Water by the River

hach. When talking of the Absolute, it needs to be recognized "how far" concepts and pointers "work", and where they all fail at the Infinite Absolute. I am not exactly against using concept as pointers/concepts/practices up to a certain level (which you can see at the length of some posts of mine), but I am aware where all of that has to stop. One can never become IT and remove the delusion/ignorance when one is loaded with so many concepts about the Absolute, which all limit the Infinite (by definition). It doesn't work that way. I didn't write that self-contradiction. When communicating on a conceptual level, it is better to stay coherent and logical, and avoiding self-contradictions. One can communicate in an unlogical way with concepts, or in a logical way. Short form: If using thinking & logic & concepts, think straight & logical. And at a certain point approaching the Infinite Absolute don't let the cup overflow: Selling Water by the River

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concept https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstraction "It [Solipsism] states you are ..". If that is not a concept I don't know what a concept is. "Solipsism" is a concept, "you" is a concept, "mind" is a concept. The two sentences above are conceptual, consisting of concepts. And that is why these two sentences of yours are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-contradiction But hey, don't want to spoil your gig. You are a perfect example towards which certain teachings lead to. And the originator of these certain teachings (Solipsism) apparently doesn't object the outcome of these teachings. Like you flooding the forum with conceptual ideas like Absolute Solipsism (loaded with ego & separate-self). Actually, it is not so difficult: True Self = Infinite Impersonal (!) Suchness/Being/Reality/Consciousness: Solipsism ok. But that takes the death/transcendence of the separate-self/separating ego. Not blowing it up to infinity-proportions (God-ego). And even then, what is the use of talking "Solipsism" to other un-enlightened egos, when it mainly tends to blow up their obstacle towards true liberation, which is their untranscended separate ego/separate-self, to God-Ego size? False Self = separate self/ego/self-contraction/all of these concepts: Solipsism = madness. It depends on the mindstream claiming Solipsism. If done not from a truly enlightened perspective/mindstream, it is just ego-inflation: Ego = God. Which is the equivalent of shooting oneself in the knee and embarking on the Enlightenment-marathon of getting rid of anything separating/ego. Quite a show, although it doesn't reach Athens. Selling Water by the River

We can.

And after the one-liner, just because this passage in the letters of Bassui is so beautiful: At work, at rest, never stop trying to realize who it is that hears. Even though your questioning penetrates the unconscious, you won’t find the one who hears, and all your efforts will come to naught. Yet sounds can be heard, so question yourself to an even profounder level. At last every vestige of self-awareness will disappear and you will feel like a cloudless sky. Within yourself you will find no “I,” nor will you discover anyone who hears. This Mind is like the void, yet it hasn’t a single spot that can be called empty. Do not mistake this state for Self-realization, but continue to ask yourself even more intensely, “Now who is it that hears?” If you bore and bore into this question, oblivious to anything else, even this feeling of voidness will vanish and you won’t be aware of anything—total darkness will prevail. [Don’t stop here, but] keep asking with all your strength, “What is it that hears?” Only when you have completely exhausted the questioning will the question burst; now you will feel like someone who has come back from the dead. This is true realization. You will see the Buddhas of all the universes face-to-face and the Dharma Ancestors past and present. Test yourself with this koan: “A monk asked Joshu: “What is the meaning of Bodhidharma’s coming to China?’ Joshu replied: ‘The oak tree in the garden.’ ”Should this koan leave you with the slightest doubt, you need to resume questioning, “What is it that hears?”

Water by the River

And it is One without a second, and not One.

With the energetic practices/meditation that you describe one can generate states that are awakened and boundless/nondual. But as soon as the energetic practice stops, the separate-self Gestalt/structure "kills" the nondual boundless blissful state when it comes back after practice. One can literally feel it contract back in the head. Its like applying medicine to a disease. Relieves the symptoms, but not the source problem (separate-self contraction. Literally contraction, creating contraction/location/center in the head and body). There are practices that dissolve the separate-self-contraction directly (the root-cause, or the source problem, and not just its symptoms, no nonduality and lacking bliss), in a way that the whole flow of I-thoughts/I-feelings is cut off in real time fast enough (Trekchö in Dzogchen for example, certain Mahamudra practices), That (dissolving all me-thoughts/concepts and -feelings) fast enough in real time (needs a lot of training) then leads to dissolving the sensation of being centered in the body (the contractions and localizations), and also leads to "hard" nondual/infinite Awakened states (then also off the pillow in daily life), including the "solidity" of the "outher" world being replaced by mere lucid appearance hovering in infinite Nothingness/Reality/Ones True Self as expressions of it, "seeing itself". Without these two shifts towards truly nondual awakened states (loss of center and mere appearance instead of solid external world), most of the talk/writing about it is just wishful thinking and conceptual speculation. It is not just thinking differently, these are "hard" awakened states. Only in these awakened states can the real state of Reality be realized, and the separate self slowly dissolved. Without these hard awakened nondual states, there is only illusion/duality/separate-self, and no chance to really realize what the underlying nondual Reality beyond the illusion/ignorance really is. I have the impression that is an important point for you, since you are among the rather few that actually practice and not just engage in conceptual speculation, but in generating these awakened states. And I agree fully on that. I have written extensively about these practices of Dzogchen/Mahamudra. If that is done proficient & fast enough, the mechanism of creating a separate-self and a localization & center stops, and one has these awakened boundless/nondual/infinite states of Infinite Nondual Consciousness in daily life when getting up from the pillow. I can confirm this from my own practice. It is too good to be true. Yet, it is true, and at that stage of practice always available. From that basis and in these states, one can dissolve the last remnants of the separate self contractions/localizations/lenses of perception in the burning of ones own infinite and impersonal True Being. The contractions that were the separate-self/ego melt like ice in the sun. I can only invite to try these techniques. In my experience, they are way superior to any standard concentration/energetic sitting meditation/practice. Exactly because it attacks the root-cause, and opens up Awakened Nonduality States in daily life. Mahamudra uses extensively concentrative sitting-meditation and energetic practices (Tummo for example) in the beginning, but goes beyond it as soon as possible. Off the pillow. Water by the River Here a description of the practice system I mainly used: https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/92467-god-fucking-damn-it-another-meditation-rant-thread/?do=findComment&comment=1309816

Yes. At the Absolute, all dualities/pointers/words fail. Realizing by BEING the Infinite/Nothingness/Totality and dropping the clouds/ignorance of false separate-self totally. So one can approach IT from both "sides": Nothing-Ness/Infinite or Infinity/Everything. IT is both Nothing(-ness) and everything/Infinity. See below (from the same link), marked in green. And the most important parts are: 1) "In Nothingness, there is some degree of awareness present—it is not how most people imagine brain death—albeit unconditioned, object- and subjectless. The Consciousness (for lack of a better word) of Non-being is so subtle that the moment we try to reflect upon it to check if we are conscious, we are jarred back into ‘being’ and into our ordinary dualistic consciousness. I hesitate even to call this experience “pure subjectivity,” for that invites a metaphysical position that I am not willing to support." That part is the problem in all Psychedelic Awakenings I have seen so far (projecting separate-something on IT, creating "facets", or "I" am God). Not to even talk about all the endearing conceptual (non-awakening) solipsistic speculations and projections. and 2) "Personally, I think that differentiating between Nothingness and consciousness is helpful, and that is my ultimate goal—to help people realize Non-being or Absolute Consciousness. At that point, I can care less whether people call it Nothingness, God, Brahman, Buddha Nature, One Mind, Universal Consciousness, or a kangaroo." and here the green markings in the post:

If there is still "someone" thinking/feeling of being totally alone, there are also still "others". Empty Impersonal Infinite Consciousness/Reality contains these thought/feeling-arisings of being alone. "IT" is so empty that it can't feel alone. That would be an arising of thought/feelings "in Itself". If these last arisings of separate-self-afraid of being alone-fear are transcended, there is only (impersonal) love and bliss in that Nondual Reality/Infinite Consciousness, realizing itself as one without a second. Before that Gateless Gate, the game/Lila uses all fear- and delusion-meachnisms to scare the separate-self away from Truth. Beyond it, there is only nondual unity, love and bliss. One justcan't see this from before the shift, which is in the nature of the game. No Illusion, No Duality, No Other. So fear is the price to pay for the game/Lila of having "an other". Selling Water by the River

Yes. Very good. That already conforms to realizing/being Ultimate Reality quite nicely. Allow me some musings... And if the "one" having these insights/understandings is also seen as just an arising/movement/I-thought and I-feeling - "bundle/structure/Gestalt" happening/moving in that nondual boundless Reality, it can be realized that this Understander/separate-self having that insight/understanding/Awakening is and always was just an illusion. And never existed as more than some illusion/ignorance-clouds moving in that boundless infinite impersonal Reality/Infinite Consciousness beyond which nothing can exist. Doesn't really exist (beyond an illusion), has never really existed, and will never really exist (beyond some more illusion/ignorance). More on that step: Selling Water by the River

"One" can act and communicate totally normal in these awakened nondual states (of infinite consciousness) after a certain time of getting used to them. Peak to plateau to permanent. Reality acts and communicates with itself then. Communicating with "somebody" not aware of the underlying nondual unity of Absolute Reality is then just communicating with an appearing perspective/being (although that is then most often confused and ignorant, believing to be separate) within ones nondual boundless visual field/Being. Loosing ones awakened nondual infinite state of consciousness while communicating with other "beings" gets less and less with ongoing practice. But it is then totally clear and intuitively understood (in these awakened states) that empty infinite Awareness is looking through the eyes/perspective of all beings. And it is the same as the empty impersonal Awareness of any being, or "of" Absolute Reality. Although in most other beings/perspectives this empty impersonal Awareness is mightily confused and covered with clouds of ignorance/separate-self-arisings/I-thoughts and I-feelings preventing this realization in that being/perspective... The most funny and endearing ones by the way are those that think they have realized Ultimate Reality/Empty Impersonal Awareness while doing their conceptual solipsistic gig. Selling Water by the River

Very True. Allow me some musings (in general, not specifically to your answer), since this is an important point. The Absolute Reality can only be described/approached with a) what it is not (in-finite, silent, Abyss, Nothing-"ness"), via negative (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophatic_theology), Nagarjuna Madyamaka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Śūnyatā). Although Yogachara/Consciousness only school (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogachara) extended that to Infinite Consciousness (which is true), we are already on a slippery slope here giving the Absolute limitations and (relative) properties. b) pointers showing a path to practices (actual practices, not just concepts) that can generate certain nondual awakened states in which the realization of it (Reality itself and ones True Self) can happen by itself ("Enlightenment"). By removing the filters/clouds of the ego and BEING infinite reality itself. Why? Because all these pointers appear WITHIN Absolute Reality. Can an infinite ocean define and realize itself fully using only water as pointer in an infinite "mass" of water? So we can describe the waves of the ocean and what the ocean does, and how it confuses all the waves to think they are waves. But we can never describe the infinite ocean fully with concepts. For that, one has to be it and realize it. And for that, the ego/self-contraction has to truly die and get truly transcended. Not just wear new cloths (I am God/facet a/facet b/.../n+1). Which is the same as the wave declaring it is the ocean. Deep Identity Level change. How does one spot it? Wave=psychological suffering. Ocean = potential for no more psychological suffering when the wave is truly dead/transcended, having been seen through and fully being/living as the ocean. Quite a task, but nothing else to do for eternity... Selling Water by the River

"When I look around me at the things in my world and say, “Everything is alive,” what I’m really saying is that everything is consciousness in a process of evolution. Just as evolutionary biologists look at a human being and say, “Millions of years ago, you were just a single cell swimming in a primeval sea,” so I might look at myself and think, “Millions of years ago, my consciousness was a sofa in an alien’s living room circling Epsilon Beta IV in the Gamma Quadrant!” And who knows what far future David Spangler may be starting his evolution of consciousness as my easy chair right now? This is fanciful, of course, but my main point is not. We all participate in a universe of consciousness that is evolving all the time, from the dimmest flickering of sentiency existing in a dream state that is not even self-aware to the fabulously and unimaginably complex and radiant cosmic Beings whose lives embrace entire galaxies. And what we do affects that evolution, at least in the environment around us. I have encountered subtle beings in the higher-order realms in comparison to whom my consciousness is not much more evolved than the sentiency I find in my sofa. Their response to me is always loving, caring, considerate, and appropriate. They are like shepherds of consciousness, tending its evolution across vast expanses of life and energy. The light of my sentiency is like a shadow compared to theirs, yet they tend to it—as they do to millions and billions of other lives and consciousnesses within the field of their awareness—as if it were the brightest, most valuable flame in creation. This is the true implication of saying that everything is alive. We are each caretakers for the consciousnesses evolving around us, particularly those of lesser complexity and capacity than our own. When it gets down to it, I really am my sofa’s keeper!" David Spangler, Subtle Worlds, An Explorer's Field Notes I thought maybe that is interesting for some. The range of beings, from Sofa to human to beings embracing entire galaxies, towards totally alien realms beyond. And we as humans in the middle. Able to realize and live our True Nature of Infinite Consciousness/Reality itself. Until we do something else next life. Maybe develop towards that Galactic thing? Who knows... And endless wonderful path still ahead. What do we do while here on the planet? Preview being Galactic beings (or Alien beings/realms beyond) in certain psychedelic states this life with boosting consciousness? Or realizing and stabilizing our essence, that which we really are: Absolute Reality, Pure Impersonal Infinite Awareness in nondual Union with all that is arising? The blissfull Empty Infinite Centerless Timeless Nonduality of Awakened Awareness? And going previewing other possible modes of existence from that basis/realization, with or without psychedelics? Or not at all? Or tending our garden, hobbies, enjoying earth? Or both? That I don't know, and the answer is unique for each being. But one thing I do know and have realized, beyond any doubt or possibility of error: Going exploring before having stabilized the realization of True Nature/Enlightenment and access to ones True Impersonal Nondual Infinite Nature (and the blissfull states it brings resting in that can bring) can only mean regular suffering. By definition, like any other separate-self and its projects to ease the suffering. Because where there is not this realization, there is only the self-contraction/duality/separate ego and its cycles of suffering and fear and contraction. Which seeks easing its suffering by having the sublime experiences/states of higher consciousness/realm states, often of psychedelic nature. Having said & written that: Bon voyage on whatever your path may be. Walk it, but don't have the illusion that peaking and previewing divine and higher realms brings the permanent freedom from (psychological) suffering/resistance/contraction that only transcending the self-contraction/ego can bring. Preview it, peak into the bliss of divine higher realms, explore it and try it for as long as necessary, and then realize and stabilize the bliss of ones True Nondual and Pure Impersonal Nature/Being right here, right now, on this earth. Water by the River PS: 2nd thread started ever. Hope nobody is too annoyed by this one.

Yup

Long enough time in that state you are training in will open the window for the shift towards Realization. You already perceive the facets of the elephant quite clearly and unmistakenly (Infinite, no concepts, Reality itself, unmistakenly,...). Long enough burning of all remnants of the separate self/ego-clouds in clear brazing Sun of your Empty Pure Impersonal Infinite Nature will clear the last clouds away. And when "you" rest in that and need to do nothing (because who would do it) to maintain these Awakened Impersonal Infinite Nondual Awakened States of Awareness, then suddenly it can become totally clear. The last remnants of the separate self are very very subtle, way more subtle than concepts or I-feelings. They need to get seen as object and transcended/cut off again and again. Its like learning a high-speed search and reckognition task of not looking through these filters/lenses/centers, but seeing them moving in True You. When its pure enough, the shift will happen. When you have gone this path, you know and have learned how to cut off/transcend/let go of all these clouds, all filters of the separate self. That is why the realization is accessible sobre later. You know (automatically) how to produce nondual awakened states but cutting off the filters. What can help at that stage is for example the practices of the Mahamudra-System stage 3, Yoga of One Taste (One Taste= Nondual), and 4. Stage of Nonmeditation (Where any doing/doer/Activity is and be dropped and the nondual awakened state can still be maintained. In this stage 4 the mind continuum ripens so that the big shift towards Enlightenment can happen. Afterwards the access to the Infinite or Awakend Nondual Awareness is quite stable, depending on the practice done before. It is very lovely "there". Already when approaching it it is so blissfull in these nondual states. In that bliss the ego-contraction dies/dissolves, because it is clearly seen and felt as contraction in the head, unpleasant and making nonduality localized again. I have written quite a bit about the Mahamudra stages of Nonmeditation Yoga and Yoga of One Taste. Maybe you find that interesting: https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Nonmeditation Yoga&author=Water by the River https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?q="Yoga of One Taste"&author=Water by the River&sortby=relevancy

In Enlightenment, you literally become the Elephant. And understand it by being it. That is how Reality was realized by hundreds across the ages, all said more or less the same. Vibv, we can stop the discussion at that point, because it will not progress, and it that will not make sense to you until you have that realization or at least an openness. Actually, with your views you are cutting yourself off from that realization to a high degree, because you think you already have it and know it. The video with the overflowing cup. I know you don't like that, because some had Enlightenment/Realization and some didn't. But that doesn't change the truth of it. At each beings core is exactly THAT, and that makes it egalitarian. A potential than can be realized by all beings. Both facets are not equally true. The personal aspect is illusion/ignorance. The Impersonal Pure Consciousness is more fundamental (or eternal) than the passing or temporary personal consciousness that arises in It. The Oceans and the waves are not different, but the ocean is the Reality OF the wave. And fundamentally more true and permanent than the wave. No talking or lamenting or arguing will change that.

With that logic you can call any internal state a construction. Or anything at all a construction. Which to some degree it is. But then you can stop talking, since you deny relative reality. The relative phenomena like states of blissful emptiness do occur in the mindstream of beings/perspective, and have relative/manifesting truth. And btw. blissful emptiness is really blissful. Not a bad fantasy

@Javfly33, although I tend to criticize anything "loaden" with remnants of Ego/separate self called "God", which often results in something like "boundless God-Ego", I agree with Leo here. Absolute Reality can validly be called God/Divinity, since Reality/Absolute is infinite, eternal, and one without a second. And since it contains all there is and could be and "holds" it, it could also be called omniscient. And all-powerful. These properties of infinite, eternal, and one without a second and omniscient and all-powerful are traditionally the properties and definitions of God. Webster's New World Dictionary; " ... , regarded as eternal, infinite, all-powerful, and all-knowing; Supreme Being; the Almighty". Just not a "Being" separate from the nondual Totality, and Being one without a second. Being IS, Non-Being is not. Parmenides. Or Reality/God/Being is, Non-Being is not.

Yes. Becoming the infinite boundless Bubble is the first step (Godself). Its like extending the Ego (although very empty/murky at this point already) to infinity. Already nondual and quite awakened, but not truly IT, since its not impersonal and truly Pure Empty Infinite Consciousness. And that is why its not stable. Separate Self/Ego still clouding the True Impersonal Pure Being/Reality. Ripening in that state over a long time (hundreds of hours normally), then sudden Enlightenment/waking up can happen. Truly becoming the Infinite, True No Self = Infinite. And that infinite Reality always already WAS behind everything. Deep Identity Level Shift. Accessible later on sobre. Taking the wrong exit with the radioactive skull: Blowing up the God-Ego even more.... End of progress. Roger Thisdell has to excellent videos on that: One step more in the right direction: And game over:

That can be anything sentient. And since there is only Infinite Consciousness, any Holon/perspective/being, from atom, bacteria, ant, animal, human (individual Holons), Alien, whatever n+1, to large social Holons like a Planetery Consciousness/Gaia, Galaxy or whole Universes/Realms/Lokas/Buddhafields/Dimensions holding the individual holons/beings in their larger being/realm. Up towards other Realms that are so alien/"other" one can not even talk about them because they don't have the correlates of this Realm like space/time/causality and so on (see for example Jac O'Keffee, Stephen Wolinsky, David Spandler, David Buckland). All beings/realms have some kind of sentience/interiortiy/consciousness, and something that makes them individual from the Totality/Infinite Reality, and that "something/manifestation" arises within their perspectives. Ken Wilber has a nice desription of Holons/perspectives/beings (both individual and social Holons) and Holarchy in Sex, Ecology, Spirituality. An Infinite Mind/Consciousness, separates itself into infinite perspectives/Holons/beings that are aware of each other (Indras Net), and play hide & seek & grow back home, in all realms and dimensions possible.

Yes. Awareness is so impersonal and pure that if nothing arises/manifests (including self-consciousness, separate self) it doesn't even know it exists. Infinite. Just Pure Nothingness/Awareness, with the potential of sentience or to be aware OF something. And that of can be a human separate self/ego.

That is on the right path, because to BE the Pure Impersonal Infinite all of these ideas/concepts have to be transcended/seen as moving within IT/Oneself. Then, Reality = God, God = Reality. Reality/God/Infinite manifests/imagines, or just contains a manifested side in it in a nondual way. One understands IT by BEING it. And removing the clouds/lenses/filters of the separate self/I-thoughts/feeling interpreting Awakenings. There is nothing else, nor could be. Only Ones True Nature/Being. Forever. That is the difference between Enlightenment and Awakening, or the Deep Identity Shift after which the separate-self-arisings (I-thoughts, I -feelings, conceptual "Understandings") are seen fully and truly as moving WITHIN the Infinite Reality that one truly is. Afterwards, this Infinite True Being is accessible in daily life sobre. The Illusion-clouds are seen through very fast if one just "re"-intuits the Infinite beyond experience/manifestation/arising. All of these facet-Understandings of God/Reality/Elephant can be generated after Enlightenment easily. Just a view Koans more, if its not already clear with Enlightenment. It is just what one is. But the Deep Identity Shift of truly "getting/realizing" the Impersonal Infinite Always Here Reality, ones True Nature, makes IT accessible afterwards in daily life sobre. That is the difference. The Elephant is realized UNFILTERED/uncoloured, unfiltered by remaining ego-filters/lenses. Pure uncoloured/unfiltered Impersonal Awareness realizes itself and Reality in a truly nondual way. Not just merging/unity with it and later separating again into something separate, but truly becoming it. Not oil mixed with water and shaken and later separated, but ice molten in water. Ice = Illusion-clouds of being separate/ego, Being= ice molten in the water, only water again. Turning the oil into ice and melting it is the process of transcending and letting the illusion-separate-self/ego die/transcend it. Seeing them (fast enough) as objects moving within onself and cutting it off, just to see what happens. If that succeeds, the visual field turns nondual, boundless/limitless (nothing can be apart from it), eternal (always here), and the Deep Identity Shifts from ego to Infinite Totality beyond all experience by BEING it. Enlightenment in other words. Becoming the elephant in Enlightenment, and telling about BEING the elephant, or touching the elephant in Awakenings while not truly becoming It (but Unity/Merging with it) and telling about its trunk/feet/ears as facets of Awakening. For sure then it appears there are always higher Awakenings with higher/more consciousness. I can fully understand how that perspective looks like, and before the big shift there will be no deviating from that. Either the deep identity shift happens, and the separate-self lense/filter/cloud can be fully seen through sobre, or not. Chasing/Grasping the facets/Awakenings prevents dropping/letting-go into the truly impersonal pure Infinite Consciousness/Being. What doesn't happen necessarily/normally in becoming the Elephant/Enlightenment is visiting some far out Astral/Subtle/Alien realms, or detailed mechanisms of manifestation. But that is manifestation/form-stuff, not the Infinite Absolute. But contained by it. Fascinating, fun and even important for sure. What humanity will do until the rest of eternity (more or less). But not as important as truly realizing and being ones True Being, just because the grasping never ends this way. I also liked the posts of Osaid. That is all how it really is and works. Water by the River

Yup, and that is why an integral lifestyle without spiritual-bypassing and taking care of all relative levels usually delivers a nice dream. Balancing Absolute and Relative. LOVE for the lower levels of manifestation, and not hating & escaping them, but differentiating from them and integrating them. The alternative is a nightmare. Also a dream, but good luck transcending an ego that screams in pain and suffering on various levels of exchange of Maslows little pyramid while trying to find its way into 7th ascended spiritual heaven away from this nasty earth and its two-legged ignoran fools. While not really noticing it is only moving within IT-self. And here is where Reality is really LOVE: IT loves doing that too. But it is also a bit like: Nietzsche: God is dead. God: Nietzsche is dead. Btw., for the aficionados/critics/marketers: That little story above is not so much Buddhism, it is more Ken Wilber & company. Just to make sure that the right -ISM gets shot.