taotemu

So are you suggesting that altering the chemistry of the brain with a drug can not create delusional experiences? So are all experiences equally true? If this is the case then why investigate anything? Why not just accept my experience of the Earth being flat as the truth? Or my experience as a separate being from everyone else? This just seems so nihilistic. Clearly not all experiences are equally real. There are magic tricks, illusions and psychosis. if we can recognize that delusion is possible, how do we investigate in such a way to minimize those delusions? For me the best I have been able to do is to equate the psychedelic experience as similar to a dream. They can seem profoundly real, yet there is a recognition that they act as pointers to a truth beyond the experience itself in the same way myth does.

I can certainly see the utility of this approach. I just would abandon the creation of a metaphysics based on these experiences. I see psychedelic insights more like dreams or myths. They have tremendous utility and point to truth, but do not pretend to be "True". What I see as such a common mistake is when people take these mythological dream like states and draw conclusions about the very nature of reality itself.

I do apply the same skepticism to the sober state, which lead me to psychedelics. When I listen to Terence McKenna talk about aliens and inter-dimensional beings it seems he has abandoned any skepticism about an experience that is induced by a drug. Reading many of the posts on this forum I feel the same. I have had profound experiences on psychedelics but I remain skeptical about how "real" they were. I know how easy it is for the mind to be fooled.

I think it has less to do with our programming as it is built into be a human. This "programming" has existed pretty much through all of human history with only a few exceptions. Mystics, sages and seers have had to deal with the power of the human ego for eons. Clearly, the ego is the default state of the human condition. I know what psychedelics feel like. I've taken a lot of them. I know they can feel more real than real. But I'm also acutely aware of how clever we are at deluding ourselves. I highly value many of my psychedelic experiences. They clearly have a pragmatic value of making my sober life less anxious, fearful and stressed. I feel more deeply connected to the world and everyone in it. I'm not suggesting that psychedelics can't have a lot of value in peoples lives. But it is quite a leap to go from that to an entire metaphysics of reality based on these experiences. Given how easily we can fool ourselves, I personally need more than profound experiences under the influence of a drug to draw conclusions about the very nature of reality.

The ego is the natural state of mind. That isn't saying it is who we really are, or that it is ever fundamentally real, but clearly the egoic mind is the natural state of the human condition. I don't have to wake up each morning and take a drug to experience my ego. It is the default.

This. Exactly this. 100% this. Psychedelics are tools. Having a wrench doesn't mean I can now fix my car. I need to know how to use it first. The danger of psychedelics isn't that they will physically injure you, but they can be abused and they can cause tremendous confusion if you don't have a pretty good idea of how to use the tool in the first place. Just tripping out on DMT or LSD won't enlighten you. It is such a mistake to think they can. It is also a mistake to think that a drugged state of mind is any closer to reality than a sober state.

I agree with Adyashanti with this one. He isn't claiming that the use of psychedelics can't facilitate a deep spiritual experience. Just that for many people taking these substances, they just aren't ready for the experience. I can only speak for myself. The first time I took psychedelics I was 51 years old and had done a shit ton of spiritual work. If I had the same experiences when I was in my 20's I can honestly say that I was no where near ready to deal with what they can reveal. It probably would have messed me up. I had to wait until I was spiritually mature enough, grounded enough and understood life enough to go there. I would perhaps disagree with Adyashanti in the fact that psychedelics CAN facilitate deep spiritual insights that can be VERY meaningful and positive. But only if the person is ready to receive the teachings. Based on what I see in my own life, most people just aren't there and hence the warning. Life is NOT about just eliminating the ego, but living your life with a healthy relationship with the ego. Immature people will get lost losing their ego once the drug wears off. It can create major issues.

Be very careful with this. This kind of dynamic can create an unhealthy situation.

“People usually consider walking on water or in thin air a miracle. But I think the real miracle is not to walk either on water or in thin air, but to walk on earth. Every day we are engaged in a miracle which we don't even recognize: a blue sky, white clouds, green leaves, the black, curious eyes of a child—our own two eyes. All is a miracle.” ― Thich Nhat Hanh This sums up my take on this kind of thing. People keep looking for special powers or for some super natural phenomenon when simply living exactly the way we are is the real miracle that we have become blind to. It is a miracle that your digestion works. It is a miracle that your immune system knows how to identify and then wage war on invading bacteria and viruses. It is a miracle that we can perceive color and hear sound. It is a miracle we can experience love and connection. It is a miracle we can make choices contrary to our conditioning. Telekinesis has nothing on these things.

I agree. There is nothing special or magical about 33, or 18, or 21, or 65. These are arbitrary numbers.

My life dramatically changed direction at 34 - 36. Changed career, got married, had my first child. i didn't really grow up until about 45. I'm 55 now and when I read my journals from my 20's and 30's I hardly recognize that person.

Cool trip report. LSD is my favorite psychedelic. It is 100% reliable to launch me to another level of consciousness. The trips are almost always amazing, insightful and beautiful. 200ug is about the perfect dose too. Not too much and not too little. For me LSD is more "cosmic" with fractal like visuals. I find myself laughing a lot at the absurdities of my life and I'll feel deeply connected to everyone and everything. Being around other people can be a bit much as my empathy goes through the roof. Mushrooms is more "earthy" with brighter colors and more intense emotions and closed eyed I see mystical woodland creatures. I never see "creatures" on LSD, only sacred geometry and Van Gogh like appearance to reality. I only have one experience with 5MeO, so take this with a grain of salt, but I wouldn't even call it a psychedelic. My experience was more like a dissociative.

If there is nobody else, who exactly are we wanting to take care of the hard stuff?

When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. There is no hierarchy when it comes to enlightenment. The best teacher is the one who can reach you where you are at. For me, these people have been most influential in my life and journey so far. Your mileage may very. Carl Jung Byron Katie Mooji Adyashanti Ram Dass Eckhart Tolle And many other not so famous teachers I have known personally over the years. I am always open to learning from anyone who shows through their actions and being that they "get it".

I can't speak for Leo's experience, but for myself really high doses of psychedelics tends to diminish the insights. I took 7g of Golden Teacher once and it was just too much. 340ug of LSD is the most I have ever taken, it is it on the verge of too much. 200ug is about right for me. 5MeO is another class of drug completely in my opinion. I would classify it more as a dissociative than a psychedelic. I took 20mg and it was WAY too much. If I ever do it again I will do no more than 5mg.

For me I need to have a completely clear schedule for at least two days. No responsibilities to anyone or anything. If I know I have to be able to perform at my job the next day it is just too distracting for me and that becomes part of the trip. I also prefer having a clean environment. No clutter or mess. I have fixated on a dirty carpet once with a mind loop that wouldn't let go. I have done LSD enough times now that I don't feel the need for a trip sitter. Most of the time I'm fine, but having someone sober around to help ground you if you start going down a rabbit hole of crazy thoughts is quite helpful. I usually wait until I feel a calling to revisit the psychedelic space. I use LSD 2 - 3 times a year now. Every time I have taken psychedelics because of my ego, I get little to no insight or benefit from it. Having a clear intent and my mind focused on specific issues or positive intentions helps direct the trip. I do not use these substances as an escape or party drug. It is for deep personal work and I always do them alone or with my wife. If I'm in the frame of mind I want to be entertained vs. I want to self-realize it makes all the difference. That is what works for me. Your mileage may very.

@Goldzilla Do you mind sharing how old you are?

By this logic I was much more enlightened when I was in my 20's and had 6% body fat, could run a 17 minute 5K, could bench press 190lbs and had 20/10 vision. I can tell you for a fact that now that I'm in my 50's, have 20% body fat, would have to train for 3 months to run a 25 minute 5K, I can barely bench press 100lbs and I must wear readers to see anything closer than 3 feet away, I am FAR, FAR, FAR more enlightened now. I think Goldzilla you are deluded into thinking that spiritual integration must look a certain way to be legit. It isn't about being some egoic idea of perfect, it is realizing that life, exactly as it is, is perfect. Integration has far more to do with compassion, kindness and acceptance of our physical limitations than being some kind of superhero.

Our bodies are a meat suit. Nothing wrong with keeping it healthy. But if that is your only focus then when age eventually wins what are you left with?

You don't decide what is truth, you reveal it. Deciding what is truth is pure delusion, narcissism, solipsism, nihilism and all around insanity. Deciding is pure ego. Realizing truth is the only way.

Healthy lungs can take occasional vape without long term problems. Chronic smoking of anything is probably a bad idea. The lungs are the most efficient way of getting something into the blood short of IV injection. No digestion required. But be nice to your lungs because their real purpose to to exchange O2 and CO2, not introduce drugs into the blood.

Music uses very different parts of the brain from language and reason. Because of this it can help us circumvent their influence and so we can have a much more colorful and direct experience of this moment. Music can be profound beyond words.

@Bazooka Jesus So cool! I had a very similar realization after smoking 20mg of 5MeO-DMT. The experience itself was terror with a reprieve of unconsciousness and then profound gratitude for being back. My insight after was the same as yours. WTF was I chasing? Enlightenment? Seriously? With a drug?! How stupid can I be? This is "IT". There is nothing to do. It is all ego chasing after the idea of enlightenment when the real deal is right here, right now. LSD is WAY more profound for me. Cannabis even can get me in a more "spiritual" state than 5MeO. I guess everyone has different experiences with this substance.

Every LSD experience I have had has been different. Most are profound, some are entertaining and a few were terrifying. I've done over 30 trips from 25ug to 340ug. Most of my trips have been 170 - 200ug. Set and setting are EVERYTHING with LSD.

This has been my experience as well. LSD deconstructs the ego in a more controlled and reliable way then 5MeO in my experience. 5MeO is just too much, too fast to do much good. Kind of like slowly irrigating a field, vs. a tsunami that just washes away everything leaving nothing.