Ayham

@Twentyfirst I did state my opinion, I did not make fun, my point was: you were making fun of the west rather than trying to understand their worldview, which is something we all fall into sometimes by accident.

@Twentyfirst Sorry, your post screams unconsciousness and egocentrism, your viewpoint is the not the problem, just the way you are handling it, try to cultivate understanding rather than judgement. I am Arab too but I think this is just silly, there are pro's and con's, Western society did the right step of removing religion, but they didn't put anything in it's place to guide people, so most people are lost, while we are still following religion blindly. The next step for the west is education system and teaching people to make their own principles, values, and meaning, because all those fell apart for most people when religion was removed.

To be honest, as someone who grew up in a Muslim country and family, I would say it is extremely hard to get how complicated, rich and nuanced Islam is to a westerner. Even if you study all the literature, which is extremely dense, complicated, and branched, each sect and sub-sect has it's own philosophers, thinkers, history, and debatable matters, and not knowing Arabic makes it much harder to really get Islam, a lot gets lost in translation, especially the Quran, as well as most literature is not translated to English. Just to get a sense of how complicated Islamic literature and theology, most Muslims nowadays themselves have little knowledge about it, the scholars understand it well though, even the Quran which is Arabic, is pretty hard to get for typical modern Muslims because our language is different nowadays (Shakespeare English vs. nowadays English) In the Islamic golden age, most of this started, each sect and school of thought bread so many philosophers, Sheikhs, and thinkers, each of which have written extremely dense books, usually many volumes in Shakespeare style hard Arabic, and they all fought with each other. Islamic golden age, there was a more accurate map of the world than a few hundred years ago, Algebra was introduced for the first time, they developed trigonometry and refined the decimal system, they had accurate measurement of the earth's circumference, they discovered the circulatory system, they invented water clocks and automata, philosophers like Avicenna and Al-Farabi were as important and influential as Plato, they had extremely beautiful poetry, especially Sufis like Rumi, they established Alchemy, all of this was in 8th to 13th century, where Europe was still in the "dark ages". of course nowadays Arabs are much less developed, because they are clinging to Islam so hard as a dogma, Islam by it's very nature refuses to change, if you change Islam, or try to make it more "modern", you are basically a disbeliever by traditional Islam, most people here are extremely brainwashed, for example, they think doing philosophy or thinking is wrong because it might make you doubt Islam. they either give up on Islam, or make it more developed, which will contradict the original Islam.

That's because there is no such thing as "Islam", it is divided into multiple sects, each of which has many sub-sects There is Sunni Islam (most common, has tendency to turn into Wahabism which is how terrorists happen), Shia Islam (these guys have a lot of different beliefs) These are the main two sects, each of which has their own sub-sects and they have been fighting for centuries There is also Sufism, the spiritual part of Islam, which is more of a "way" rather than a "sect", it is a path that can be undertaken within Sunni or Shia Islam, but most Sufi's are Sunni's, but most Sunni's actually consider both Sufi's and Shia "Kufar" which is the Arabic word for disbeliever that will go to hell Anyways, both Sunni's and Shia's and even Sufi's (much less), have caused a lot of bloodshed, Especially Sunni's I believe (though Sunni's will tell you the opposite, both sides suck tbh so don't listen to either) Turkey is where most Sufi Muslims are, and it is also one of the few Muslim countries that's considered first world, which is why I think it is more peaceful in terms of Islam.

Even Islam believes Jesus will come back, not resurrect though, because they believe Jesus was raised to heaven, rather than died or crucified.

@Leo Gura it sure plays a part, but I think the main reason is the wars and conflict which made development worse, back in the Islamic golden age, Arabs had more accurate maps of the world than few hundred years ago, as well as the founders of many important and main topics in mathematics, philosophy, chemistry, biology. But after invasion of Baghdad by the Mongols, it all dipped, the whole middle east, after it was basically the most powerful in the world. and afterwards, Middle east was divided into countries, so rather than working together, they work against each other, and also of course politics and oil.

Awesome, so it is like 24/7 being on LSD or mushrooms What sort of yoga do you do?

LOL Agreed yes, just take solitude periods of isolation, retreats are enough for that.

If it's not in your direct experience yet, then feel free to call bullshit, but remain open to the possibility. I don't think it's a contradiction, in the absolute level, god is just god. Subconscious and other things come in the relative level, if god has a subconscious then it's something god created out of pure imagination.

@Ulax have you done that? Did you see any behavioural change?

Happy birthday Leo, you changed my life ever since I was 14

@Leo Gura I have really strong vision and motivation and it really calls me and makes me emotional, and I do work towards it. But I still procrastinate and nothing seems to solve that Sometimes I am better, sometimes worse, but overall procrastination is always there

bro i know I am always in a fight with all the distractions and stimuli, I tried every single thing and I am just losing, it is literally designed to be like that And especially us younger folks are affected by this since we were born into this world of technology If only I can fucking do what I want to do

Hear me out, I'm from Iraq, the pinnacle of stage blue, but I grew up with a somewhat diverse family, my father is sunni, my mother is shia, I had extremist uncles and some atheist ones This was rare, most families have one school of thought or religion that they are extremist about and teach it to their children. Anyways so I have left Islam 6 years ago, when I was 11, I kept it secret for years. Though I always debate within my mother's family side, it's usually fun and cool debates, since there's a lot of diversity. Meanwhile on the other hand, all my friends are extremist sunni muslim fundamentalists, it didn't bother me much until recently when I started debating with them, I always tried to do debates in a conscious way, that pushes for understanding, but it got into a low consciousness activity. My friends believe that Sunni islam is the only truth, all other religions and sects are corrupt, I tried to find contradictions or scientific mistakes within their beliefs and the quran in general, they have replies to everything, and I do too, it keeps getting extremely annoying, like I'm not even trying to convert anyone, I'm just trying to show them that they aren't the absolute truth and other beliefs are also valid and could be the truth. One argument that they didn't have a reply to, is evolution, they just dismissed it as "yeah that's just a laughable theory, we don't believe in it" I'm sick of this stage blueness here, there's much more details but that's the idea. I'm just a classical non dualist, who's into Western philosophy and also mysticism I dont know how I got involved in all of this and it's so annoying, the debates aren't stopping but I'm also enjoying them since I'm learning a lot about different beliefs I just can't understand how someone can believe that there is only right belief and all else are to go in hell, and this one right belief turned out to be the one they were born into I never disrespected anyone in any debate or made fun of them, but I just can't get that. Any insights? Have you been in a similar experience? My current feeling is to cut them off, because I just can't take it anymore, they try to push their beliefs on me, they didn't use to do that before I started the debates, but now its unstoppable, it's a good friendship of 3 years. But I also don't have any friends in real life who aren't extremist to their belief

@Carl-Richard I like that, basically new age but more solid and grounded, something that has an actual richness of tradition and a solid basis. it is also interesting to note that due to this fact, new agers aren't able to form organized sustainable communities, they turn corrupt really fast, because there is too much lack of rules, it is not designed to run a society, due to the lack of ethical and moral guidelines, which is part of why guru scandals happen so much lol.

@Carl-Richard LOL, nice move, I suppose I am a new ager then I do think the stuff you mentioned fall into the "woo woo" category, but just like you said, new age takes from different traditions, and it has many sides, so it is hard to define What would you name yourself, if we are playing the names game? @Jodistrict Basically it is also dogma that thinks it's different, through brainwashing, etc. Yet it has the capability to transform into something based on direct experience, which happens by things like, intense meditation, self inquiry, psychedelics, pranayamas, etc. But even after that, some dogma will remain, which is where questioning and contemplation comes in @sholomar This is the correct attitude, I very much agree with you, basically letting people develop and seeing the value of religion, being aware of the spiral, I do think there is a lot of harm that happens by removing religions from society, which happened in the west and that led to a generation with so much mental illnesses and nihilism. This is what Nietzsche talked about by saying "god is dead, and we killed him" , as in we killed the religious values and put nothing in their place, which led to a lost society, therefore, most people who aren't able to form their own vision and principals, will find religion pretty valuable, but it is the extremism that makes me not like it, I understand the way they think and that it is necessary for their development, my post reads of my blue shadow very clearly. This is actually why I wanted to leave this forum a year ago, but I ended up staying lol. Your response is genius, thanks for contributing

@Razard86 damn! What an insightful response, my favourite so far @zurewI agree, the structure of dogmatism is the same and applies to all beliefs, it's just the content that's different I like to think of the kind of beliefs we have here as anti beliefs, like an anti virus, beliefs that are designed to eliminate all other beliefs, including itself, and the ultimate belief of being a separate self or ego But it's still belief no matter what Regarding debates, I think it started as a conscious thing and now it has become a classic "who is right" ego battle , yeah i must stop that lol The idea of introducing them to people from other faiths is nice, I like it

@Carl-Richard to be honest i don't like the term new age, it comes with many "woo woo" stuff, sometimes too much I just like spiritual stuff, and I take what I like from all traditions, including new age -- Got it, so you used to be dogmatic about atheism and that also was what you were born into , nice! I mean I was Muslim by birth, here you are born Muslim and you get indoctrinated with it, my family didn't indoctrinate me strongly, and i got into spiritual stuff when i was 12, so I started questioning religion from then (which was extremely scary due to the indoctrination) Do you know that if I attempt to change my religion in my official documents, i will get excuted? Islam is forced here, you are born and what you hear is "we are the only true religion, never ever dare question it or think it's wrong" and everyone around you is the same I just got lucky by not having that sort of parent's and learning English by watching online content in English, which allowed me to find different religions, science, and spirituality from an early age, then I got into leo when I was 15 and went through a dark night of the soul period Though I'm aware that the same thing I criticise religious people could apply to me, in the sense that I'm also dogmatic and 100% certain that religion is wrong , or that spirituality is right I try my best to remain aware of that and never be too sure of anything

@Ramanujan hmmm, well it's not as bad as it seems, well for me at least since I don't know what's it's like somewhere else, but I will mention some points that come to mind: It's extremely hard getting a government job, no matter how cool your degree or experience is, you need to either be a doctor or an engineer, or know someone in the government Corruption is everywhere, you can't do anything legally without paying some money to every person you deal with, usually high amounts You can literally go to a pharmacy and buy almost any type of medicine without prescription You will get killed if you speak badly about certain government figures If you are gay or atheist, you might get into serious trouble, for example I lied about being a Muslim for years because my school would have kicked me out Lands and houses are extremely extremely expensive, you can work your whole life to just build a 100 meters house, this is new because of inflation We have laws, but those laws are overridden by families, or like tribes, everyone has a last name right? Well here, your last name indicates your tribe, which aren't tribal, they are modern people, but if you get in legal trouble, most people will settle it by tribes, each person would call their tribe, then they either do a mass shooting at each other, or the tribe of the person who got treated badly take a shit ton of money from the other tribe Temperature reaches 50 Celsius in summer Government doesn't give electricity all day, maybe like half, so each district have their own power generator, which isn't as robust as one done by the government so it also shuts down sometimes We do have modern places, arcades, clubs, martial arts places, gyms, cafes, malls, high end cars, restaurants, and a lot of other stuff that's actually really fancy A lot of people are religious fanatics, but the new generation has good amount of atheists or balanced religious people, but it's usually based on a whim, an iraqi atheist most likely argument for their belief would be "I don't feel like praying 5 times a day therefore i became an atheist" There's a great sense of community, people here live with their parents, it's a norm, the woman gets married and moves in with her husband, husband usually lives in parents house, though this is also starting to change Most people here don't know English except basic school grammar, like no ability to speak or understand Normal have shitty teachers, though there's better schools, like distinguished high schools, which require an Iq exam and high marks to get into (this is the one I go to, teachers and students are better, all students are nerds basically, we study in English though somehow the teachers and most students don't speak English) College is completely free, but it's based on your grades in 12th grade, which I'm in right now, most people here aim for medicine, the asian stereotype does apply to us as arabs, you need to get like 99 average to get into medical school, and our studying and material is extremely big and hard There's also a lot of extremely smart and educated people, authors, professors, content creators, etc. but deffo not the majority Getting a visa to Usa or Europe is pretty hard Men here are more in control in relationships and family than in western culture, for example, the man's permission is needed for a lot of legal things for the wife, children, etc. and also a wife can't get divorced, it has to be his word, also it's pretty regular for husbands to hit their wives here, husbands usually are the providers, and wives are usually well, housewives Most families here have family members who live outside of iraq, in recent hard times in the last few decades, a lot of people have fled, so those people also come to visit, i have like 1 uncle in Sweden, 1 in usa, 2 in Uk, and 3 aunts in the usa, one in the uk, so my cousin's are more like westerns, though we meet once every few years Also recently sexual stuff has been getting more okay, but the norm is still sex after marriage, so people here marry too early Yeah this was long, this is how it is in the capital at least, other placee are probably less developed (in a spiral dynamics sense)

@Davino that is certainly a plan I am determined on doing on the future, what cultures have you lived in? @Ulax debates are usually low consciousness yes, I am trying my best to not be apart of that too and maintain respect, like I never insulted or made fun of any idea or person during a debate, but there is this sort of building up tension in both parties lol. @Husseinisdoingfine I agree, Muslims seem to ridicule all other beliefs, "oh Christian? deluded fool" "another sect? what corruption of Islam" "atheist? lol you believe we are monkeys" I mean to an extent, everyone is dogmatic about their view, even us non dualists, but at least we are aware of that and do our best to not take it as dogma, and we don't force anything on anyone, even though there is no belief to force, since direct experience is king rather than belief in non duality, but some people still take it as a belief. they also seem to bend science to claim that Islam knew about a specific phenomenon which science just discovered now, which is supposedly a miracle, even though the Quran is so easy to interpret in different ways since the language is vague. and they claim they are the "only religion who preaches true monotheism of god", just because Christians have a trinity, or Hindus have avatars of god, therefore they worship more than one god, they reject the idea that god can take any form. @Salvijus I totally agree with this, it is usually an ego battle, maintaining awareness and mindfulness during that is tough but would be very fruitful

@ExplorerMystic thanks for sharing, Sufism is great yes, I am aware of it, haven't been too deep but I like Ibn Arabi, My friends brushed it off as "corruption of Islam" and "shirk" I don't know about Ahmed Hulusi, but he seems promising, I will for sure check him out, whenever I mention those people to them, they don't even regard them as Muslims They are particularly fond of "Ibn Taymiyaa", and if you know anything about him, that says enough about the people I am dealing with. I noticed that to probably understand the complexity and nuance of Islam, being an Arab is almost necessary, which is why I suppose most people on the forum here haven't gotten into it, even the mystical aspects are hard to understand fully without actually living and being in a Muslim culture. I agree that figures like Al Hallaj made a bad rep for Sufism, and that most Muslims believe Allah or god as a seperate entity, I tried to explain Al-Hallaj's situation, but they still regarded "wahdat al wujud" or "unity of being" as shirk and corruption of monism (which is most central to all of Islam), to me it is the purest form of monism. I liked your reply, if you have more to share ,please do

Thanks for sharing This reminds me of a technique in Christian mysticsm I believe, where you choose any mantra, and chant each syllable with heartbeat, you do this for 20 minutes (vocalising the sound, even if very low so that only you hear it), and then your whole day will be meditation because the mantra will repeat naturally with your heartbeat whenever you are aware of it, so the mantra will be in your head all the time. For example: "om nama shivayah" You chant om, then na, then ma, then Shi, then va, then yah, each with a heartbeat Or you can say any mantra from any tradition or religion This is called "prayer of the heart"

So I discovered this thing and I have been trying it for a while, it is much more powerful than a normal commonplace book for the following reason: the purpose is generating heavily interconnected insights, not saving information. So here is the system: you have three main categories (fleeting notes, literature notes, and permanent notes) Software of my choice is obsidian Fleeting notes Notes you capture on the phone, on a notebook, etc. these are quick insights, thoughts and ideas you quickly capture throughout your day Literature notes These are your notes about a specific source (video, text, article, podcast, book, etc.) Permanent notes After gathering enough fleeting and literature notes, you can process them whenever you like, whether immediately or once a week or anywhere in between, into atomic notes, meaning they contain one idea and an atomic title, meaning the whole idea of the note is contained in the title, and you add links back to the literature or fleeting notes the note came from. Each note will begin spawning many connections, your insights will be consistently used, reused, refined and connected to each other. And in the end you can add a sort of projects folder, like using your permanent notes as a source for writing specific things. this system to me is best for generating insights and for maximum understanding, but you can't keep everything about your life in it, so for me, a mix of this digital system on obsidian + physical journal = all set

@BojackHorseman I like ennio nimis book the most, i dont like stevens, ennios book is available for free online. After learning from ennios book and practicing for a few months, read santatagamanas books and practice that way, that's how i would do it

It's a kink thing, as a kinky person, it would turn me on (I'm weird)