Sugarcoat

But you being affected by societies conditioning so deeply is becuase you have a brain that is more or less focused outward so focused on the world but it’s the norm so it’s not really recognized

Mm I see. You can have your attention on certain specific things this and that. I usually think in terms of the most basic level as a kind of foundation. So basically how outward vs inward you are which I see mostly as a consequence of how your brain is but it could perhaps change for some people idk for me it has been the same all my life . So the more inward the more attention on yourself and inside world and the more outward the more on outside world and then the other stuff like your desires etc reflect this basic level. But ofc there’s more nuances to this but

But I’m not “holding” my attention there, as in I’m doing it actively. It just rests there naturally by default , why? Because I’m built that way. Then all my interest and value and desire and all come from this. It’s not like “I have desire for this so let me hold my attention here” the attention rested there prior since childhood as far back as I can remember maybe it’s different for you tho can’t know. More nuances for you maybe

I know I didn’t answer very much pertaining to what u wrote specifically. In regards to your first question : no, that is hard 2nd and 3rd: you wouldn’t. For the things you do have desire for, you don’t need to “hold” the attention there actively it just effortlessly goes there, isn’t it? Why? Did you chose how it naturally goes? Isn’t it just how you function naturally that dictates that aka your neurology? it is my experience. In the way that I have a certain way my attention rests naturally, because my brain just is that way .Then I can chose where to direct it to other places by effort but where it rests naturally is where all my desires are related to

I just say your neurology is the basis for how your attention is by default without you trying and desires just reflect this In my experience

@Salvijus isn’t it the opposite attention first then desire comes second so your brain the way it’s built determines how your attention is divided , so if you are more outward , you have that kind of brain, meaning more of your attention out on the world then your desires will reflect it you’ll be the type of person who is more dependent on for example others for your happiness then the opposite if your brain is built in more inward way meaning more attention on yourself then you’ll have more desires connected to that so you’ll be more likely to want your ideal self for example so it’s like we have a default in how our attention is divided we can’t control

I would say yes. Dreams contain me. Can be first pov or third no they seem enmeshed because attention is not a thing its just the sense of me being separate that makes it a useful concept maybe there is not. But it just seems like it that's cool how that happened to you. I believe it might affect how different people without a self talk about the self. If for someone it just drops randomly then maybe their understanding of the self will be whatever they had prior to that. But if you go through a long process off shedding all the layers you understand it differently in my experience the reason for all my shedding of layers boils down to attention on the self, then self-inquiry has came naturally but not extensively, but no I haven't had that singular drop you seem to refer to. Although I did completely detach from my mental self. And maybe there are different levels of "no self" too. For me the most extreme seems like someone like Jim Newman for example. I asked one enlightened person online about physical pain, they said "it's a sensation like any other, there is no rejection of it, desire for it to go away, no discrimination against it". That's another example of the deepest level, its to me is like walking dead. So wherever you are maybe is like a level above. Then where I am would be one level above that. Then the average human one level above me, I don't know tho. Its hard for me to pinpoint sometimes "am I like this person but it just expresses itself differently because of brain difference" I feel like this is possible as long as there is any sense of a you as the body. when I had a fixed mental self, for example I remember I had this mental identity of myself as being socially awkward, then this could happen in regards to that. altough there was a period after my dissolution of the mental self which I could still experience this fear, like there was residues of those old identity patterns. but the way it expressed itself was radically different, it was like directly in the body, and was quickly dissolved because no fixed mind was blocking it kind of. basically what you describe sounds to me more typical to how it is when one has a fixed mental self. Now when I have dissolved that fixed mental self, but I still sense myself as this body, above scenarios can happen to me still in regards to physical pain.. which it does... can't see how it wouldn't unless you reach the walking dead level like Jim Newman and such maybe it would express itself differently for you tho, hard for me to even define "your" level. I mean seeming to be here as located in my skull i find what Jim Newman says about how the self is this physical tension in the body that creates the sense of im here and then the belief of that. I think it's quite accurate description where im at. It seems to me different than saying it's imagined. what you say as this imagined entity sounds to me like the fixed mental self which I have dissolved fully already. I dont know for sure tho if youre referring to that. I can imagine myself in my mind still tho. I wouldn't say the sense of me located in my skull is imagined in that same regard. If it were, couldn't I see how its imagined in the same way I could see my mental self and dissolve that, hmm.... okay i understand what youre saying here and I would agree the only thing I would question is that last part where you say once you stop imagining, yourself , the self stops appearing. idk about that one. I know ive said this before. I still feel like it's more that I experience myself as in the body, and believe im here, and this is what makes it possible for me to imagine myself and believe it represents me. . So me being in the body the basis, not the thought. I could investigate this more ofc but by now I feel its more accurate to my experience . did you come to that conclusion by not thinking for long enough then you "dropped" permanently? or

That's the thing, I never manage to pin point myself as some fixed entity or define myself exactly. Im not any sense perception. But somehow I can still "sense" myself. When im thinking, wether auditory or images of my body, I sense myself in it. Yet at the same time I sense myself like I am behind my eyes watching my thoughts. So there being like a division. Ive thought about it beforehow I kinda feel like im both the one who has their attention on themselves, yet simultaneously my sense of self is the object of this attention. But I can't identity one entity . that does make sense. Attention for me seems to require a sense of self, so I am paying attention to something, could be myself When your sense of self disappeared, did you prior to that, go through a gradual process of dissolution, where layer by layer dissolved all the way to zero, or did it just drop one day without going through that entire process? i have noticed in my experience how my mind constructs my sense of time and how my mental self was related to it too. don't know if that's all there is to it though. I can't still wrap my head around that it's all just imagination. How come I seem to be entangled with this imagination? and affected by it. That is also my imagination saying that (which im entangled with) so it's like a loop. I still can't tell if that's all there is to this self tho. yea once again I cannot define myself and say what I am. So I can't identify some fixed entity located somewhere. I can't place my attention on it like an object in my experience. I notice how my mind is always referring to me or imagining me. So its like it is pointing to a me here, but simultaneously I am the thinker, and this is almost constant so it does maybe make a bit of sense in how it could be thought based, imaginary. I feel like im very open minded and can understand concepts well but that it could penetrate this seemingly constant sense of me is mind blowing to me the belief thing to me is still puzzling. I can be open to the idea that there can't be an actual self, and I can understand it conceptually perhaps, but it doesn't seem to me that I believe I exist, I just "seem" to be here, if that makes sense. yea I can see, this does apply to my experience somehow . But still it just "seems" like I can imagine myself, even if it might not be actually true, not that it seems that I am the literal thought tho. Do I believe that I can imagine myself? is that the cause for this ability, and thus it creates this sense of self? that is still what puzzles me, this belief thing, how could I realize that I can't imagine myself? I would have to see that I don't exist at all, it would have to drop, Yet if this self is the very imagination, then the imagination would have to drop, but then if I start to think again after a while suddenly im imagining myself again, and come back to existence, so I would have to see how I can't imagine myself, thats what it boils down to. kind of what you're saying ? it is something else........

Yea I agree that the only way to perceive yourself in the past is through imagination in the present. I meant that it is the sense of separate self in the body that is the basis, that makes it possible for me to imagine myself in the past or future, my sense of self projected into thoughts. Not that there is two me, but my attention can be absorbed into thoughts of me in past or future, but it all depends on the sense of me in the body. So if that would drop, then maybe I can imagine "me" in time but there's no sense of me in the thought. Maybe that's how it is for you? you can imagine exactly what I can but just no sense of you in it. you say "belief" a lot when it comes to the self. But where does that belief come from? Some speak as if we are taught that we are someone. Like our identity is created because we are referred to by our parents and are taught duality. But isn't that secondary, like at the core, is this sense of separation and the sense of im separate, which is just this sense that appears, and the belief and all else comes from that? im not sure but lets say I was born isolated from society and language, I can't know this, but im guessing id still feel like this being behind the eyes and maybe id be able to imagine my body and voice and sense myself in those thoughts, not that it matters for my situation but just to make it clear what I mean by it seeming like this sense of separation just appears and then belief and all else comes secondary I can't define myself without thinking no that's right. And most of my thoughts are of me in past or future yea. I can't really say what I am. It is hard to pin point, I can sense myself, so for example as im writing this I can almost sense myself in the voice in my mind that is reading this. My mind will say, it seems like I am here somehow behind the eyes. but where does that ability come from? isn't it possible for me to imagine myself precisely because I sense myself in this body, like I said before mm ive had a lot of loosening myself, and like layers peeling, done some meditation too so I can see its potential role. Never has the "whole thing" dropped tho. this ties back to my point about belief not that I need to, but that it seems like the almost constant frequency of thoughts are because there is a sense of self because a lot of thoughts are fear based or related to a kind of unease in my experience, which all relates to the self, without the self im guessing less thoughts appear? that is hard to say but id say like before, it seems like this appearance of being located behind the eyes separate im open to this. Im really going through it so that's one reason for me looking into this

I think I get what you’re saying. Although I would say that the state I’m in when I don’t think for a brief moment is not non dual in the way it would be if my sense of self was gone. Like I’m guessing it is for you. Not that you said that exactly but something along those lines. Because in order for me to stop thinking requires a certain effort, even if it’s subtle, like placing my attention on sensory perception . It’s still experienced for me like an action I’m doing, directing my attention. I am involved in that as much as I’m involved in the incessant stream of thoughts. One could say that is my mind that is saying that, creating a dual description again, yes it is. But the mind isn’t just describing for nothing. I would say that the constant stream of thoughts is there because there is a sense of self, not the reverse, that the thoughts are giving rise to the sense of self i can for example visualize an imagine of me in my past, and there is a sense of me in that imagine. I wouldn’t say the image created that sense of self, but the opposite , my sense of self is simply being projected into that imagine, so it’s already here regardless if I’m thinking or not. Same with auditory thoughts of my voice. What is left over when I stop thinking? I’d say I’m still here. The thoughts are engaging me, not creating me. So I’d say the self is prior to thoughts. Like this appearance of separation that arises in children . This is my mind saying that, yes, but it’s still not for nothing it’s saying it. All these imaginary dualities are possible because of this one duality appearance of the self that appears in humans, I’d say if it were just about the mind, it would seem to me easier to break through the self. Like if you just stop thinking for long enough somehow it would be clear you’re not there. But why would the thoughts keep coming back constantly? Because there is still a sense of self here to engage. I can’t say I know this. But it just seems to me we’re dealing with something prior to the mind when it comes to this self.

So what you’re kind of saying is, if I for example just stare blankly, so there is no thought for a brief moment (hard for me to sustain for longer), or in the gap between thoughts, then it’s just this one experience , its when the mind starts to thinks, about me for example, it’s how the sense of I is created. And since the stream of thoughts is pretty much constant, it seems like there is always a self there, being pointed to. Something like that?

Imagination is for me thoughts in minds eye and then projections of that . Idk it just seems to me the self is not purely that, not that it’s an actual thing but that the sense of being a self doesn’t depend on the mind so the mind can be silent and all the layers of mental self can dissolve yet it still seems I’m here somehow and can’t be shook

I would say the self is at its core this indescribable (because it’s too direct, no distance too it) contracted sense of locality behind the eyes like those people say. So not imagined (not that it’s real tho) And then attached to this can be a mental self(imaginary) . Because in my experience that mental self can dissolve, and what remains is this thin core contracted sense. I said physical because it’s what makes everything seem solid, like Jim Newman said “the sense of solidity over here gives rise to the sense of solidity everywhere else” or something like that My description or belief that I’m behind my eyes comes secondary to this, not the opposite (the belief creating the sense of self). I can’t identify myself with a location in experience , that sounds like there is two, already a self there that is identifying- but I am that very sense of contracted locality, it’s direct. Then if it’s “real” or not is another thing, but it’s what it seems like for me

I called it an awakening too. Enlightenment for me would be total no self, can’t imagine that. I’ve had dozens of shifts and releases , energetic mental etc,and they all accelerated after the awakening so makes sense what you’re saying there , but I’ve never been even for a moment without a self even if it has been super thin, aka opened all the way , not that I try to do that, but can’t imagine how that happens except with very powerful mechanisms and practices or just spontaneously

Yea. Are you saying the self is a belief tho ? i wouldn’t say that shift in particular was like that For me I’ve had many shifts, some fit that description of yours. they were kind of these layers of mind attached to the self, so one layer dissolving/releasing at the time. But that one in particular was like the last one of that kind, and it was like a total detachment from the mind, a total release from all those mind layers, but there’s still a sense of self left, but very thin. A physical self of the brain in my experience . A self is a self but it’s completely different worlds

isn’t this separate self this contracted “sense “rather than imagined , because even if there is a moment where I’m not thinking there’s still this sense. And then this almost unexplainable sense is what makes everything else seem separate too, making it possible to imagine separation . So it’s more fundamental than thoughts I once had this massive yet subtle shift. It was like my sense of self was permanently detached from my mind, and it was blissful. I don’t know what it’s called. But it’s not enlightenment because I still have a sense of separate self.

Mm I see wym looses the distinctions you imagine about it. From my experience theres a difference between like the brain creates the sense of separation and projects a reality, vs mental projections of the mind that can be added on top of this there can be these layers of mental self, but that’s not all there is to the self, so when that dissolves there was still this thin sense solidity and separation left. Like a speck of solidity that is not attached to the mind. And the outer reality that is left is just brain projection. I personally call this “pure neurological reality “ or just neurological self. If that makes any sense, or maybe it’s just bla bla dual talk to you . because some people clump it all together as just mind, but for me brain vs mind is different, mind for me is the minds eye and then projections of that.. I can dissolve my mind how much I want but this solid center that seems to me of the brain seems impossible

@Osaid does reality loose its 3D depth

I wrote a post in December titled “I am in literal hell” about how I am being forced to build a sense of self through physical exercise from a place of near total dissolution. I wanna write about it again more clearly, although it makes no difference to my situation, so I’ll do it here to not risk being “spammy”. Nobody yet anywhere I’ve written about it has understood what I was talking about. Which is understandable since I believe nobody in this planets history has gone through this. But it is very real and it is still going on. It’s a bit complicated the mechanisms of how it works but at the core it’s about how physical exercise builds the brain so it builds the physical self. The harder the exercise - the more is built. So it is possible to build a strong and stable sense of self from near total dissolution, but the intensity of exercise needed for that is literal torture. Nobody would want to do that including me, but the universe gave me this, what now feels like the greatest curse in existence : a 100% self centered brain. This quality reflects itself in everything about me. Pretty much everything I do is some form of self-concentration or trying to connect to myself. So even writing this is this intense “self-concentration”, sensing myself through the writing. This quality of my brain is the reason I dissolved so rapidly naturally until near total dissolution in November, because the attention is constantly on the I. That was all fine, not too bad. Now that same quality of my brain is the reason I’m being forced to exercise to build a sense of self back up again. My workouts have gotten really intense, and it is still the tip of the iceberg of what I’m about to endure. It is impossible for me to not workout harder sooner or later. Im somehow supposed to go through torture and come out on the other side as this stable connected self. What happens is that after a workout my sense of self is slightly stronger and stays stable and “connected” for maybe a day or two, but then it starts to weaken and I loose that connection to myself and reality, nothing makes sense to me and my brain forces me to build myself back up again. I could go in more detail about the processes but nonetheless it is only horrible. In my wildest imagination I couldn’t have imagined it is possible for the universe to construct a human brain in such a way that first they dissolve rapidly only to be forced to build themselves up through exercise that must eventually get absolutely torturous. But it is real and I am living it. My sense of self in this moment is stronger than last time I wrote about this as a consequence of the exercising. My entire existence is the byproduct of my own suffering that is only gonna get worse. I cannot even describe in words how miserable I am. My life has turned into a horror movie that has only begun. My mind cannot possibly grasp that I’m going through this. My entire existence is me waiting for the next time I’m being forced to exercise which always has to be harder than the last one. Every morning I wake up with the grossest pit in my stomach as I wake up to my existence. I cannot cope with this

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you have a point there in how this desire thing works I’ve came to similar realizations The most twisted thing something in me realized is that what I’m going through is precisely the movement towards the fulfillment of my greatest desire Throughout my entire life I have never desired anything but ideal self . All my attention as you said has always been on this desire . this desire is a reflection of this self centered way my brain functions. Throughout my dissolution process, which was extremely rapid, and which my brain drove, not me, which in turn drove my actions - looking back at it now, I can see that I was helplessly along for the ride - The goal of this process was to dissolve the negative identifications and to connect to and become to a desirable one - the ideal self this was impossible - because this ideal self was a mental construct - so it dissolved instead when I had my spiritual awakening the dissolution process continued until near total self centeredness in November- but the process/ I still had the same goal - to find and become this ideal self - that desire never died it just transforms somehow but there wasn’t barely any self left - so this movement towards the fulfillment of that desire instead transformed into this forced exercise thing - because it builds the self. That is precisely the ideal self I have been trying to reach all my life. But it is nothing one would ever want go though i dont know if that made any sense but in short, I function uniquely in this way where everything in me is constantly trying to move towards this ultimate connection in the self, which in turn has always been my greatest desire where all my attention is at, its a constant thing, and this movement turned into this nightmare. this tiny little self cannot fight against the movement of the entirety of my being, because i am entangled with it in the most fundamental way I can sense your sincerity, but I cannot explain this any better. Nothing in me wants to go through this, but what kind of happens is that this very self that doesn’t want to looses its connection, so it ends up happening again to build the very self back up. It’s hard to write this without sounding insane. But my entire life I’ve not really had this sort of stable self that is able to drive and make things change and stuff, there has always been something in me that has been way more powerful and drove this dissolution and now is driving this thing. I don’t have an existence like most, trust me; nothing in me wants this so it’s not being close minded here it’s so hard to explain. But I’ve never really been a person the way other people are people kind of. Like even when I’m writing this it’s like it’s not me writing it’s something in me that has this connection to me and understands things. Like there is disconnection in my sense of self which then reflects itself in these choiceless actions, it sounds freaky but it’s just that I function in a totally different ways than most humans. And now it is my greatest curse.

There’s almost nothing in me that is propelled to interact with anyone so anything I write I will forget very quickly because of what I’m going through. Sometimes while reading there might be an automatic response in my head and why I decided to actually wrote this time eh perhaps the content of it resonated with me more. It’s still not because of what you wrote but I don’t feel a care about it to explain myself. I will forget about all this as quick as I post

It’s still not the reason behind why I wrote that idk what you mean with that second part Yea I know what u mean that third part

Not true but fancy analysis anyways

Yea but still