Nemra

The solution is to understand the mechanism of the method or else your questions would be misguided. Who said that you won't have false insights? Well, the users might be fooling themselves, but actualized.org is definitely not a religion.

@Salvijus, ChatGPT can reinforce your beliefs. Don't look at LLMs as truth generating machines.

But see, you can actually understand that Christians are fooling themselves by understanding what they mean by awakening. How? Because you understand what beliefs are from your experience. You can do that; however, you can't assume that questioning without understanding the mechanism of the method should be able to (in)validate that method or that questioning must absolutely be able to (in)validate all methods. Consider that questioning is a method too.

Well, yeah. Even saying awakening could mean different things to different people. E.g., religious people would have a different idea about it, which could be to go to church and live the Christian life. Well, I think you would also agree that those premises should also be questioned.

I thought that was obvious. To me, someone who says "... it's because of awakening" doesn't say much. Well, before that you said why not attribute x,y,z to awakening, which I think also means that the person has realized thing about x,y,z. The second one is more revealing. But also depends how the terms are defined. It also could be more confusing. However, aren't there things that you have found out to be true? I don't hold things as true just because someone said it.

@zurew, let me be more clear. There is the experiencing of reality that a person could be conscious of. That experience does not have limits, which means you can infinitely zoom in or out, go left, right, up, or down, and there's no limit to the objects that can appear to you. It includes everything that is happening. If you say that someone has consciousness, then that person must experience reality, and what I said in point 2 should also apply for that person. However, point 3 is impossible to be the case in your experience; otherwise, that person's experience would be the only one happening and not yours at that moment, because of what I wrote in point 1 and 2. Therefore, if I'm having my experience, that's what's happening. If you're having your experience, that's what's happening. However, these don't happen at the same moment. Both of our experiences are imaginary in the opposite one.

@Leo Gura, I thought rats were bad by how you would describe people. 😒

@zurew, have you done meditation or used psychedelics?

I don't really have a persuasive reason for why these kinds of arguments are question-begging.

@zurew, well, knowing how much someone is relying on beliefs can be a difficult task. Of course, you cannot trust anyone. The word direct is very powerful in this case as it draws your attention to the thing that's being talked about without intermediaries. I agree. But what is important is to turn your attention on the thing that you are observing and not so much on what and how people say stuff.

I don't understand why you would think that I was relying on beliefs?

@zurew, have you ever changed your state?

@zurew, also, what you actually need is a change of state and not comparing different philosophies together endlessly to see how much compatibility they have. I have done weeks of long-form concentrated meditation that has helped me to realize a few things here and there. But I have stopped for now. However, I tried to speak what I have realized.

You want some appealing sophisticated nonsense that I have been conjuring up? I have been contemplating and observing my experience trying not to depend on other explanations. What have you been doing? However, I'm trying to understand where you are coming from.

@zurew, also, if I ever could experience from your perspective, then I would literally experience the same way as you would, but that's not happening for me right now. That's happening for you, which by the way is an imaginary thing for me. Other people experiencing reality is imaginary in my experience and in yours too. This is paradoxical. 😁 Maybe there's a better way to say this. I don't know. I'm trying not to say things that I haven't realized or use words that I'm not familiar with.

No. Sorry, but I cannot even prove to you what I'm trying to say because you think that I'm experiencing reality in your experience. First of all, you are experiencing reality. Notice that there's nothing out of that experience. You cannot run away from your experience, because wherever you go, the experience will be there. When you say that others are also experiencing reality, you are literally copying your sense of experiencing reality and pasting it onto others. Which hasn't been there at all, because all of those people that appear to you are in your experience.

Imagining that something has a separate consciousness is different from things being separated from each other by some boundary. When you say that something has consciousness, you literally believe that a whole reality exists in that thing, which you are not experiencing.

Please clarify.

Let's say others have consciousness. Then you would have to think that what and how you experience stuff is somewhat the same for others. Like, literally others should have an experience of reality. But the thing is that that's not happening at this moment in your experience and that you have only had your experience, and any experience you will have, only you will be conscious of. If you say to me that you are experiencing reality separate from me, and if I want to prove that you are experiencing it, then I should also make myself experience what you experience exactly; otherwise, it's not happening, and I'm just projecting my sense of experiencing reality onto you.

Yes, I'm imagining both of us having an individuated consciousness at the time that I'm speaking with you. What can I do? I'm not accustomed to it yet.

It's not that you don't have the mental ability to prove it. It's just that you will never find proof, which is the proof.

If I believe that I have a sperate consciousness existing with others, then yes. Other than that, I don't know and don't have answers. I have realized that much.

@Salvijus, individuated consciousness is imaginary because of logical necessity. You will never be able to prove the existence of other consciousnesses that other people have in your experience that you believe that they are experiencing something somewhat like you. You are projecting the sense of the consciousness that you are experiencing onto others in your experience, and then you think you have proved their separate existence in your experience by just forgetting that you have projected it from the beginning.