Water by the River

That is wrong in my experience. But see for yourself before you rule out what is possible.

When first stepping truly into True No-Self or truly impersonal Infinite Nondual Being, it kills the separate self. Literally. It no is longer believed at all, just as an assembly/Gestalt of incorrect ignorant ideas and feelings, realized as appearing mirage that just pretended and cut off in real time. The snake is the rope. Which is Infinite Impersonal Being. And "the" "Realizer" of that is also more BS-clusters of thoughts and feelings. That closes the loop. The separate-self illusion has then no ground to stand any more in infinite groundless mere appearance Infinite Being. Then, it is replaced by an Infinite Ocean of Suchness or groundless mere nondual appearance. Only after quite some familiarity with that does the normal hypnosis of unawakened human life seem as the altered state, and the empty Suchness as the unaltered state. Yet, that is how things truly are.

When it is all said and done (in retrospect), all other states of consciousness seem quite altered and strange when compared to the no-self state. No-self is in no way an altered state of consciousness; it is completely and absolutely unaltered. It is simply the One, seen from the One's point of view. It is a single drop of rain, a cloud passing, the fall of your own breath. Adyashanti

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e78ZGCm4jtU&t=84s Sorry, didn't find that in english.

1 hour ago, Water by the River said: Like any other being, it seems to me you strive for what brings you satisfaction. Now you equate pleasure with bliss or non-suffering. Which I didn't do: The Sat & Chit in Sat-Chit-Ananda, or the bliss & love that a sobre Awakened Nondual State brings is also not pleasure, and I assume you are well aware of that. So lets look up Wikipedia (I know..) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleasure "Pleasure is part of various other mental states such as ecstasy, euphoria and flow. Happiness and well-being are closely related to pleasure but not identical with it." "Pleasure refers to experience that feels good, that involves the enjoyment OF something". For example of Infinite-Consciousness-chasing-exploration. The bliss or love of Awakened Nondual States doesn't NEED the enjoyment OF something. Then we would have to consider the nondual essence Nothingness behind all appearance as OF something. Which luckily it isn't, because it is not OF something (but Infinite Being, Nothingness and nondual appearance and not something specific IN/OF it) Selling the basic difference between pleasure and between causeless Sat-Chit-Ananda by the River

Like any other being, it seems to me you strive for what brings you satisfaction. And even if that comes from "Infinitely Consciousness"-ET/research/n+1 or whatever. Dukkha=unsatisfaction (unsatisfying is a much better translation than suffering) = separate self = appearing/imagined opposite of bliss & love of Infinite Being. Or do you strife for dis-satisfaction? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Discovery These guys also did what they liked... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccidānanda Sat! Chit! Sorry. Watching & cheering the Great Discoverers departing on their ships by the River. Really! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_no_man_has_gone_before#:~:text="Where no man has gone,Shatner as Captain James T.

. Let's dance. How about researching angels? Ok, got me. Demons & Aliens are also interesting: But angels also Strassman, DMT and the Soul of Prophecy: A New Science of Spiritual Revelation in the Hebrew Bible Who else could? Water by the River listening to....

Exactly. Heroine is a foretaste of these states where the self-contraction is totally obliterated. Unearned bliss. That is what makes it so dangerous. Luckily, psychedelics are not that dangerous, and can be even non-addictive by boosting consciousness. Yet, certain similiarities in possibilities of bypassing are hard to ignore.

When the arugment breaks down we turn to funny stuff. But its a step further than the rodent-insults -comments. So fine with me. Have you ever seen an enlightened crocodile? Maybe the crocodile becomes a Neandertaler after having been an efficient crocodile and l-o-v-i-n-g its food? Who knows? But to be honest, crocodile minds are not really my research-focus. They seem to be not too high neither on the Karmic-evolution-ladder, nor on the smartness-ladder. Not even being a good-buddy-ladder... Bon Appétit: I always wonder when you sleep? I just got up here in Germany.

There are certain things an Infinite Nondual Being can not do. Like die. Nowhere to go. It can cast itself out into division and duality, or ignorance and delusion. But all of that is unstable, and returns to the source. Like a rubber-band. A universe moving towards darkness doesn't make sense. The Alpha and Omega is Infinite Being. The groundless ground or Suchness of Infinite Being is always the same, even in your imagined universe whose game it is to move towards darkeness. All parts yearn for the whole. Yet same parts fear the love&unity so much that they retract further into "part-ness"/separation/duality. Which is unstable. The only stable "thing" is Infinite Being. Every other appearance is just temporary appearance. Which is quite shocking in itself, since everything we hold near and dear is an appearance, bound to disappear. While only formless True Being is eternal, which is pretty much Nothing(-ness) in certain states like deep sleep. Think about it like this: Despite Infinity, certain things are just impossible. For example, in every 2-dimensional triangle in euclidian space, the sum of the angles is always 180 degree. No Infinity will change that, ever, in no realm. We have to move to non-euclidian-space then, which is no longer euclidian space, for which that law just holds. These "rules of the game" even hold for Infinite Being/Reality. Some things are just not possible, even in Infinity. Like for example total Non-Existence. Parmenides already reckognized "Being is, Non-Being is not". Selling Being is by the River

The issue that after you experience heroinepsychedelic levels of blissconsciousness, nothing less will satify you. Ken Wilber once wrote something along the lines of certain states of bliss can only be accessed in higher subtle realms or states of Awakening, and Heroine/Opiades can give a foretaste. Of course that is addictive. It is a kind of unearned divine bliss, not accessible sobre because the structure to do that is not in place. Of course that wreaks the whole growth path and its dynamic. And that is why heroine is truly evil stuff. It is true that nothing less will satisfy oneself than the awakened states True Being brings along. And that it is normally a long and hard road achieving that sobre. But what is the alternative? Addiction? Meditation done in the right way/technique, over long time in daily practice (even if its carried into daily life and not on the cushion) early over a decade can produce fascinating results. I can testify that, and I consider even short amounts of meditation as adding up if done with the right technique. Key is getting it working in daily life, then the necessary time of thousands of hours can be added up. The strength of consciousness to transcend former identifications is strenghtened always, even by small amounts. Which can add up over years, decades, or lifetimes.

No my friend. Consider there are Infinitly Consciousness enlightened Awakened States and Realizations (where that is totally obvious and how that holds for Infinite Being/Reality) that maybe you haven't had yet. Hey, I start talking like you Selling demon-eddies-in-the-River-are-not-permanently-without-suffering-but-rather-the-opposite by the River

No, not human logic. Basic laws of duality when Infinite Being splits itself apart and plays hide & seek and return to the source. How do I know that? Well, there are Awakened states where that is blatantly obvious what separate-self arisings that hide/cloud True Being are (separation= a spectrum of evil, from very mild to very very dark), and how they they literally contract the original Infinite Blissfull Being just with their arising into duality and separation. And contraction IS suffering, it is directly realized and felt that way, a cluster of sensations and contractions assembling a localization and center, most often in the head. And if one is able to cut them off fast enough, the Infinite Field returns to its original state: infinite and groundless and nondual without a center again. And full of love and bliss. True Being is boundless infinite Nonduality and (your much absolutized) Infinite L-O-V-E. Sat-Chit-Ananda. and anywhere were that Awakening and love (when the clouds of ignorance is removed) is not and where it is clouded by separation, there is just necessarily suffering (in cycles and various degrees) and the self-contraction. It is totally obvious and infinite/absolute that it is a no-brainer. And that realization my friend, that is absolute. There is no realm where that is not the case, because you know, Infinite True Being. Nothing outside of It.Either nondual and infinite and mere appearance and love, or duality and out-thereness, and fear. Somebody ought to make a youtube-viedeo about it. “Reality unfolds like a fractal divisions within divisions reunions within reunions. Consciousness polarizes and depolarizes it expands and it contracts back it diverges that it reckon verges and it keeps doing this forever eternally and that is the dance of consciousness or Infinite Mind” Aha. And now lets think that to the very end. And again, I am not talking about animals, nor rocks or bacteria. But higher level beings and their evolutionary lines, starting on a certain level of complexity. A molecule can not be evil, but the game of Karma/souls and return to the source starts at beings/perspectives with some level of self-awareness. But thanks for commenting, I understand you and your behaviour a bit better now. I assume you think that something like a (relative, just appearing, but appearing nontheless) soul "storing" in a higher dimension all this self-contraction or openess/love, and other lessons and the impact it had (on others, and oneself), from life to life, doesn't really exist, even in a relative way. Or is subordinate to hey, its all imagined anyway. Which is true, but forgets the power that suffering and/or love still holds for a separate being to either be awakened in sobre states or not. Including you my friend. I have a bit the feeling that you believe yourself to be a bit above the game of cause and consequences, or in other words Karma. You still are not telling why you stopped doing psychedelics and what happened, and write more about crocodiles. If you don't just want to escape via psychedelics (spiritual bypassing) and want to find genuine happiness and sobre Awakening in daily life, I wouldn't consider myself (or my relative being) to be in any way above this game of cause and effect. How about this view? "Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour." Padmasambhava If newbies take over this way of thinking (like lets go into a haunted house and try some DMT to meet something really evil, or blow up your relative life & values and just do spiritual/psychedelic bypassing, and I don't know what other less-than-smart-irresponsible stuff)... all these a bit less than funny posts in your forum where people somehow go for spiritual bypassing, although you write in places that is a no no?) and follow their idol, and then wreak their lifes... Ever considered its actually YOU in just another form suffering that? Literally You? Not metaphorically, not only true in some way out psychedelic states, but literally, all the time, just Absolutely True. Is that intuition and resulting love and compassion still so far away from your sobre life? You think that Infinite Intelligence will not give you some "less-than-positive-credit-points" on your Karma-Bill for just letting that happen? Where are your clarifying comments when a 20 year old again writes some irresponsible stuff that anybody with some more life-experience will see will f*** u* their lives? And what does Infinite Intelligence have in stock to finally correct such tendencies? Crocodiles. But is that really necessary? Although the law of cause and effect and the crocodiles are just imagined, their imagined bite creates very painful imagined sensations. As we are all probably quite aware of. Ok, that was the sermon for the sunday at the imagined church of Selling basic cause & effect by the River

Yes. Here some more interesting books: Hernandez, The Mind of GOD: A Spiritual-Virtual Reality Model of Consciousness & The Contact Modalities Hernandez, Beyond UFOs: The Science of Consciousness & Contact with Non Human Intelligence Hernandez, Vol 1 and Vol 2 of A Greater Reality: The New Paradigm of Nonlocal Consciousness, the Paranormal & the Contact Modalities Yes. And not to get fascinated and distracted by them. That would be another trap. Selling the mountain summit instead of the ETs on minor peaks & valleys by the River

Yes. Its just one Infinite Reality. A Multiverse of Dimensions, Infinity on Infinity. Dense realms like our physical universe, less dense and more subtle realms, multidimensional in all directions and realms. Two more fascinating sources: Spangler,Subtle Worlds: An Explorer’s Field Notes Spangler, Apprenticed To Spirit: The Education of a Soul And of course Jürgen Ziewe, book and homepage: https://www.multidimensionalman.com/Multidimensional-Man/Model_of_the_Multidimensional_Universe.html When ET & Angels and Demons find easily their proper places in an integral worldview with sufficiently vast enough scope & size to cover each and any juicy and fascinating topic between heaven and earth , one can relax and turn oneself to the real important topics (and not get fascincated & hypnotized by side-shows, aka traps), and get rid of the self-contraction and realize True Infinite Being. Somebody once should make a youtube-video warning about such traps And having done all of that, a balanced and integrated life in the sweet valley, having come down from the lonely mountain, awaits... Selling Water by the River already smells the scent of the gardens... Yet, some have fallen in love with ET way up the mountain. Maybe it is even a Yeti? Also hard to catch on camera. Oh well. Unicuique sua. Sorry, as german a no go to write. Selling the sweet valley after climbing the mountain summit, on wich some even claim there is the market places of the 10th ox picture to be found, right next to the River

The book shows how complex past developments have been, and that we often get just a "white-washed" version, like a lense that was created in the Yoga-movements of the last 100-200 years. Same with Buddhism. Just look up Tantra and Tantric Buddhism, for example at David Gordon White. Whoopsi. Yoga is a complex thing too, as is Tantra. David Gordon White has interesting books.... For example "Daemons Are Forever: Contacts and Exchanges in the Eurasian Pandemonium". Fascinating. It also highlights that people are often playing with psychedelics and are not aware which doors in the Multiverse they open. And what can be behind them... A little preparation, knowledge of history, and respect is quite benefical in the opinion of yours truly. Hic sunt dracones. And dracones sometimes are more hungry than playful. Strange vibe from Sinister Yogis? Yes. Better go directly to the mountain summit (Enlightenment) than taking detours in shady valleys. But knowing that the shady valleys exist, and a little bit of care is indicated, that is quite helpful for the prepared mountaineer. Luckily, Hollywood already has a few-minute trailer: "...Teach me! No. " Guess what the authors of these themes (and Dr. Strange) did back in the day.... https://www.psychedelics.com/articles/doctor-strange-steve-englehart-and-lsd/ Fascinating place, our little earth hovering in a vast Universe & Multiverse beyond it Not Selling Darth Vader/Sinister Yogi practices by the River

Hi Pudgey, suffer in cycles. They have fun doing evil, and then they suffer. Big times. Or ever heard that the evil-spirit in the evil-haunted house is happy ever after? . Yeah, that is why he became an evil spirit in a haunted house. Sounds like a very smart idea. Maybe the evil entity likes to play with you afterwards so much that you can take him home, and later on go bat-shit-crazy, or get cancer, or I don't know what? How do you think entities were being summoned over the centuries in the history of humanity? With psychedelics of course. Starting in prehistoric times. And good look getting rid of your new shadow then. Hatsis, The Witches' Ointment: The Secret History of Psychedelic Magic Hancock, Visionary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_(supernatural) At least some of these ladies & gentlemen had some basic understanding what they were doing and getting into, and some basic protection mechanisms. Hic sunt dracones. Selling don't shoot your knee cause it will hurt basic cause-effect-or-Karma by the River PS: Demon got a bit out of fashion, ET is more in fashion Vallue, Passport to Magonia: From Folklore to Flying Saucers And there are mostly nice ETs, then a few bad ETs, and also some "eat your mental sanity for breakfast ETs". Calling that then Alien Insanity would be a neologism with style, so to say. And then there are some ETs which have some really interesting and fascinating stuff to seduce the ambitious & curious psychonaut. Sadly, no camera can take pictures of them. And since one is already all beings, one can also become these ETs in certain states. So better got Will Smith on speed dial, just in case...

Suffering in cycles is the force that pulls all beings and souls back to the source. Even the demon. The more separation/duality/split off from the Source is experienced, the more suffering happens, and the more evil arises as coping mechanism. If love is not available, evil acts as coping mechanism. And only huge suffering forces the demon back on its path, away from separation and evil towards the other path, returning to the source/love. Ever heard of hell-realms/dimensions, full of evil? Thousands of NDE and OBE reports exists of these, throughout all ages&cultures. Anything split off from True Infinite Being as apparently separate being (illusion) suffers in cycles. That is totally obvious in certain Awakened states. Where there is not THAT, there is only suffering in cycles. Anything but impersonal nondual Enlightenment with the self-contraction of the separate-self gone suffers. Not all the time, but in cycles. Only in these realizations/awakened states of Infinite Impersonal Consciousness is the love of True Being flowing fully and unrestricted, and that finally lets the separate-self-contraction drown in oblivion. Interesting that you are not aware of that, not even conceptually. Evil is separation and splitting off from the source, and compensating and coping for that in extreme cases with evil behaviour, and love is the opposite force, which pulls all beings back. Reality "breaks" evil with suffering. And huge evil = huge suffering necessary. What do you think hell realms NDE/OBEs are? That is spirits way of nobody gets left behind... PS: I am not talking about animals here, but more complex beings. Like humans/demons and so on... Selling basic spiritual compass/intuition by the River

That will never work. There are gatekeepers that will prevent realization if one does it with that selfish motivation. Infinite Intelligence is smart enough for that. Actually the concept you desribe is a recipe for ruining ones life. The Meaning of Egolessness – Ken Wilber, One Taste Precisely because the ego, the soul and the Self can all be present simultaneously, we can better understand the real meaning of egolessness,a notion that has caused an inordinate amount of confusion. But egolessness does not mean the absence of a functional self (that’s a psychotic, not a sage); it means that one is no longer exclusively identified with that self. One of the many reasons we have trouble with the notion of egoless is that people want their egoless sages to fulfill all their fantasies of saintly or spiritual, which usually means dead from the neck down, without fleshy wants or desires, gently smiling all the time. All of the things that people typically have trouble with money, food, sex, relationships, desire they want their saints to be without. Egoless sages who are above all that is what people want. Talking heads is what they want. Religion, they believe, will simply get rid of all baser instincts, drives and relationships, and hence they look to religion, not for advice on how to live life with enthusiasm, but on how to avoid it, repress it, deny it, escape it. In other words, the typical person wants the spiritual sage to be less than a person, somehow devoid of all the messy, juicy, complex, pulsating, desiring, urging forces that drive most human beings. We expect our sages to be an absence of all that drives us! All the things that frighten us, confuse us, torment us, confound us: we want our sages to be untouched by them altogether. And that absence, that vacancy, that less than personal, is what we often mean by egoless. But egoless does not mean less than personal, it means more than personal. Not personal minus, but personal plus all the normal personal qualities, plus some transpersonal ones. Think of the great yogis, saints and sages from Moses to Christ to Padmasambhava. They were not feeble-mannered milquetoasts, but fierce movers and shakers from bullwhips in the Temple to subduing entire countries. They rattled the world on its own terms, not in some pie-in-the-sky piety; many of them instigated massive social revolutions that have continued for thousands of years. And they did so not because they avoided the physical, emotional and mental dimensions of humanness and the ego that is their vehicle, but because they engaged them with a drive and intensity that shook the world to its very foundations. No doubt, they were also plugged into the soul (deeper psychic) and spirit (formless Self) the ultimate source of their power but they expressed that power, and gave it concrete results, precisely because they dramatically engaged the lower dimensions through which that power could speak in terms that could be heard by all. These great movers and shakers were not small egos; they were, in the very best sense of the term, big egos, precisely because the ego (the functional vehicle of the gross realm) can and does exist alongside the soul (the vehicle of the subtle) and the Self (vehicle of the causal). To the extent these great teachers moved the gross realm, they did so with their egos, because the ego is the functional vehicle of that realm. They were not, however, identified merely with their egos (that’s a narcissist), they simply found their egos plugged into a radiant Kosmic source. The great yogis, saints and sages accomplished so much precisely because they were not timid little toadies but great big egos, plugged into the dynamic Ground and Goal of the Kosmos itself, plugged into their own higher Self, alive to the pure atman (the pure I–I) that is one with Brahman; they opened their mouths and the world trembled, fell to its knees, and confronted its radiant God. Saint Teresa was a great contemplative? Yes, and Saint Teresa is the only woman ever to have reformed an entire Catholic monastic tradition (think about it). Gautama Buddha shook India to its foundations. Rumi, Plotinus, Bodhidharma, Lady Tsogyal, Lao Tzu, Plato, the Bal Shem Tov these men and women started revolutions in the gross realm that lasted hundreds, sometimes thousands, of years, something neither Marx nor Lenin nor Locke nor Jefferson can yet claim. And they did not do so because they were dead from the neck down. No, they were monumentally, gloriously, divinely big egos, plugged into a deeper psychic, which was plugged straight into God. There is certainly a type of truth to the notion of transcending ego : it doesn’t mean destroy the ego, it means plug it into something bigger. (As Nagarjuna put it, in the relative world, atman is real; in the absolute, neither atman nor anatman is real. Thus, in neither case is anatta a correct description of reality.) The small ego does not evaporate; it remains as the functional center of activity in the conventional realm. As I said, to lose that ego is to become a psychotic, not a sage. Transcending the ego thus actually means to transcend but include the ego in a deeper and higher embrace, first in the soul or deeper psychic, then with the Witness or primordial Self, then with each previous stage taken up, enfolded, included and embraced in the radiance of One Taste. And that means we do not get rid of the small ego, but rather, we inhabit it fully, live it with verve, use it as the necessary vehicle through which higher truths are communicated. Soul and Spirit include body, emotions and mind; they do not erase them. Put bluntly, the ego is not an obstruction to Spirit, but a radiant manifestation of Spirit. All Forms are not other than Emptiness, including the form of the ego. It is not necessary to get rid of the ego, but simply to live it with a certain exuberance. When identification spills out of the ego and into the Kosmos at large, the ego discovers that the individual atman is in fact all of a piece with Brahman. The big Self is indeed no small ego, and thus, to the extent you are stuck in your small ego, a death and transcendence is required. Narcissists are simply people whose egos are not yet big enough to embrace the entire Kosmos, and so they try to be central to the Kosmos instead. But we do not want our sages to have big egos; we do not even want them to display a manifest dimension at all. Anytime a sage displays humanness in regard to money, food, sex, relationships we are shocked, shocked, because we are planning to escape life altogether, not live it, and the sage who lives life offends us. We want out, we want to ascend, we want to escape, and the sage who engages life with gusto, lives it to the hilt, grabs each wave of life and surfs it to the end this deeply, profoundly disturbs us, frightens us, because it means that we, too, might have to engage life, with gusto, on all levels, and not merely escape it in a cloud of luminous ether. We do not want our sages to have bodies, egos, drives, vitality, sex, money, relationships, or life, because those are what habitually torture us, and we want out. We do not want to surf the waves of life, we want the waves to go away. We want vaporware spirituality. The integral sage, the nondual sage, is here to show us otherwise. Known generally as tantric, these sages insist on transcending life by living it. They insist on finding release by engagement, finding nirvana in the midst of samsara, finding total liberation by complete immersion. They enter with awareness the nine rings of hell, for nowhere else are the nine heavens found. Nothing is alien to them, for there is nothing that is not One Taste. Indeed, the whole point is to be fully at home in the body and its desires, the mind and its ideas, the spirit and its light. To embrace them fully, evenly, simultaneously, since all are equally gestures of the One and Only Taste. To inhabit lust and watch it play; to enter ideas and follow their brilliance; to be swallowed by Spirit and awaken to a glory that time forgot to name. Body and mind and spirit, all contained, equally contained, in the ever-present awareness that grounds the entire display. In the stillness of the night, the Goddess whispers. In the brightness of the day, dear God roars. Life pulses, mind imagines, emotions wave, thoughts wander. What are all these but the endless movements of One Taste, forever at play with its own gestures, whispering quietly to all who would listen: is this not you yourself? When the thunder roars, do you not hear your Self? When the lightning cracks, do you not see your Self? When clouds float quietly across the sky, is this not your very own limitless Being, waving back at you? Mentioning that there are crocodiles in the River

Don't be Darth Vader Sinister Yogis, David Gordon White

Pointing out the Great Way, Daniel Brown. Brown was a unique person. Both a meditation master of 5 decades and a Harvard Psychologist PH.d.. Towards the end of his life he perceived permission by Menri Trizin to translate the secret und alltime favourites of TIbetan Buddhism (including books on Dzogchen, Tummo/Inner Fire both alone/couple, Tögal, Dark Retreat and so on). It is not Yoga in the classic sense the word is normally used (westernized Indian Yoga). Mahamudra has 4 main stages (Yogas), highly detailed meditation instructions. https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Pointing out the Great Way&author=Water by the River

I also believe using both is best and most efficient. At the final stages of meditation, one can dissolve these last and very subtle lenses. When taking for example the Mahamudra-system, which I consider as the most sophisticated system on the planet (together with Dzogchen), the Yoga of One Taste (advanced practice, 3rd stage in Mahamudra system) makes the visual field boundless, infinite and mere appearance/lucid. Basically the effect that many psychedelics have. And no, that is not yet Enlightenment. https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=yoga of one taste&author=Water by the River The final lenses of deception/illusion are not yet dissolved at stage 3. But here we are already on very trippy terrain, visual field nondual, boundless and infinite and mere appearance. And now comes the kicker: stage 4, Nonmeditation Yoga automizes the techniques done at stage 3 in such a way that even the meditator can be dissolved. There is no longer a separate-anything doing anything, the meditation does itself. Awakening, or Awakened Awareness (nondual, boundless, infinite, groundless, and impersonal, or not only personal), does the meditation. As long as someone does the meditation, the illusion with the dream-character is still well and alive, even if its nondual and what not. A nondual dream. https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Nonmeditation Yoga&author=Water by the River What happens at stage 4 Nonmeditation Yoga can no longer be fully described. But it can be understood what happens or happened once it happens. And it takes a loooong time at stage 4 Nonmeditation Yoga, at least for most, until crossing over to Enlightenment happens. No other. No you. Just Infinite Consciousness/Reality, an Infinite Ocean of Awareness, its essence forever unchanged. Eternal. Always having been the case. The former separate-self just an illusion. And until one gets the hundreds or thousands of hours (if one is not a prodigy) in these states to make it to the big bang, if one tries to do that with psychedelics, one has ones brain fried long before. And a God-complex on top if one doesn't start on the humble side from the beginning (which few do), since the ego projects itself already busily on the nondual infinite field, see stage 3. And if one has bad luck, ET comes along and gives a seductive smile... But that is another topic. And the limitations/problems of meditation practice: Getting to Nonduality, stage 3. Takes a looong time, and many things can be implemented incorrectly. Then, meditation practice NEVER leads to Nonduality,boundlessness-infnite and mere appearance. That happens to 98%+ of meditators, because the meditation techniques used are so inefficient that multiple thousand of hours of hardcore head-against-the-wall meditation would be needed... Few are made for that. Mahamudra on the other side can be used efficiently in daily life if done correctly. Without Mahamudra Pointing out the Great Way style I would have gotten nowhere, and even with that I read the book 15 times over 10 years to get it. To get a nondual state take enough shrooms et voila. To experience Infinity take some 5-MeO et voila. It prooves that its real. Most meditators without psychedelics give up before that. One knows if one does something correct with meditation if these psychedelic-induced awakenings happen from meditation. Hope I have answered all your questions. Selling Water by the River

How refreshing. Until now, mostly agnostics, sceptics, and of course the holy inquisition of the church of psychedelic-summum-bonum showed up for our poor chap Selling Water by the River and his annoying and futile selling attempts. Doing his lonely gig by the river mostly in vain, although admittedly smiling in amazement & benevolently on the whole show of the many ways the waves in the River can deny being the River (and needing to dissolve certain -um- substances to realize their wetness, only to later play&feel not-being-water-and-the-River), and go instead surfing for the highest infinitely consciousness wave. Rumours have it that even similiarties to certain rodents with membership to a certain congregation-of-faith were observed. So it seems many of them are a bit less-than-fond of using Selling Water by the River propagated frog-mixers for chopping the separate-self-contraction in real-time for good. Which of course is a bit unfortunate, because if some of the real ugly crocodiles of life bite, I assume the 16th Karmapas final performance was more comfortable & loving than the ususal patterns of the demise of the separate-self (-illusion). https://dakinitranslations.com/2021/11/05/running-into-the-vast-space-of-miraculous-love-account-of-16th-karmapas-extraordinary-conduct-during-sickness-and-paranirvana-1981-and-showe/ Selling Water by the River (not opposed to imagined company of aficionados of the same profession, since the River is wide with infinite water and an amazing dream-game of an infinity of imagined beings-to-save customers is going on)

Oh my, give it a try and see if it causes suffering or not. Then tell us about Karma 1 0 1. Sorry, that recommendation was a bit unresponsible. My bad. Sure there is. A few centuries ago, they called that daemonic (of the good and bad kind). Nowadays, many daemonic entities changed their pronouns, and go by more fashionable terms like Aliens et al. (of the good and bad kind, high and low kind). Vallee, Passport to Magonia: From Folklore to Flying Saucers ...and get a demonic fan-club. Yes, great idea. Hic sunt dracones. Selling Water by the River PS: If selling Water by the River has to dream an illusion-dream anyway, he appears to have a a mild preference for a lucid nice dream instead of a non-lucid nightmare. But whatever floats ones boat I guess...

Well, in that usage I meant separate-self with ego. But ego is also the functional unit of the human. And if its transcended and no longer separate, its all nice and well: The Meaning of Egolessness – Ken Wilber, One Taste Precisely because the ego, the soul and the Self can all be present simultaneously, we can better understand the real meaning of egolessness,a notion that has caused an inordinate amount of confusion. But egolessness does not mean the absence of a functional self (that’s a psychotic, not a sage); it means that one is no longer exclusively identified with that self. One of the many reasons we have trouble with the notion of egoless is that people want their egoless sages to fulfill all their fantasies of saintly or spiritual, which usually means dead from the neck down, without fleshy wants or desires, gently smiling all the time. All of the things that people typically have trouble with money, food, sex, relationships, desire they want their saints to be without. Egoless sages who are above all that is what people want. Talking heads is what they want. Religion, they believe, will simply get rid of all baser instincts, drives and relationships, and hence they look to religion, not for advice on how to live life with enthusiasm, but on how to avoid it, repress it, deny it, escape it. In other words, the typical person wants the spiritual sage to be less than a person, somehow devoid of all the messy, juicy, complex, pulsating, desiring, urging forces that drive most human beings. We expect our sages to be an absence of all that drives us! All the things that frighten us, confuse us, torment us, confound us: we want our sages to be untouched by them altogether. And that absence, that vacancy, that less than personal, is what we often mean by egoless. But egoless does not mean less than personal, it means more than personal. Not personal minus, but personal plus all the normal personal qualities, plus some transpersonal ones. Think of the great yogis, saints and sages from Moses to Christ to Padmasambhava. They were not feeble-mannered milquetoasts, but fierce movers and shakers from bullwhips in the Temple to subduing entire countries. They rattled the world on its own terms, not in some pie-in-the-sky piety; many of them instigated massive social revolutions that have continued for thousands of years. And they did so not because they avoided the physical, emotional and mental dimensions of humanness and the ego that is their vehicle, but because they engaged them with a drive and intensity that shook the world to its very foundations. No doubt, they were also plugged into the soul (deeper psychic) and spirit (formless Self) the ultimate source of their power but they expressed that power, and gave it concrete results, precisely because they dramatically engaged the lower dimensions through which that power could speak in terms that could be heard by all. These great movers and shakers were not small egos; they were, in the very best sense of the term, big egos, precisely because the ego (the functional vehicle of the gross realm) can and does exist alongside the soul (the vehicle of the subtle) and the Self (vehicle of the causal). To the extent these great teachers moved the gross realm, they did so with their egos, because the ego is the functional vehicle of that realm. They were not, however, identified merely with their egos (that’s a narcissist), they simply found their egos plugged into a radiant Kosmic source. The great yogis, saints and sages accomplished so much precisely because they were not timid little toadies but great big egos, plugged into the dynamic Ground and Goal of the Kosmos itself, plugged into their own higher Self, alive to the pure atman (the pure I–I) that is one with Brahman; they opened their mouths and the world trembled, fell to its knees, and confronted its radiant God. Saint Teresa was a great contemplative? Yes, and Saint Teresa is the only woman ever to have reformed an entire Catholic monastic tradition (think about it). Gautama Buddha shook India to its foundations. Rumi, Plotinus, Bodhidharma, Lady Tsogyal, Lao Tzu, Plato, the Bal Shem Tov these men and women started revolutions in the gross realm that lasted hundreds, sometimes thousands, of years, something neither Marx nor Lenin nor Locke nor Jefferson can yet claim. And they did not do so because they were dead from the neck down. No, they were monumentally, gloriously, divinely big egos, plugged into a deeper psychic, which was plugged straight into God. There is certainly a type of truth to the notion of transcending ego : it doesn’t mean destroy the ego, it means plug it into something bigger. (As Nagarjuna put it, in the relative world, atman is real; in the absolute, neither atman nor anatman is real. Thus, in neither case is anatta a correct description of reality.) The small ego does not evaporate; it remains as the functional center of activity in the conventional realm. As I said, to lose that ego is to become a psychotic, not a sage. Transcending the ego thus actually means to transcend but include the ego in a deeper and higher embrace, first in the soul or deeper psychic, then with the Witness or primordial Self, then with each previous stage taken up, enfolded, included and embraced in the radiance of One Taste. And that means we do not get rid of the small ego, but rather, we inhabit it fully, live it with verve, use it as the necessary vehicle through which higher truths are communicated. Soul and Spirit include body, emotions and mind; they do not erase them. Put bluntly, the ego is not an obstruction to Spirit, but a radiant manifestation of Spirit. All Forms are not other than Emptiness, including the form of the ego. It is not necessary to get rid of the ego, but simply to live it with a certain exuberance. When identification spills out of the ego and into the Kosmos at large, the ego discovers that the individual atman is in fact all of a piece with Brahman. The big Self is indeed no small ego, and thus, to the extent you are stuck in your small ego, a death and transcendence is required. Narcissists are simply people whose egos are not yet big enough to embrace the entire Kosmos, and so they try to be central to the Kosmos instead. But we do not want our sages to have big egos; we do not even want them to display a manifest dimension at all. Anytime a sage displays humanness in regard to money, food, sex, relationships we are shocked, shocked, because we are planning to escape life altogether, not live it, and the sage who lives life offends us. We want out, we want to ascend, we want to escape, and the sage who engages life with gusto, lives it to the hilt, grabs each wave of life and surfs it to the end this deeply, profoundly disturbs us, frightens us, because it means that we, too, might have to engage life, with gusto, on all levels, and not merely escape it in a cloud of luminous ether. We do not want our sages to have bodies, egos, drives, vitality, sex, money, relationships, or life, because those are what habitually torture us, and we want out. We do not want to surf the waves of life, we want the waves to go away. We want vaporware spirituality. The integral sage, the nondual sage, is here to show us otherwise. Known generally as tantric, these sages insist on transcending life by living it. They insist on finding release by engagement, finding nirvana in the midst of samsara, finding total liberation by complete immersion. They enter with awareness the nine rings of hell, for nowhere else are the nine heavens found. Nothing is alien to them, for there is nothing that is not One Taste. Indeed, the whole point is to be fully at home in the body and its desires, the mind and its ideas, the spirit and its light. To embrace them fully, evenly, simultaneously, since all are equally gestures of the One and Only Taste. To inhabit lust and watch it play; to enter ideas and follow their brilliance; to be swallowed by Spirit and awaken to a glory that time forgot to name. Body and mind and spirit, all contained, equally contained, in the ever-present awareness that grounds the entire display. In the stillness of the night, the Goddess whispers. In the brightness of the day, dear God roars. Life pulses, mind imagines, emotions wave, thoughts wander. What are all these but the endless movements of One Taste, forever at play with its own gestures, whispering quietly to all who would listen: is this not you yourself? When the thunder roars, do you not hear your Self? When the lightning cracks, do you not see your Self? When clouds float quietly across the sky, is this not your very own limitless Being, waving back at you? Just a metaphor used in this little Lèse-majesté Sorry, was a bit unprecise in recycling that metaphor. Selling Water by Crocodile-River