Bobby_2021

I think a lot of legal stuff easily qualifies for slavery. It's insane the levels of slavery we have given a pass to.

This is not the point of contention with the original post. The point of contention is that "Western values result in less enslaved people". What I am asserting is that you need an awful lot of slavery to sustain western values. They simply happen to be across the ocean. First of all, you got to stop using outdated terminologies "1st world" and "3rd world". There is something called business and trade by which exchange of knowledge and technologies would have happened anyway. Engaging in business and trade with other countries is not a "different pathway". China has built a unique system for generating economic affluence without significant wealth extraction from elsewhere. You cannot brainwash and bullshit your way into trillion dollars economies. They didn't use western values of free market or private property at all. It's a one time magic of central planning done right.

Here is what Claude thinks of the blog post: I'll provide a careful analysis of this post, which touches on complex topics of global development and cultural values. The post uses the Global Slavery Index data to make several arguments about development and cultural relativism. While the map does show concerning patterns of modern slavery, we should examine the underlying factors with nuance: The post makes some valid observations - modern slavery is indeed a serious human rights violation that causes harm to both victims and societies. The data does show higher rates in certain regions. However, there are some problematic aspects in how the post frames these differences: 1. Development is multi-faceted and influenced by many historical, economic, and social factors. While the post acknowledges this somewhat, it oversimplifies the relationship between development and human rights outcomes. 2. The post correctly critiques both cultural relativism that might excuse human rights violations and racist/ethnocentric interpretations of development differences. However, it could better explore how factors like historical exploitation, colonialism, and global economic inequality contribute to current conditions. 3. The framing of "Western values" vs "non-Western values" creates a false dichotomy. Human rights, including freedom from slavery, are universal values that have advocates and violations across all societies. The data itself is important for understanding where interventions are most needed to combat modern slavery. However, addressing this issue requires understanding complex systemic factors and supporting development while respecting human rights and dignity universally. Would you be interested in exploring what factors contribute to modern slavery and what approaches have been effective in combating it? ------- Bobby: Is it not the case that western corporations are the beneficiaries of slavery? So is it truthful to argue that western values result in less slavery? Claude: This is an excellent and important counterpoint that reveals a significant flaw in the original post's argument. Let me expand: The modern slavery system is indeed deeply connected to global supply chains that often terminate in Western corporations and consumers. Some examples: - Fast fashion companies benefiting from forced labor in textile manufacturing - Tech companies whose supply chains include cobalt mining under exploitative conditions - Seafood industries relying on forced labor on fishing vessels - Agricultural products harvested using exploited workers So while Western nations may have lower rates of slavery within their borders, they are often the end beneficiaries of exploitation occurring elsewhere. This creates a form of outsourced slavery, where the economic benefits flow to Western corporations and consumers while the human costs are borne by people in other regions. This also points to a deeper issue with the original post's framing of "Western values." If we look at actual economic relationships rather than just geographic incidence, Western economic practices often perpetuate or incentivize exploitative labor practices. The lower domestic slavery rates in Western nations don't necessarily reflect superior values, but rather: 1. Greater wealth allowing exploitation to be outsourced 2. More sophisticated legal and economic structures that obscure exploitative relationships 3. Historical advantages gained through past exploitation including colonialism A more accurate analysis would look at the entire global economic system and how different regions are positioned within it, rather than treating each nation's slavery statistics in isolation. What are your thoughts on how this global dynamic should affect our understanding of responsibility and solutions for modern slavery? --------- Bobby: Do you consider it west bashing to make the case that west has done significant degradation to the development of the countries of global south which the post overlooks? Claude: No, discussing the historical impact of Western colonialism, resource extraction, and economic exploitation on Global South development isn't "West-bashing" - it's engaging with documented historical realities that continue to shape global inequalities today. The original post overlooks crucial context about how Western development was often achieved through: - Colonial exploitation and resource extraction - Forced labor and slavery - Destruction of existing economic systems and local industries - Creation of dependent economic relationships - Installation and support of authoritarian regimes favorable to Western interests - Structural adjustment programs that enforced harmful economic policies - Debt mechanisms that extract wealth from developing nations These aren't matters of opinion but historical processes that help explain current global disparities. Understanding this context is essential for: 1. Accurately analyzing current development challenges 2. Developing effective solutions that address root causes 3. Creating more equitable international systems 4. Acknowledging ongoing responsibilities to address historical harms The post's framing of Western "development" as simply reflecting superior values ignores how that development was achieved and maintained through systems that actively underdeveloped other regions. This isn't about assigning blame but understanding actual historical processes that shaped our current world. So critiquing this omission isn't "West-bashing" but rather insisting on a more complete and accurate analysis of global development patterns.

@Something Funny Read the blog post again. Leo asserts that western values will result in less slavery. If China/India outlaws slavery Tommorow US corporations would go bankrupt. Western values not only use slavery, but also want it for their survival. Engage further only if you seriously want to get to the root of this.

I just told you we are going to bootstrap and hit the market directly. If that's hippe for you then so be it. Also everything is 100% Ethical as it can get. These billions dollars valuation for the low life AI companies, that never made a penny in profit, are a deal with the devil. Why would I even find this appealing.

That IMF stat got the same vibe as "China is the biggest cause of carbon emissions in the world. China baad..ooh no climate changeee". I am like, bro the they pollute the environment to make the phone you are using right now and the rest of the world for that matter. You can offset your responsibility on them since it's not happening within your borders. This is an integrated global economy.

Yup. I see it every day. The thing is when your country is composed of ethnically homogeneous population, governance is far easier. In India there is far from the case. Language, culture, region, sects, caste, sub caste, sub sub caste, and all sorts of ideologies makes it a nightmare to govern. No small feat. The IMF banking system is peak financial slavery operating at international level. Hope you understand how that works. This is not west bashing. I could easily return strawman points as if you hate global south but that would be plain reductionism.

Technically I already have one, except for the valuation. Along vision, intelligence and the work ethic and proper moral ethics. But it's not like we have a remote chance of getting funding from these sharks, and even if they do they will burn it to the ground. We goona bootstrap like Gs.

Already addressed that here. Unfortunately I can't fit the entire explanation into a single post. I would need a whole thread for this. If you want to understand the system, then you need to first step out of it. Most people can't do that and it's fine. The frustration with the system is totally understandable. I have already said that caste system should be scrapped to oblivion. But the natural development of the Indian psyche was ransacked by the endless looting, slavery & theft enacted by the British empire. But hey don't let that stop you from enjoying your plausible deniability.

Gates is definitely an incredibly smart man. He was one of the people who knew how to code at a time most people hardly knew about computers. When I was doing coding job I noticed that people who were lucky enough to have a laptop or a computer while growing up were significantly better at their job than someone who got laptop later in their life. It's not merely that they are just too smart or worked hard, but the right combination of all of those including having support of parents. They are not inherently better at value creation.

Caste system served the primary purpose to entrust the responsibility of certain jobs to sections of society. This was an efficient way to organize civilization at the time. Because if your father was an expert carpenter, then it makes sense that your son also becomes that way because of the ease of knowledge transfer. This would also mean those who were entrusted to the low status jobs were treated with immense disrespect. Caste system has no place in the modern world. But you have to understand India for what it is. It is a sophisticated culture. India managed to evolve all these thousands of year without using the brutal chattel slavery like the west which was orders of magnitude more brutal and oppressive considered to the caste system.

Bernie could have swept up a good share of MAGA rednecks votes too. Missed out on that. Instead Trump cashed in on plenty of blue votes. Gen z who used to be a blue vote bank felt like the economy is too harsh to them and hate voted Trump to victory.

@Leo Gura I have zero interest in changing your opinion. I only care to resolve factual errors and internal contradictions. Totally respect your decision to not engage further. Your point on Ukrainian Sovereignty is well accepted because it's a solid position with no internal contradictions. --- I really hope Trump is joking on the Tariffs front. This could have deviating consequences even for the global economy as a whole as we aren't ready for it.

@Leo Gura Let's forget everything and zoom out for a moment. We agree that Ukraine sovereignty is important, given that Ukrainians exist in the first place. The path we are treading right now is leading to a irreversible demographic collapse. Do you feel any moral responsibility to take actions to save Ukraine? What's the end game here?

The western woke left does a lot of white man bashing which is an emotional and subtly racist response. But that's not the relevant point here. The point is that white men managed to get the fruits of third world labour and siphon off their wealth into first world countries. Western companies exist solely because of slave labour from the global South. It's pivotal to the profit margins of the US corporate giants. Apple will not exist if not for the slave labour from India/China. Western values are not what creates high profit margins. It's good old slavery. The exact process of wealth extraction is too sophisticated to be explained but basically it's just that; an elaborate extraction scheme.

I am not pulling these numbers out of my ass. These are from pro western and pro Ukrainian sources that also have connections to Russia but not affiliated with the govt. Meduza is banned in Russia deemed as a foreign agent. And British Broadcasting Corporation has no incentive for posting misinformation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War

The point is that Ukrainians are NOT willing to fight for "their nation". They are kidnapping people from the streets and sending them to the frontlines. It should be obvious that they are not willing to fight. Desertion is also sky high. This is a war to advance western geopolitical interests and the people of Ukraine has nothing to do with it. You do realize that there are people on this form trying to escape forced conscription. I highly doubt he wants to end fair elections in Ukraine. That's a stretch. He wants a friendly government in neutral Ukraine, mostly. Put this in context of the countless coups of democratic leaders the west has done. Including the one in Ukraine. Would that count as tyranny?What moral high ground does the west have here? Consider this: The empire of west is undemocratic and tyrannical as opposed to western values. You are saying Ukrainian Sovereignty should be valued above Russian Security interests. Although I disagree, because this is not characteristic how geopolitics works, at least there is no contradictions with this view. I believe security and safety is the primary interest of any state. And all other states should work together to ensure safety for all states. Safety is the actual foundation for Sovereignty. I agree that Zelenskyy was fairly elected. But the real question is if he is allowed to act with Sovereignty. This war would have ended in April of 2022 when Zelenskyy offered neutrality in the talks held in Turkey. But Boris Johnson and his envoy told him to fight on and the peace talks were botched. And no he is not popular. And the corruption in his government is staggering. And his term is over too. But I don't blame him. He doesn't get to act with Sovereignty. He is not allowed to make decisions in the best interest of Ukraine. If your Sovereignty is violated once, then it will send you on a chain of downward spiral of further corruption.

This. It would get significantly worse before it gets better. The collapse of an empire is ugly, nevertheless long overdue in my opinion. All empire are unsustainable, but the beneficiaries of it will act it it isn't. You are totally right on this front. See here is where the subtle contradiction begins. The Russo Ukrainian war started immediately after the CIA orchestrated coup of the Ukrainian government in 2013-14. Russian intelligence knew this coup and started annexing crimea. You say coups are wrong, but support a war that is the direct consequence of a coup. How do you square this?

@Leo Gura slightly off topic but very important. Why do you give a pass to America's military interventions, coups, and sanctions enacted aboard in various countries? Sometimes it looks like you even justify and defend them, unlike the Israel Gaza situation. If you don't condone them, then make it clear you do so.

I agree that things are about to get worse. Because that's the natural trajectory. Not because of Trump. Trump or anyone else for that matter has nothing to reverse the inevitable trends.

I would. Regardless of rent. Would try to uphold Truth as much as possible in this journey too. Most people don't want that and it's okay.

Media used to bring the news to you. Now you get to what is happening in the world almost instantly on your phone. So what else is the media supposed to do. They start their big brain analysis.

Here is predatory neoliberal financial slavery in a nutshell. Student loans. Fundamentally the free market becomes a facade when there is a centralized banking decides who gets credit. The market isn't even free. If banks stop issuing student loans, then students wouldn't have money for college and the colleges would drop their fees. Instead they inflate the fees beyond reasonable amount and give "freedom to college" in form of loans. Financial enslavement the moment you barely become an adult. Here is what claude thinks.

I would say the established elites are more likely to appoint hollow plebs in positions of power who would be obedient talking heads for them while actual elites call the shots behind the curtain. This is why they can't really win in the first place. You can't outsource power, without significant chances of crumbling. Regardless, appointing plebs in positions of power is a problem that plague either side. Not necessarily a "new elite" problem. Either way no pleb would survive the intense stress in these positions of power. The stress/risk tolerance of Musk is superhuman. The elephant in the room is that all elites will eventually be replaced. Either you can gracefully step down or put up a fight. Most elites are from high standards of living. The will to power is in them. And they don't have to worry about paying rent while pursuing power moves.

Only Marxists promise a flat hierarchy. Other Populist ideologies are looking forward to replace the elites, eventually. They don't hide this. The Populists believe the elites no longer care about them. The first responsibility of the Elites is to make sure that the bottom of the society is pacified enough. Else they will be replaced. Nothing new here. Power corrupts and crumbles eventually. Old Elites will be replaced by new ones.