SwiftQuill

If Greta Thunberg is stage yellow then I'm fucking stage Coral

@RightHand If you truly think "Oh he's a boxer therefore stage red" or "Oh he's a businessman therefore stage orange" or "She's a feminist therefore stage green" that's a very reductive way to look at SD. You can be a boxer and competitive, but be educated, capable of understanding and adopting multiple perspectives, and a rich and multidimensional way of looking at the world, and value your community a lot. You can also identify as a feminist, but be violent, have self control issues (like drugs, gambling, or crime or whatever), have 0 consideration for the poor, and be obsessed with looks and material stuff. I didn't say I understand cognitive development better than ChatGPT. I'm sharing my perspective on the matter after some experiments. And after some exercises with ChatGPT, I disagreed on some of its assessments. In one experiment ChatGPT said Greta Thunberg is stage yellow. Oh, come on. Because she's a leftist who cares about issues in the world?

@SQAAD I'm a fan of Sapolsky. I think he's very intelligent. I watched a playlist of around 20 psych lectures by him. Leo has regarded Sapolsky stage yellow. In my opinion Sapolsky is very much a materialist. I don't think I would consider him stage yellow at least in terms of science. He has deep knowledge of the human mind but to me it feels very narrow to the common stage orange scientist. I've not seen much of him talking about other topics outside psychology, so I wouldn't know. He might indeed be stage yellow in other regards.

I became vegetarian in 2023. I lasted 9 months with that diet until I developed somewhat serious and worrying health issues (fainting sensation, weakness, less strength when lifting weights). What those morons don't understand is that resistance in changing our diet isn't just about "me likes eat meat". It affects your health, your lifestyle, your social life (can't eat in restaurants with friends and family), your time (preparing vegan food can longer). It is an admirable goal to reduce animal suffering. But don't get preachy about it.

To these people, an uneducated, racist, Young Earth Creationist, white male redneck, with a MAGA hat, who works say as a trucker, to them he is a perfect representation of problems on the right. Definitely not a caricature. But if you show them videos of liberal women saying they hate men, or black separatists saying they hate white people, or trans activists saying Joe Rogan promotes "trans ge**cide" by discussing trans bathrooms or something stupid like that in his podcast, to them that's "a caricature of wokeness". Or as Leo says, it's "criticism from below". "Fox News propaganda".

I find it deeply frustrating that opposition to wokeness is often automatically associated with right-wing politics. As someone who identifies as center-left and supports equality for all, including women, ethnic minorities, and marginalized groups, I reject the toxic aspects of wokeness because I have experienced injustices stemming from it. For instance, I’ve been denied education, internships, and jobs simply because I am male. These experiences make me question a system that claims to fight inequality yet perpetuates discrimination under the guise of equity. It angers me that expressing valid concerns about wokeness often leads to being labeled as against equality or afraid of losing privilege. This oversimplified narrative ignores the complexities of real-life situations. While privilege exists in many contexts, wokeness often exaggerates its scope and application, disregarding individual struggles and nuances. I’m also concerned that communities like Actualized.org, including Leo himself, are uncritical of wokeness and unwilling to address its flaws. In this community, criticism of wokeness or the left is often dismissed as right-wing rhetoric, incel ideology, bigotry, or being stuck in a "stage orange" mindset, ignoring valid concerns about its negative impact. Leo and many forum users claim, "If you criticize stage green, it’s because you’re too comfortable in stage orange or not evolved enough," while simultaneously demonizing stage orange. By their logic, this community’s inability to handle criticism fairly would place it below stage orange. It feels like a large part of society doesn’t fully embrace radical leftist ideas yet remains intolerant of dissent. This stifles dialogue and forces people like me, who value fairness and genuine equality, to remain silent or risk being misunderstood. Ultimately, my frustration lies in the inability to critique the excesses of wokeness without being unfairly categorized. I want a world where discussions about justice and fairness are balanced, inclusive, and open to diverse perspectives—not dominated by a single, intolerant ideology.

I mean I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. As someone who has 2 degrees and is currently about to complete the 3rd, I have to say academia has pretty good standards. Then again, I studied in 2 Portuguese universities, not in the USA so I wouldn't know. But I would guess as long as you study anything that isn't "Black Studies", Sociology, "Gender Studies" or "Feminist Studies", in most majors and most courses you will probably get access to decent, accurate education.

@zazen Thank you. I'm glad you understand my point. And if you want something more "productive" on my end, I will say it's difficult. I understand the purpose of DEI and Affirmative action. And I feel that we can't just throw these measures out the window and pretend the free market is fair. I just feel that battling racism with racism and sexism with sexism isn't the best way to go about it. I think under very narrow circumstances we can have DEI. Say in industry X (say Finance) there is a ratio of 50/50 blacks and whites who apply for jobs, with the same level of experience. Yet, whites dominate the market. Under very specific occasions like these, I think DEI is fair. But I think this is beyond policy. I think it's also more cultural. I feel that what we need the most is to remove bias. And bias is a very difficult variable to "detect" in the system. If a certain industry has more males than females, is it because patriarchy? It could be. Or is it partially because females in general aren't as interested in that field? People just need to account for more variables when thinking of these solutions.

By the way, when I refer to these points as "criticisms of wokeness," I’m not suggesting that they apply to everyone who is left-wing. Instead, I’m highlighting patterns that I find are often associated with wokeness as subsets of left-wing thought. I know wokeness doesn’t represent the entirety of progressive or leftist ideology, only a large portion of it. As beliefs like Young Earth Creationism aren’t representative of the majority of people on the right. Much like how Young Earth Creationism is more commonly associated with the right than the left, the issues I’m describing tend to be more prominent within woke circles and are more closely tied to left-wing spaces.

@Emerald 1 - You noticed I didn't tag you. But you didn't notice I hadn't tagged other people either. That's because I'm new to using this forum and I thought clicking only on the quote option was enough to ping the person. This is only the second time I'm using this forum so don't act so surprised I'm not familiar with the best practices. 2 - For the Nth time, I'm not interested in debating the niche topic of affirmative action. Leo and others have hammered on this topic again and again and ignored the main point I tried to make in the main thread. The main point I made is that wokeness has many problems and we should be able to discuss them without being dismissed as "right wing" or some other dismissive terms that you guys like to resort to. 3 - I don't deal with debunkers. If I tell you that I've been denied for certain internships and certain job opportunities because of affirmative action, as in, the ads for those opportunities explicitly said "FOR FEMALES ONLY" I don't see why you insist I must describe these in further detail. When people like yourself ignore someone's main point and decide to focus on this or that detail and start demanding evidence, that's a sign they just want to "debunk" the other person's position, as opposed to try understand the topic. 4 - No, I didn't use these instances as primary evidence that "woke bad". I gave examples. Try to understand that these are mere examples, not evidence. And I tried to get into a little bit of detail on these examples, like why do people reject the notion that maybe women don't like tech as much as men, and maybe that's why there's a gap. Why do we insist there must be a perfect 50/50 male to female ratio in every industry (except conveniently the industries dominated by women)? And as I keep saying, I'm not interested in debating the topic of affirmative action. I acknowledge that sexism exists, and racism exists, and there are studies out there that prove it. But I find that reductive still. Since you guys insist on reopening this thread, I appreciate you either respond to the things I'm saying as opposed to demanding evidence. But if you demand want scientific, peer reviewed, double blind experiments saying that I've been rejected for this or that opportunity, or that there are harmful aspects in wokeness worthy of being discussed, then I'm out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning For those 1 or 2 who posted in this thread with the least amount of interest in my main point, here are more: Wokeness rejects criticism of woke art - Isn't it interesting how shows like Hazbin Hotel, which have a LOT of LGBTQ+ characters, aren't hated? No one complains Hazbin Hotel is "woke" in a bad way. That's because the show is good. It has interesting characters and interesting writing. But if some guy on IMDB criticizes the bad acting and bad writing in a new star wars movies or series, that's because he's racist. Postmodernism deconstructs grand narratives... and writes new ones - Males control banks and corporations and governments and deliberately want to oppress women and minorities and their privilege extends to "men" because let's generalize. Wokeness demonises white people, men, western society, rich people - Have western countries done some pretty bad stuff in the past, and even continue doing so today? Yes. Does that mean all non western countries have a perfect history, without slavery and oppression? NO. Are there bad men out there? Yes. Are all men like that, are even "most men" like that? NO. Do you need me to pull 1000's of examples of people who have posted videos on youtube, or written articles, or written books, that say "white people bad"? Wokeness pretends progress doesn't exist - I've spoken to my parents. I know how women and minorities were treated a mere generation ago. And I've spoken to my grandparents. Women were second class citizens when my grandma was a teen. Are there still problems in society? Yes, there are still systemic injustices. But let's stop acting as though no progress has ever been made. Would someone like me to provide peer reviewed double blind studies on these points as well?

I'm happy you think that those wokies mostly exist on Twitter. Personally I know many people like that irl, which is why I'm particularly pissed off at the ideology. As for green policies, those I find sad. I owned an electric vehicle for 2 years and unfortunately I think it's not the solution. Electric vehicles are pretty much a scam. Climate change and environment is a topic I fully care about and I often wonder what we can do as a collective to improve there. Meanwhile woke Hollywood celebrities who own jets like to say men are the privileged class and selfish for not taking in the wokeness ideology. It's a pet peeve of mine to see that hypocrisy.

Maybe, if instead of male I were female, I would have an easier time dating. Maybe, if I were homosexual instead of straight, I'd also have an easier time dating. Or in making friends. Maybe there are pros and cons. And being white male isn't all pros. And being female/whatever isn't all cons. Maybe if I were black, and rich, my life would be easier overall. Maybe if I were a lesbian black woman... who is a multi millionaire Hollywood celebrity, my life wouldn't be that horrible. This is the kind of relativism that stage Green rejects. (And no, I'm not saying that all "demographics" have the same number of pros and cons, I'm not saying they're equal in that way)

I explicitly said I don't know what it's like to be a woman and I have no clue how many problems they face in life. Not once did I say "Oh women don't have it that bad" or that about any other opressed class. All I did say is that the oppressed vs privileged dichotomy is too simplistic in the stage green worldview. I never dismiss personal experiences from: Women The disabled Ethnic minorities Immigrants LGBTQ And yet, because I'm male and white leftists feel very comfortable commenting on my life and how easy I have it. If people on this forum find what I'm saying that outrageous it shows they're just being biased. My lived experiences, conveniently, because of this ideology, are irrelevant, or "statistically rare", or "not as bad as this other group". Do you see my issue?

I only now noticed this was a sarcastic remark and not a legitimate attempt to engage in the topic. I think that's enough. One of the mods can close this thread or something. I'm done debating here. Happy new year, folks. Do make sure to protect your ideology with tooth and nail.

@Hardkill I'm not an american nor into US politics. What or who is AOC?

And by the way, just to clarify some points from earlier. I never said that "all men are oppressed in the tech market". I never said it's impossible for men to get a job in tech, or that I don't have one in tech. In fact I do. What I did say was that I've been rejected multiple times for jobs (both in tech and outside this one industry) due to DEI/Affirmative action quotas. I'd like to clarify this so that I'm not misconstrued. I appreciate when I say "I experienced [X] in various occasions" that people don't reply with "YOU THINK ALL MEN ARE OPPRESSED IN [X]??? HOW ABSURD!". What I said isn't some ideology or propaganda or a belief system. It's a communication of a fact, of a lived experience.

@Leo Gura yes I've seen those 2 videos. This thread was supposed to be a sort of part 3 in a way, but more focused on communication. I feel you did an ok job handling the topic of those videos but you kind of skimmed over some points I thought were important. Like in part 2 you mentioned "Yeah DEI/affirmative action is good but it can go a bit too far sometimes" you didn't deconstruct it with as much depth I hoped. Great set of videos though. My intention with this thread was specifically to focus on communication. As you noticed from the reaction to your own videos, many people commented saying they find you to be right wing for daring to criticise some of those points (preposterous). There is an inherent kneejerk reaction in left wing communities such that any criticism toward the left is taken in a very hostile manner. And phrased as us vs the right/the alt right/the incels/the whatever. Here's a more succint list of my main points: Opposition to wokeness is õften unfairly labeled as right-wing, ignoring center and center-left critiques. There's a distinction between criticizing the goals of equity policies and critiquing their implementation; while the goals may be admirable, some measures can be overly simplistic and unfair. Wokeness oversimplifies issues, exaggerates privilege, and dismisses individual struggles. Communities like Actualized.org dismiss valid criticisms as ideological immaturity or bigotry. Society's intolerance for dissent stifles dialogue and discourages balanced discussions on justice and fairness.

"Whiny dude whines" "Andrew Tate" "Red pill, alt right" "White male thinks white males are oppressed in tech" "You're giving criticism from below" "I've never experienced the things you're describing therefore you're wrong" "Tell me about your experiences, I'll debunk every single one of them" This is what it comes down to this thread, unfortunately. I genuinely wanted it to have been more productive than this. All of this, because in my initial post I said "We should be able to discuss the negative aspects of wokeness more". We essentially didn't get to step 1 without everyone hopping in to try dismiss my points.

I'm not interested in giving examples and describing these experiences if you just want to rationalize them and "debunk" my points in this thread. I'm well past done dealing with "debunkers". I actually regret mentioning these experiences because that seemingly took the focus of this thread, which wasn't my intention.

THANK YOU that is one of my points yes.

@hoodrow trillson My opinion is that people should be more open minded and tolerant to different opinions. But really it's a matter of healthy communication. This thread is a good example of terrible communication. Everyone here thinks I'm a whiny dude who feels "men are marginalized" when that's not what I said. Here are some of my suggestions for everyone (not just the right or just the left or any particular group): 1 - Avoiding thought terminating clichés. Every time you feel tempted to use one of the following words: incel, racist, fascist, right wing, alt right, bigot, transphobe, woke mind virus, communist/marxist (in the pejorative), radical (as prefix), etc. Just think for like 5 seconds, and see if you have sufficient data to determine they are those things. But as a general rule of thumb, avoid them. 2 - Try to understand, not just debunk. "I'm going to debunk this red pill idiot". Maybe don't. Maybe try to actually understand what he's saying. This doesn't mean to agree with it. Genuinely try to understand. Don't get into "debunk mode" straight away. 3 - Avoid "us vs them" attitudes. This goes back to the thought terminating clichés, but essentially I feel people should try to see individuals mostly as individuals, just another human who is confused or suffering in life, as opposed to "the enemy" (like the white men, or the patriarchs, or the incels, or the whoever is your enemy). 4 - Don't be loyal. Like if I make a post criticising one particular feminist individual, or one left wing content creator, like Vaush or Destiny or whatever, don't immediately jump to defend them. Try to be impartial and listen to the criticism, and afterward reply. Don't just think OH THIS GUY HATES FEMINISTS THEREFORE HE'S A SEXIST (because I criticize one particular feminist celebrity, for instance) just don't. This goes beyond the "left vs right" battle. It's a problem of communication and tribalism overall. It's something I feel we should address more often. Both online and in person, I feel communication is very polluted whenever it has anything to do with ideologies.

My biggest point in this thread wasn't to get into specifics like that. And you are portraying my points as "a whiny dude whines". My biggest point initially was I feel we need to add more nuance to discussing left wing ideas without resorting to thought terminating clichés like redpill or incel to dismiss other opinions. I'm not saying that "men are marginalized". I am saying I've had many encounters with leftists that lacked nuance and had this overcorrection attitude. My biggest argument, truly, is that we should accept more individual life experiences. As opposed to seeing everything through a marxist good vs evil, privileged vs oppressor perspective, which is reductive. That is my main point.

@Nilsi what? So from this thread you immediately assume I'm "alt right", "red pill" and all that stuff about "preaching masculinity"? You know this is actually a great example of my points being dismissed. Care to add "incel", "blackpill", "cringe", and other thought terminating clichés to your list?

@Leo Gura Can you paraphrase the main points I've said in this thread? In an accurate manner? And don't get into the content details of the tech industry or this or that example. I mean the overall point I'm making.

So according to you, because for a thousand years men dominated everything and everyone, today, the average Joe working 60 hour weeks at Mcdonald's, he is part of the privileged class. It shocks me that you fail to see so many problems in the leftist ideology. There are serious flaws in this worldview. And I could go on listing many of them, but if you're going to enter "let's debunk everything you say" mode, I don't see much of a point. I'm a huge fan of Actualized.org, the channel has taught me a lot of valuable things in life. But I do see this loyalty to the left bias, unfortunately. And finally, this is where I should have started this thread: My definition of "wokeness" isn't "the monolithic of left wing ideas". By my definition of "wokeness" I mean the excesses, the misapplications, the reductive perspective of left wing ideas and narratives, which yes, many leftists hold. You shouldn't assume most leftists and stage green individuals are as nuanced as you, Leo.