kbone

Hmmm, OK. Thought it was a good metaphor with respect to "being small". Appears to have hit a nerve.

Is there a problem, or is the question not pertinent?

If a jar is dipped into the ocean and lifted up to take a good look at it, at what point does the water stop Being the ocean? Your questions allude to assumptions. Look there.

🎯 like above 🎯Correspondence is key🎯 so below 🎯

1- Yes, the story/history is always hindsight and/or about 'someone' else. The story of Jesus is, according to him (in the story), available to everyone. An expression might sound like, we are all sisters and brothers (appearances to each other... all the world's a stage... with one ACTOR). Lots of dualish ways to express, no problem. 2- Yes, the path is the story of the transcendence, not the Realization. Most explain them together as cause-effect based on memory, unconscious of all that was 'happening' as the unfolding. 3- I'd be curious to hear your interpretation of this. Is it somewhat like the following (using some Zen ish to express)? 4- Before enlightenment, mountains are mountains and waters are waters. (lots of stuff happens, unconsciously caught up in one's separate volitional self (SVP) drama..... and then something gives way...... maybe spurring the search) After a first glimpse into Truth, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters. (At first, minor 'insights/realizations'.... then Something like a 'collapse into a little greasy spot' -as a dear friend used to say... he was so funny. Though the breakdown can be felt/experienced as a negative, it's purddy much necessary... and gloriously wild to the mind, hehe... in hindsight, of course ). After enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters. (THIS... EVERYTHING.... simples) ***In how I'd express it, it is only after the 'lower' mind has come to terms with Truth (i.e., via a consistent discerning awareness that informs it of its true nature.... aka, heart of hearts), that the clarity of 'Enlightenment' is fully apprehended. Whatcha think? Similar? Preferences or tinkers for expression?

1- My Korean mother-in-law is a devout Baptist Christian. She's not ignorant of the 'kind of person' I am, so she worries about my salvation, but she's also a little perplexed in that I do not exhibit a worry in the world, can fit right in with the various pastors that the family is associated with, will sometimes comment on Biblical literature from left field, and generally lead a well(enough)-intentioned life. A story that sums up our basic divergence of 'opinions' involves a convo with her (my wife had to translate) about her concern for us not being the types of believers she sees as necessary. I explained to her that, for the most part, I understood the things that Jesus said quite well, and we'd likely agree on most everything with a few caveats. But who I didn't really understand and/or relate to were Peter and Paul, to which she said, "But that's what the whole church is based on." I simply smiled and said, "I know." She still looked concerned, but we hugged. She has never brought it up again, and we still involve ourselves when she wants to do a reading/interpretation... and I sometimes add my bits and pieces to the convo. We sometimes laugh about them. 2- Couldn't have said these much bettererer! In fact, I refuse to add or conceptualize further. 3- Perhaps blow off researching it. Come to think of it, just stay open to what such events provide from the depths of Being. They're more important, and can provide the much-needed direct gnosis for transcending. 4- 'Lower' mind is a weird place to work it out, as doubt will always be an aspect of its conclusions. It is what it is. See #3 5- There might be useful insights and bits and pieces of aligned thinking, but it is the direct experience and quality thereof that spills forth 'from within' that is of greater value. And you obviously already understand this, which is why you are clear enough to already question the veracity. As certain depths of insight/realization, quite often another's nonsense to hardly register and/or simply fall away. That's a function of higher mind. I do not know her, so I'm just speaking generally. 6- A lot of what is attributed to Jesus makes sense so, based on what you have shared and the type of person you come across as, listen to the inner voice, 'identify with it' as if speaking to yourself, stabilize at its depths and let it 'spill over' into the daily life. Truth and honesty are aligned. Honesty gives rise to authenticity. You seem to understand that and will question the beliefs in identity and Truth as needed. Together, they bear the Grace that inspires transcendence. 7- I may have misspoke. Interesting what you wrote. 8- Don't get me started telling stories. It rarely makes sense anyway! 9- Well, to be clearerer, it was a number of events that precipitated the contemplation via singing that song. a) I had also liked and played Sympathy for the Devil (Rolling Stones). b) I'm a bit irreverent, so there's that (no apologies, since I work through it in different ways as needed). c) Months before getting the chords (back before internet and barely able to play guitar anyway), I had a cool experience of traveling with some Chishti sect Sufi's who were on a pilgrimage in North India. We talked about a LOT of stuff late into the night, but one thing that stuck out was their interpretations of Iblis (the Devil), which are varied, but a few of them stimulated some cool contemplation.... especially when he was vilified solely because he refused to bow down to Adam. I get the irreverence, hehe, and I was hot on the trail for Truth. d) Then, shortly thereafter, I found a book at a used book vendor in New Delhi by Bertrand Russell called "The Conquest of Happiness". It seemed interesting enough and you couldn't always be choosy back then, so I carried it around for a month during my escapades, reading and contemplating. I don't remember a lot of the contents, but it guided me in some deeper thoughts on persecution mania, envy,narcissism, and ow to become more aware of such forces in life. e) Then I heard a guy play "Friend of the Devil" with a great set of picking skills and a powerful voice. I'ze like, oh yeah. Awesome to hear you're a musician. Hopefully, you and the band have a similar take on life in general and/or inspire each other enough to work through inevitable 'band drama', hehe. Yeah, it does seem that when IT all starts to open up (like it has for you) the attention and devotion kind of well up from within. Due to this mind's conditioned preferences, it tends to not like church songs so much, and is more interested in exploring the themes in songs of any combination of rock-punk-folk-jazz-ish. It's not a right or wrong thang.... just mood, flow, and joy. I'll look into Robert Hunter when I get a chance... sounds like my kinda guy. 10- Likewise, brotha. Keep on keepin' on!

Aah yes, the School of Necessity. How would you describe witnessing and its value? Did you just automagically start witnessing one day, live a life of harmony, joy and witnessing, and suddenly wake up and Realize?

The comic posted above was just for humor, not meant as a judgment. The context is a 'what if' situation in it's plainest and simplest. If there's any judgment, it is on the people doing the crucifying. We still crucify peeps for their beliefs, just not literally. It is more likely that peeps are put off by Christianity because of how they view stereotypical Christians (and sometimes because they may have been around fundamentalist Christians for long enough, group all Christians in that stereotype). The same might be said for New Agers, non-dualists, fringy metaphysical groups, etc. The story of Jesus and/or the Bible as a whole offers context for penetrating the human condition or, if one really wants to get into it, fodder for linguistic forensics. But yes, if just read and believed in its literal sense alone, it quickly devolves into fundamentalism, completely mentally based, brittle, dead, and lacking any insight. I worked intensely with a community of fundamentalist Christians in Uzbekistan after having woke up, and mostly remained non-judgmentally attuned to their sense of faith, beliefs, actions, and existential 'needs' in order to understand the nuances, similarities, and differences of any belief system. One of the closer friends I made was from South Africa. His stories of fighting behind enemy lines in the Angolan Wars and the coming to the faith furthered my understanding of the value of the 'School of Necessity' required to penetrate the more esoteric aspects of any belief system. Typically what happens is that, in the end, there's a common kernel amongst them. The following Sufi story gives the gist. ______ A Persian, a Turk, an Arab and a Greek were traveling to a distant land when they began arguing over how to spend the single coin they possessed among themselves. All four craved food, but the Persian wanted to spend the coin on angur; the Turk, on uzum; the Arab, on inab; and the Greek, on stafil. The argument became heated as each man insisted on having what he desired. A linguist passing by overheard their quarrel. “Give the coin to me,” he said. “I undertake to satisfy the desires of all of you.” Taking the coin, the linguist went to a nearby shop and bought four small bunches of grapes. He then returned to the men and gave them each a bunch. “This is my angur!” cried the Persian. “But this is what I call uzum,” replied the Turk. “You have bought me my inab,” the Arab said. “No! This in my language is stafil.” All of a sudden, the men realized that what each of them had desired was in fact the same thing, only they did not know how to express themselves to each other. _______ The interpretation of the story one comes to depends on one's conscious abilities to shift outside the confines of the literalist mind. To go further into to the forensics of the story, spend time understanding grapes/wine in the Sufi context... it might even shed some light on the blood/wine aspect of the Jesus story. In fact, if one takes the time to see what was happening around the Mediterranean, the Levant, and the extended region at the time the story of Jesus played out, one will see that many of the same discussions and practices talked about here existed then. Even the assumed misunderstanding of the "_____ faith", the "must understand ___ before ___", and the preference for teachers you've mentioned in your post are still playing out, just not verbatim. The expressions typically overlap, weave, conjure insights, and isolate similar core aspects (though with seemingly different names), but the end-all Realization remains the same. It's typically the mind's cause-and-effect stories of HOW/WHY the Realization happened that creates the drama of this faith, that religion, this cause, that effect... forever spinning into more stories/beliefs in the mind. One could say such stories/beliefs are timeless....

@thierry When waking up in the morning, the mind is about as clear and disengaged as it will be for the remainder of the day. That is the best time to consciously attune to/as Presence. It's not an entity or anything one has to search for or find, it already is... just notice it upon awakening. The earlier in the morning you do this, the better. Don't even get out of bed. Just, the second you realize you have awoken, just hang in that state, and start taking deep breaths, feeling Presence as one's entire Being. No mind, no body... just Presence breathing... a sense-feeling. Slowly, the breathing will happen at its own depth and pace. Perfection. If you have a monkey mind and thoughts just keep coming up, no problem. Just take deep breaths of/as Presence that 'swoop up' the thoughts and exhale them into the ether of existence. Do the same for bodily pain; just inhaling the pain in Presence, and release. Always notice Presence that always is and available every morning before engaging mind for as long as one can and/or likes. It's own reward. Typically what happens is that the clarity of/as Presence that engages mind consciously will nurture a quality of thought and subsequent intuition, decisions, or reactions. The more attuned one is to the ever-available Presence throughout the day (it ain't always easy, sure), the more conscious one is of engaging the mind. Have time before-during-after lunch? Sure, settle into it (it won't be as easy later in the day due to the mind's momentum... no problem), but it will be easier as you notice it more and more as ever-Presence. It's own reward. Conscious.

That was a well made video. As a kid, I had a fascination with the Hermetics, and later on dabbled with some smaller writings that made their way to along the path, but I never looked too deeply or made a coherent study of them. This video does a good job on distilling some key points that very much align with my own expression, so I rezzed with it, kinda nodding along. Purddy coolio. Thank you for sharing.

Schrödinger's cat is alive after all!

Good stuff. I rez with the expressions you share. There's a noetic quality to it that is indicative of a 'being Here' sanity. Bueno.

This is why I differentiate between 'experience' and 'realization'. The experience of 'god' comes and goes, and is often marked in memory as an event (but yes, there is a memorable aspect or facet), but Realization is deeper, so to speak, and what was Realized is Known to be right Here, right Now, prior to all and inclusive of movements of mind (some more diluted/deluded than others). There's no 'need' per say to go 'get more', but of course, it's always nice to take a walk in nature, meditate, whatever to drop off the mind's content and/or detach from it to put it into fresh perspective, especially after a hard day or an intense psychological/physical period (like a new job, a death in the family, a health issue, etc). It's a bit of a stretch to say that if one 'has an experience of being God', one will automatically have a nice life. That may be a bit wishful, automagical thinking ...." It's important not to have expectations about how truth should be and what it would be like" (Rogachevski, A., 2025). But, the 'pursuit of Enlightenment' will be debunked by the Realization, as it will be SEEN as always having been Present, available, Truth... beyond/prior to the mind's conception of it. It's a bit of a doozy to the mind, hehe. Such a lil' rascal! PS: I like how the Anne Frank pic shows up at the base of a Nietzsche quote. Both a great stories in humanity. I'd like to hear your interpretation of the quote.

Right, the word 'god' brings up all sorts of misconceived notions, often sending the uninformed mind into resistance mode, rabbit holes, and whatever else. Simply put, one needs to be aware of the differing degrees of ignorance and/or awareness at play in the phases of transcendence, (Realization), emanation, and immanence. The Zenny Oxherding pics allude to this. That said, it can be quite hard to intuit where an appearing mind's depth and breadth are coming/emanating from with respect to the contexts one interacts within and the topic(s) at hand here.

Speaking of the mind's delusion <ahem>

Yes. The story, as it is told, is not so much about how it is more-often-than-not expressed and believed. It is a story about how a sellf-identified peep, lost in their delusion, walks away from all of the cultural and familial conditioned baggage (a spin on Jesus' "Lost Years"), has a full on Realization (Self/Truth ----> out of the cave), and then comes back to society (into the lion's lair - the cave) to tell everyone. It is the story of a journey of SELF discovery that anyone can take. The only question is, do they have the willingness to stick it through (i.e., it is demanding) and the self-honesty (i.e., to transcend the egoic and existential boundaries that are indicative of the mind's conditioned structure). This is what the Greeks referred to: Truth (wisdom- path of jnani in Vedanta)) / Beauty/Love (beloved- path of devotion in Vedanta) / ,,,,, the Good. While Christianity may have some deeps roots in Judaism, it's conception and/or structure was also heavily influenced by Hellenic Neoplatonic thought of the times. Even then, most do not know just how chaotic those times were and/or how wily and spiritually incorrect many 'practitioners' were at the time, hehe. The Bibles, as they are in their present states, are the outcomes of 1000s upon 1000s of renditions, transcriptions, and interpretations. As such, in the way I see it, one has to gnosis how to read the dang book to flesh out its subtleties. Or maybe its just this mind's propensity to look for the markings pointing toward Truth. That said, the people of today, are in some ways more 'sophisticated', and that's not necessarily always positive, but at least we're not crucifying, stoning, and banning (at least not literally, hehe). It seems that using words like God, 'reality', realization(s), consciousness/Consciousness, experience/experiencer... and all the rest, like any words, are liable to hit anything. Let's face it, things like identity, self, appearances, reality, etc are all wrapped up in the mind's associations that comprise its world view. Being clear of it and having it all out front is important to then explore such books in all their majesty. The word 'gGod' is especially loaded, and it seems to just add unnecessary confusion and/or resistance. The word 'reality' is similar, but every mind thinks they understand what it refers to. The same could be said for 'infinity', but as long as it is understood to defy the mind's conception, it is more likely to hit the mark. Anton's 'cloud analogy' works well as it expresses the mind's delusion. The confusion is mostly due to the varying degrees to which the mind's 'episteme is informed by actual gnosis' (i.e., the clarity born of the degree to which Realization informs the mind) ---- or lack thereof.

1- When someone is open enough and 'ready', who knows what will emerge. Life is a trip, indeed. You do NOT sound like the everyday type of follower of Jesus Christ... coming across as a little blasphemous at times, if I do say so myself, hehe. I've worked within a missionary organizations, and what you've shared might cause quite a stir, or at least a 'proper steering' you back into the fold. 2- Do you actually forget the illusions, or do you just see through their falsity, wich informs the mind to just let them go? I tend express the journey 'toward' Truth as via negativa in which beliefs and conditioned 'truths' are transcended, leading to a higher order clarity. After all, just like in any True/False test, the statement is either entirely true, or it's false. 3- Thank you for sharing. Have you looked into the phenomena of channeling? Even schools of psychology often refer to it as a tapping into a higher order of thinking and/or sense of self. It's been a while, so don't quote me on that.... check on it yourself if interested. Start clarifying the questions you want to ask and in order of the depth you want to pursue. See what happens. 4- Doubts are ALWAYS an aspect of mind's understanding. That's the nature of duality; not good, not bad.... just an aspect of its functioning. 5- What did you find interesting, doubtful, or in alignment with your own takes (thus far) in @puporing 's take? 6- So Jesus was no different than any other 'person'? I am always interested in trying to intuit the non-dual aspects of different systems, and then juxtapose what is seen as potentially at odds with the consensus trance of its 'believers' versus those that might actually 'know' something.... like you're alluding to here. 7- Please square this with #3, as you never mentioned Jesus/Christ in that paragraph. 8- Great to hear you've found peace, GD. Sounds like it may have been hard earned. 9- I used to pick out and play a rendition of 'Friend of the Devil' that sent an audience of 2 wild (Disclsimer: One of them liked how I used her name instead of 'Anne Marie', hehe). A majority of the songs I play have at least something related to or alludes to the journey, appreciation of awakening, transcendence, and/or non-dual awareness. For example, I contemplated the power of forgiveness in 'Friend of the Devil', as in how I see it, the hardest forgiveness come by is the forgiveness of oneself. The deepest and most authentic forgiveness doesn't seem to be able to come from the mind... doubt always rears its head as part of that endeavor. That's why 'conversions' must also be authentic, or it's just more like a new coat of paint. What you've expressed is more authentic and honest. Thanks for sharing, man. Peacely.....

I suspect there's a lot of confusion as most people will try to explain Realization away. I'm in no way saying that @gettoefl is doing that, as I neither have read enough of him nor know him. The problem is that words are dualistic and only understood between interlocutors if there is (frame of) reference for the words/concepts being used by each peep involved in the convo or discussion. Furthermore, as I've noticed on this website, many folks throw words like god, truth, realization, etc around pretty freely and without hardly any consideration for what they may be referring to in the first place. Sometimes there's a clarity in the messaging being expounded (which is nice), while at others, there's a degree of intuitive understanding presented, but perhaps the mind has not quite yet been informed enough and/or worked out the ramifications of what it means to their world view/philosophy. Further down the line, sometimes remarks sound disingenuous, flippant, and/or like sandcastle building, at yet others it sounds like repetitions that they are attempting to justify in their own minds and/or fit in with the 'dominant philosophy and its adherents' of the message board. The line of questioning you are using in your discussions with various folks is important (and I applaud doing so), as it is the very process by which you penetrate the ideas/concepts' meanings with respect to the mind's present state and/or depth of awareness, which can then be used in the deeper contemplation/meditation that you seem to practice (could be wrong, not sure). The very little that I know you, I sense you have really done well to isolate the parameters in which mind moves and/or its limitations. But then, I am not sure how you define 'mind', so maybe share that in order to share insight on how your study treats it, or the depths to which you've explored it in contemplation/meditation. Since you seem interested in the limitations of philosophy/science, the mind, and meditation, there are some concepts that might be of interest, but I do not want to just start throwing a bunch of them out if you are not interested. As you've stated, you seem to be at a nice plateau after having gone through a rather challenging period of finding a very workable sanity. That may be enough (at least for now), as it is conducive to being an actual adult (not just in age, but in authentic self awareness), which is no longer pulled in to the conditioned disorder based childhood traumas, mama-pappa issues, and the like. Until then, perhaps the following blurbs can help provide a perspective. Philosophers are peeps who know less and less about more and more, until they know nothing about everything. ---- and who the what knows, maybe Self/Truth Realization emerges in the mind's complete and utter surrender. Scientists are peeps who know more and more about less and less, until they know everything about nothing. ---- and who the what knows, maybe Self/Truth Realization emerges in the mind's complete and utter surrender. NOTHING is unexplainable. EVERYTHING is a mystery. Peacely...

Exactamente.

Yes, the honesty must be an aspect of the inquiry. Simplifying was also a big part of the journey. It's possible to now look back on the adventure with a bit of nostalgia while giggling at the insanity of it all, but there's a deep awareness of what precipitated the 'need'. All good.

Yeah, the confusion that many of the sand dealers have created has left things in quite a mess. It doesn't help that the journey itself is quite destabilizing and confusing already. Sometimes the intentions of the nonsense seems meant to push the mind over/through a threshold, or just to throw the mind enough that it drops and gets an insight. At others, it's apparent they have no grasp of what they're selling. It's almost like a mento-physical three-card monte routine, so it's rife with deception, much like the mind's little 'separate volitional person' game.

Um, OK. But once Truth has been apprehended, and the mind has been relegated to its role as the cool tool for navigating the world, there's also freedom to interact within contexts of a discussion... maybe even share jokes, insights, and stories. Throwing out ND lingo and reasoning and/or reducing every discussion to bare bones Truth-talk at every turn is not necessary. However, if one is still in the process of burning through the mind's nonsense in a post-apocalypse mode, I do understand. Some call it cleaning house, and it can get rabid and feverish. All good. The mind can be enjoyed whilst not necessarily always trusting it; it has its flaws, to be sure. No biggie. It's kinda snorta like an existential relationship with 'someone' you know all too intimately, love them nonetheless, bu take the time to help them stay conscious.

Sand does not quench, so no need to guzzle. And don't trust water dealers out next to the mirages, hehe.

So you see, the analogy rings 'true', perhaps to a higher order of mind, releasing a degree of tension. Where and when those insights will arise is unknown, but can be like clues to a direction to take. Always beginner's mind.... not knowing, but brave enough to flow. Sure, it can be characterized as a seeing through (clarity), a letting go (contentment/calmness), a deconstruction/dissolution (samadhi), etc. Words won't do it justice, simply because words engage the mind and are liable to hit anything. I have always been curious about such neurochemical aspects, but don't know much about the veracity of such claims with respect to cause-and-effect. Maybe you can share what you know. But yes, there is a cautionary aspect to such an undertaking. It is quite challenging to the mind to more-or-less turn itself inside out in an attempt to 'understand' what's pointed to and question one's beliefs (inquiry/contemplation), and/or attempt to subvert it entirely (meditation). Massive amounts of solitude in nature, making music, reading literature, and contemplation helped to work through this mind's vagaries. But yeah, it was dodgy there for quite a bit, hehe.