were no lockdowns or precautions taken? As in no extra stress on hospitals, no long covid etc if not what measures do you think wouldve been reasonable?

This is a really good video that covers a lot of topics raised in this thread -

This vid will probably answer a lot of your questions

So do you think theres absolutely no truth in the scientific consensus in the case of Covid 19 and climate change? Also if there was a scientific consensus that agreed with your conclusion on these topics would you accept that?

If you feel like you 'should' do something thats usually a society thing where others have drilled that into you and so you feel bad for going against this. I think in general society, esp western but not limited to that, has really made success, achievement and money making the be all and all of everything, so much so that you can actually be considered less of a person if you dont feel the same way. Its seen as though youve failed not that that youve made a choice. This is the issue with feminism, in reality feminism should be that you have freedom of choice but what its turned into is that women should compete with guys and therefore a woman that chooses a traditional role or is more family orientated is looked down on compared to 'successful' women. What we dont seem to take into account is that being a high powered, highly successful, status driven person is usually not very healthy, male or female and actually would need some psychopathic traits to actually make it to be the ceo of a top company. Think about the amount of hours, sacrifice, dedication all at the expense of everything else in life, this is not what i want to do and most men dont want to do it, but there are some that want to and these are usually men. Women get annoyed because there arent as many ceos but i see it as women just arent as crazy as men lol. Regarding your situation, your brother seems to be someone who fits the bill of looking down on others just because they are not as successful in terms of career. Its a ridiculous position to have as not everyone has the same drives and as i said its the reason for a lot of the problems highlighted in this thread.

By the way this is really healthy, I also think it would be great to have a business with a partner where they handle the creative side and I handle the business side. Like doing up houses and they decorate and I do the deals or manage the construction stuff. In any relationship there has to be balance, if both are creative or both or business minded it's a case of too many cooks. What's interesting is that you thought not being career focused was a negative trait because of the sentiment around you. But in reality what you've said there is probably more healthy in general but also regarding relationships, than all of those successful women you mentioned, probably of you ask them they might tell you they've had a lot of relationship problems. But this is the problem, convincing women to be like men, most of the time it doesnt work

I think this a good take, a lot of people don't take responsibility or ownership for their actions or choices and this of course will have a massive impact when you get into a relationship. Obviously women don't want a guy who just kinda goes whatever way the wind blows him as they want stability esp when raising kids. So yes job and wealth is an indicator of it. The thing is there are always reasons for women's preferences, it's not necessarily or usually the case that they're shallow. But when a guy says women put success in a guy high up its usually taken that he means they're shallow or a gold digger so it's often hard to talk about it, it's been the case in this thread as well. It's an example which I'm drawing an equivalent meaning to what you said when you said a 'woman's success is directly proportional to her looks'. You stated this as a fact and I've shown that it's wrong using actual facts and studies and then an equivalent statement which is just as out there. But I have noticed that you draw your conclusions only from what you see around you, I understand why you do that it makes sense. However if we are having a discussion about wider societal trends it is pretty useless. As I said if you say I know 10 good looking successful women and I say I know 10 ugly successful women, what conclusion are we even coming to? It's just a nonsense argument based on examples we can find to prove our own point. Which is why I looked for more information so we can have a wider view of it. Truth can encompass more than one view, I often find people are not wrong, it's just the data input is limited so they haven't taken in the whole picture and have drawn conclusions anyway. If I was to give advice to you which I'm sure you'll dismiss, it's try and understand where the other person is coming from and how they've got to it before arguing that they're wrong.

It is but apparantly not when it comes to making money. The halo effect works for things like making friends, attracting partners etc. But in terms of making money a lot of studies have shown more unattractive people make more, there's a few reasons if you read the stories I posted earlier

Your taking your anecdotal experience and extrapolating it to make a wider point. I could find 10 overweight and not good looking women who are very successful but it doesn't necessarily mean every woman who is successful is that way. If you then say 'oh but I know 10 women who are good looking and successful', both samples are so small that they don't really help as come to truth that's why it's better to look at a wider scope of society than your own. The equivalent of what you said would really be something like 'a man's physical strength is proportionate to his success' which obviously doesn't make any sense. But the whole thing of if you're not that good looking you'll always be behind good looking people, is again not true and basically incel mentality.

OK so I guess you read the standard studies as well and take them into account. You are aware that there's a scientific consensus contrary to your central points. How do you square the circle of accepting the scientific consensus but also disagreeing with it? Let's 98% of experts say make up the consensus and 2% disagree, does it make sense to give equal weight to the 2% that disagree?

@BadHippie what you don't see is that in this discussion @Forestluv is not saying you're right or wrong. Your viewpoints are correct, they just don't encapsulate the whole picture. It's like your looking at one corner of a painting and saying 'it's a cloud, that's all there is' , but if you stand back and look at the whole painting there's a whole country scene that's been captured. You have to acknowledge that truth encompasses things you don't know and/or don't accept, if you don't you are severely limiting yourself

This could be true for models or jobs that are based on looks but for every other job this is a reach. By your logic, every female in politics, law, medicine, tech should be a super model as these are the top jobs, of course this isn't the case, that is actually the most sexist comment on this thread so far 😂😂 I love you though https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/07/28/opinions/ugliness-premium-opinion-drexler/index.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/really-ugly-people-make-more-money-2018-4%3famp

Yeah the funny thing is that this mindset is actually very similar to a male incel mindset. They believe 'women should just want them just because and its womens fault because theyre whores that are only attracted to chad'. Theres not much difference between 'high value men should want me because im successful and if they dont its because they cant handle a woman like me and theyre weak', both shift responsibility onto the opposite sex because theyre not being chosen. These are extremes, but with the incels they are kind of shunned and looked down upon, rightly or wrongly so, with the females theyre almost pandered and catered to, a lot of people agree will agree with them in conversation, which is why i think it could be a real problem if it becomes a mainstream way of thinking, which i guess it kind of is already. The result is the same though, both groups will end up alone and/or unfulfilled if they dont address their own personal issues.