kbone

Yes, such experiences do tend to get conflated. Mind is such a rascal! 😅

You're fine. You KNOW, and no longer 'need' the pack's attention and/or validation, but you still enjoy playing in the waves. You're simply adjusting to the dying momentum of a world view once ruled by the mind's delusion. Occasionally, it is still noticed, but it no longer grips the attention and/or creates barriers in the way it used to. That's what 'seeing through the illusion' refers to. 'Like above, so below' type of thingy.... Just do not get attached to Nothingness, and ease into the paradigm of This/Suchness. Hugs.

Yes. And it was. In hindsight, being Present to the mind was key. It was also cool to be Present to the mind's symptomatic PTSD (quite normal), seeing it as 'objectively' as possible, not getting pulled into the story too much (thus extending 'negative' effects in repetitive fashion), not denying the mind's function/needs, allowing the psycho-physical to play out as needed. It was not so much about some self. The via negativa/neti neti that you find limiting is what you're actually participating in. You do not trust others (nor should you really), and you don't like the paradoxes of others, but you love your own. In a way, one only trusts what is giving rise to their own lives and, due to their belief in their self, think they only trust their 'self'. It's subtle, and in the movements of mind. Via one's neti neti, one may or may not arrive and realize the fully fertile Nothingness, then 'think/express' that such words refer to something flat, boring, and dead. Some minds, in turn, might express the same concept as Infinite/Unlimited, and then act out their own version of speerchal narcissism. 🥱🤣 It's especially common for peeps from "Individualistic", "Low-Context cultures" (can look it up) and societies to misunderstand, caste dispersion on, and/or distrust the direct translations of 'reasoning' and writing styles found in "High-Context Cultures". That's a limited perspective. As such, one's conception of logic, or 'objective' world view is hardly universal (or objective), and might even come across as maniacally egoistic and deluded. Good to keep one's perception in check; question it. Mind loves a good yarn though, thinking it can pick up one end of it, and follow it to reach the other end in order to find Truth. Years spent in the endeavor of following the string, what does it find? Paradox.... and then mind spends the next X number of years justifying it, twisting and contorting itself to sound clearer, better, more logical... and all the rest, maybe taking 5meo to express it in wilder, cooler, or more intense sounding ways. They mistake utter simplicity for being shallow, limited, petty, or lacking something, and get caught up in the web of their own thoughts. I've always suspected that that is why Zen Masters sometimes just say to self-righteous and cogitating minds, "Shut up you poor groveling fool, get on the mat, and don't come back til you're dead." There's a great Zen story about Hakuin and his master that exemplifies it purddy well. Many here will just find it as a story of oppression/repression, failing to see the larger context, missing the nuanced implications (i.e., Japanese is a very High-Context culture, as are others). The Zen stories and koans are used for a purpose, not to express an explicit (inexpressible) Truth. Is Zen for everyone? No, it is not. Wasn't for me either (again, this mind-body seemed more aligned with Rumi, crazy wisdom-type stuff, nature, and/or an expressive approach), but I understand and can respect what they're pointing to. Peeps here often talk about intensity/dedication/devotion with their own culturo-personal twists, but then turn around and scorn other perspectives of the same ilk. Around and around it goes... god must be dying laughing. Wild! 🤣🥰🔥 The true story just shared may simply sound like a cool story. Perhaps most are not interested in the Nothingness it could point to, and just more attached to ITS apparent nature. Makes sense. Others might prefer to condemn it all as ego and wish to persecute such 'devilry' (ego often gets a bad rap when it is not understood for what it is).... all good. Makes sense, too. One's free to contemplate, or not... always free to question... always free. A great scenario is they arrive at The Great I Don't Know that rocks their world (some might have a reference for that,,, I dunno). Come, SEE for your self ; 'kill it' and set it free once and for all, centerless... the only certainty there is. Mind you, the mind is never certain.

Yes, no one knows how it will all turn out. Be open to what the limiteless inspires, even though the limited perception is all one has to work with... some peeps go forwards through the fog, others back up through it... ever approaching an unforeseen cliff. That last step is a doozy.

Thank you for the honesty. That says a lot. Right, nothing anyone says means anything with respect 'to' Truth, but what eventually SEES is indicative of the depth of penetration, maybe even Nothingness awakes to what it meant by the simple word. Ever had a gun to your head, with the distinct possibility that one of your organs could soon be harvested if you went down the dark black alley with the perpetrators? It was a cool horror in which conscious existence came to an extreme focal point, depth remained calm, communicated in a second language in an attempt to reach a deeper layer, and found a way. Enjoy your courtroom analyses.

Love it!! Hopefully, you got a solid belly laugh!! That's a good example of the split mind in action!

I tend to read and decode speerchal literature like a bee. Most of modern society seems to read and decode it like a lawyer. I have a pretty good running theory of why that is. If one can't consciously use Intelligence (yes, open intuition gives rise to gnosis) to SEE the nuanced similarities between what Rumi, Huang Po, Plotinus, etc were pointing to, it's the lawyer archetype in charge. Instead, they use carrots of words, logic and reason to pull their own and others' attention (intuition) away from Wholeness, to prove a point, be right, and 'justify', never leaving the comfort of the courtroom in their mind. I have a pretty good idea of what gives rise to that conditioned behavior. Meanwhile, the BEE that SEES just continues on their way, collecting nectar and honey to take back to the hive, participating in the very existence so perfectly, so symphonically being expressed as the Divine (Rumi the Bee), One Mind (Huang Po the Bee), The One (Plotinus the Bee), and many other words. There are many other known and unknown BEES of the One Hive in the clearest sky, each with their own tastes and type of nectar... even you. Rumi would understand this. He and I have had some major discussions. We ripped through and caste aside all the doubts inherent in the mind's capacities, burned through the illusory walls that previously held up our senses and beliefs of existence, opened up to the realization, and saw the moon together. No more pointers, no more effort... IN/AS LOVE. We also realized 'together/as one' that no one can unspin the yarn of another's conditioned thoughts, much less undo the knots that bind them. We CAN tell them, "It is possible", and maybe point out some potential. Enjoy the exploration, brother, bring back some nectar, and make some honey. Peacely~~

I liked your preceding expression, so "liked what i wrote and wanted to hear more answers in my style of answering" sounds about right. All good? Peacely

I'm talking about living in nonduality (i.e., sahaja samadhi as the 'awareness-state'), in which well-Being is not dependent on anything experienced, unobstructed by any mental overlays with respect to existential questioning. I don't mind using verbiage that's playful, so I'm glad you responded so positively to the expression 'dealio'. I like to play in the waves of existence with gratitude. No reason to push. It's effortless. Mentating an existential puzzle takes effort. Putting it 'perfectly' back together takes effort. Can it be fun? Sometimes, sure, but it's not necessary for Peace. But, to be radically upfront and honest, it took a LOT of trying to do so before realizing the movement for what it was. Hugs, brah!

It's interesting to note that the old maps of 'the world as we knew it' use to have scary looking dragons and strange sea creatures meant to signify "the unknown" and/or "potential dangers" off on the side or in the lower corners. Even in such convos exploring the known/unknown boundaries that hold up one's sense of existence, such fears are bound to arise. Peeps also tend to 'fear' black holes, which are nothing but collapsed/collapsing stars. Understanding the general flow of existence, I see them for what they are, wink, and smile. Big Love

Purddy gooooood. Would you say what you point to as Love is emergent in the absence of conditioned fear?

Roight. Effortlessness is the emergent word used to point to a mind informed of and aware of its 'secondary status'. the mind is a useless tool for GNOSSISING, and it can only be 'needed' in worldly (dream) affairs that arise. While the mind 'can' be used to ponder and explore existential matters with appearing 'others', it is noticed that it can also be a slippery slope, and that that is when/where beliefs are born. It can also be noticed that the more such activity/efforting is done, the more one potentially wades out into the river of ignorance, where the currents can carry the attention away, falling into greater and greater confusion and delusion. Lots of so called self-proclaimed 'teachers' do such things, not having settled into the Realization enough, unaware of the mind's degree of ignorance. It can be hard to gauge the appearance of other minds' 'depth of being informed', but mind-driven peeps do all sorts of efforting, believing all sorts of nonsense, while ignorant of effortlessness. Plus, in the age of screen peeps, language is overly relied upon, somewhat cut off from the non-linguistic forms of communication. Chatting on line and/or in relations with otherness are worldly dealios in which the mind is engaged. The apparent mind (a tool) typically uses the tool of language to navigate, negotiate, communicate.... in this dreamlike realm. But language, mostly geared for the appearing world of cause-effect, can seem almost awkward for these speerchal matters. So, here 'we are' having these convos online about the ND perspective which, practically speaking, undermines even speerchuality. Most self-identified peeps get caught up in the inherent paradoxes presented in such discussions due to linguistically conditioned perceptions. They end up engaging from a self-identified perception, resistant to the cognitive dissonance, unable to be open to much less SEE 'from' the ND perspective. But it is a very simple twist that, once SEEN, canNOT be unseen. The bell canNOT be unrung, and it has been echoing the Truth for apparent millenia in the HERE and NOW.

With respect to Huang Po, it could be that you either use a different word/logic than the one he's intending. Your use of 'infinite' to point to the same inconceivability, yet the mind is and will constantly try to slice and dice IT, grasp IT, name it, organize it, and all the rest in order to 'get IT'. At some point, the infinite futility dawns on the mind.... collapse. I suspect that Huang baby and you would get along just fine, and he'd just start laughing with you when you two finally got to that pregnant pause. Dzogchen is the ND wing ding of the Tibetans, so that doesn't surprise me. But yeah, most Tibetan's are tongue tied and mind closed with the general 'lesser schools' of Tibetan Buddhism. I dig the quote you provided. You're struggling with empty/nothing, assuming it is too nihilistic to be real, or too oppressive to be a teaching, when it's simply an innocence that can only be divided and missed by the mind. Don't worry, there are 'reasons' the mind can't know and/or remember ITS presence that is layering over and obscuring. The list you've compiled there are some great ones. I'll check out Longchempa,,, dunno that one. Some schools of thought and/or the translations of the words don't always work to help readers go from perception to perspective. Like poetry, so rez, some don't. No biggie. Sometimes, you'll read the exact same thing you rejected a week ago, but you'll see it in a different light, and you might see how it could have some value for some seeker. Or maybe it can be fun to revise it in a way that expresses the core pointer better, or in a way that you think might slip past people's consensus trance thinking. Sometimes, they're just wrong or perhaps have some agenda. I can zip through most any book on the subject, and there's likely only going to be 5-10% that I think might be the core worth focusing on, and chunk the rest. But everyone else might find value in other parts, or miss the trajectory of the whole dealio. Is the mind open to the potential that, while it likes to use the word Infinity, it may just be its momentum of having been 'the previous knower' that is continuing its attempts to grasp, name, and organize IT, instead of stabilizing as the very core/Source of/as all conscious experience right Here, right Now prior to mind itself? Story: The devil and a friend of his were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend said to the devil, 'What did that man pick up?' He picked up a piece of Truth,' said the devil. 'That is a very bad business for you, then,' said his friend. 'Oh, not at all,' the devil replied, 'I am going to let him organize it.'

Don't concern yourself with problems if you think there's nothing of value in them. Be as ruthless and unconcerned as you like. I ain't selling nothing. I had thought you might be more interested in the bit of criticism with respect to your infinitely open and limitlessness model. Does the main point of the criticism make any sense to you? You're bringing up anecdotal situations, treating massive schools of thought as monolithic, narrowly defined (by you) entities, and drawing conclusions, and I don't really know what to do with all the questions. Are they rhetorical or is there something particular that's actually troubling your peace of mind, blocking your ability to look directly? Maybe, as an exploration, look at the 3-4 main branches of what you call Buddhism, and see how they differ. Just stick with Hinayana, Mahayana, and Ch'an/Zen for starters. Each have very different focuses, intents, practices, overlaps, and so on.... much like any other major religion or speerchal school. I mean, if you are really intent on just trashing Buddhism, you will at least have a more informed way of doing so. Hugs, brotha.

It really is simple, yes.

That's very honest, and it exemplifies a special innocence. Super bueno. It's good to not rely on and limit oneself to definitions.... ease into the subtleties. What if I asked you use YOUR intuition to spontaneously decide which one 'exemplifies' Love more, a rock or water. Which would you choose? Don't think about it; just spontaneously decide. The immediate answer seems obvious, right? Look at your choice. Then, using the mind, reverse-engineer the intuited answer, and discover the nuances that gave rise to the mind's 'final answer'. Really try hard to flesh it out. You're peering into Intelligence at work, wherein which their are these identifiable archetypal dealios that we all share as a humanity at play, when our minds are less influenced by familial, societal, and cultural struggles. That's true contemplation, not the reliance on the mind's constructs, buttresses, and barriers.... that bind. Be free with your thinking, but sensitive to the receptivity afforded by one's openness to 'higher self'... Intelligence. Plus, the other cool ting to notice is that you are participating in an active contemplation that has been carried out for thousands of years by laymen, thinkers, metaphysical juggernauts, and unknown seers.... but it's of a higher order than the everyday grind to find. It's not about right or wrong, but about 'making' sense. It might be labeled as 'elevating' in its profundity... a simple paradox to notice and appreciate.

I wouldn't call sahaja 'rapturous', but more like EXTRAordinary... the suchness of existence in/as the unfolding, miraculous Present. Sure, at times it has a glowy, coolio dealio to it though. Depends on the state... of mind in contexts. Does that make sense?

Simply working with mind-made definitions can trip up the mind, and peeps get all crazy, contort their minds in arguments, oneupmanship games , and all the rest . So, imo/experience, it is much bettererer to learn experientially, in solitude, taking the time to experiment and see for one's self. The worldly order is so caught up in the levels, definitions, and competition, when in actuality, we're talking about the nuances of waves, layers, subtleties, and self-evident certainty. ALL is NOT TWO, but when using the mind, we can notice and play with DISTINCTIONS. The nuances you speak of can be noticed via meditation, playing with the types of samadhi, referring to the Plotinus model, and contemplating the nuances of the samadhis. This has a twofold effect: it doesn't rely on mind-based stuff to 'verify', so much as to USE the mind to report, leaving it OPEN to notice and explore the 'higher, more subtle' nuances.... CONSCIOUSLY. In the system of samadhis, 'nirvikalpa ' is often considered 'the highest level' with respect to meditation due to its degree of 'emptiness'. Note that this is not Realization per se, since we're talking states here. Hard core meditators seem to like to tinker with these, compare and contrast, and share nuances to play with: savikalpa, sabija, nirbija.... whole bunch of them, but I didn't tinker or experiment with that many of them consciously (just took it on as an interest). If one is looking at Plotinus' model, one will see that with meditation, folks are typically playing in the existential waves of the SOUL level, shifting back and forth between personal and impersonal consciousness (or a bit higher, up into the higher self/ 'Intellect' (Nous- not to be confused with left-brainish/intellect) on occasion, maybe picking up some of the energetic woweezowees, or some cool, peaceful clarity. Whereas, experience would be more of the physical nature, in which the environment, society, jobs, running errands, etc are interacted with via mind (Note: all this can be a form of meditation, too, mind you). Nirvikalpa samadhi is basically just consciously 'emptying' the content of consciousness (mouthful, hehe) to a pinpoint-like state, but again, it is not realization per se. It is more like high-level Nous in Plotinus' model, perhaps even floating up there 'next to' The One, somewhat "consciously knocking on the door", hehe. The shift into realization of The One is noticeable, but oddly not that 'memorable' in itself (for want of a better word), though the effects are noticeable on the mind, in the quality of grounding in 'experiential life', etc. It was during one of these forays in which the mind was informed that Realization is acausal; "I" can't force 'my' way into The One ('I/me' are not even present). Meditation is more like a 'making oneness prone' to realization. They say prayer is like talking to 'god/The One'; whereas, meditation is like listening.... receptive. For mind-locked folks trying to figure it out, it can seem paradoxical, and peeps get all worked up for nothing, giving in to unconscious desires to dominate, be right, be the best, knock down others, find more whatever, and all the rest. Tranquiiiiillooooo. However, once it is fully Realized that "form is formlessness, formlessness is form", one has settled the mind into its secondary role. and is in a more-or-less 'normalized', awareness-state of sahaja samadhi type of dealio, one is much more aware of when one has consciously touched/entered mind and via which the dualities are at play. Life is much smoother, even when confronting the vagaries of life (i.e., right HERE, right NOW). As such, nirvikalpa samadhi is seen, not as moot, nor even all that necessary at all, but still nice, especially saaaay, before a long day of interacting with a large group of close family members who may be a bit at odds with each other! On those kinds of day, the waves of existence can get a bit tumultuous, and the tempests are rearing their sirens. Good to notice the potential pattern in advance, fear not, and go in grounded in/as awareness. Tranquiiiilooooo... The Peaceth that Passeth ALL Understandingeth.....

Sure, every school of thought has its issues and/or gaping holes, I reckon. Some of them are based on a general cart-before-the-donkey fallacy, others may have felt they had isolated and found better method(s) or ways of expressing. None of them will 'save' you, but none of them can 'block' you either. Will there be some trial and error? Absofuckinlutely. Some earlier SEERs saw this mind thingy and likely addressed it in a way that made sense to them, so they began to spell it out and hash it out in their minds as best they could. SEERs were 'recognized', some peeps believed them, others saw it the same way, schools were founded, arguments between them hashed out, lineages were kept, etc etc etc. There have always been fakers, thieves, and con artists. The regions between the Pacific Ocean and the Mediterranean (and elsewhere, of course) were teaming with thousands of schools of thought, systems of beliefs, and types of practice. I do not think of the biggies as monolithically as many. The variation, sub-schools, overlaps, and borrowings were immense. Some outlandish schools even gave rise to what would eventually become the field of science, with all its own schools, arguments, lineages, etc. It's a fascinating bit of history to delve into if one wants to take some time out and explore. And now, they all seem to be converging again, and everyone continues to hash it out in their minds, just like humanity has for thousands of years... purddy coolio. Seekers start as swimming in maya, a momentum of ignorance that gives rise to the belief that "I/the me" is separate from the perceivable world. All of the sensory data and mental conditioning are woven seamlessly together, along with this simple (and powerful) thread of ignorance. For example, up to 50% of the 'physical' brain is used in sorting just the visual data coming in, and so when someone says,"You are the tree", the mind does its usual protests, rejections and misunderstandings take place, and it goes on and on, based on how deeply the mind has failed to grasp the pointer, due to its ignorance of what certain teachings point to. Seekers of Truth or Self mostly think they are looking for something else, but it seems what is actually happening is that they are burning through ignorance (not stupidity, but a structure of existential misperception). You present negative criticisms of the via negativa/neti neti aspects of certain schools for your own reasons, assumptions, and perspectives. Based on them, you aim to present potentially better or more optimal ways that your mind prefers to approach it. That's fine. To be critical, though, the way it sounds to me is that you are also putting the cart before the donkey. The infinite openness and limitless aspects of the view your mind is proposing sound nice, rewarding, and advantageous, but it also seems to have forgotten HOW you came to these conclusions (and subsequent criticisms of other schools). Undoubtedly, there has been an ample amount of failure (in my book, futility is necessary), which has required the mind to process and/or release and negate a lot of baggage and ignorance, clearing and emptying the mindset of its previous barriers. You've enjoyed a certain degree of space and clarity in the mind as fruit of your endeavors. Does that sound about right? So, could you have arrived at these conclusions without that general process? It takes a lot of failure to get out of one’s own way, which is what the neti neti/via negativa alludes to. It's how the mind discovers its limitations. Sure, in hindsight, it’s easier to see some of the insanity, silliness and wrong turns, as well as the many shoulda/coulda/wouldas. But, to this mind, it’s also understood that it all unfolded and was done --still -- simply---HAPPENING PERFECTLY SO. Couldn’t have happened any other way in order for it to happen exactly as it did. Hard to explain, but maybe someone else had the same impression. Gratitude for the whole shebang. If the mind hadn't been so delusional or was more conscious of its ignorance, it would have played out differently. In general, what changed over time was noticing and recognizing the space prior to the train(wreck) of thought, becoming more aware.... conscious of my patterns of thought/behavior. Most peeps have repetitive patterns that play out in almost predictable ways, once they become conscious of the general trajectory. Good friends, they say, are best when they point them out. Notice, take note, and become conscious of them more, and they may begin to simply fall away... naturally. Or maybe, in a moment of clarity, one notices the repetitive negative pattern in progress, takes a pause, sees the mind gaining momentum, and seizes the opportunity to consciously turn into it, righting the vessel, opening a whole new set of possibilities that the previous unconscious barrier hid from view. Conscious, spacious presence of mind in context.... right Here, right Now. Gotta go.

Yep, always more ways to attempt to say/describe. If you think it's misleading, don't use it. Yep, appearance games happen, as do tar baby arguments. Not interesting.

What is pointed to (call it whatever you want) has no attributes. There will always be more questions, because the ignorance and confusion are born of the mind (i.e., at the 'level' of the mind, which cannot see beyond itself, but can be informed by Realization). In memory, I've always been intrigued by the fact that 'Nothing' was the first word that emerged in the mind when I first inquired mentally about 'what just happened' just after the initial massive collapse, so there's that. It was more than descriptive though, IF ya know what I mean. Existential clarity like no other emerging in/as ITS profundity,,, There isn't really anything one can say about Nothingness, so there's always more to say. Nothing is unexplainable. 👁️ Everything is a mystery.

The concepts of Limitless/Open point to the exact same realization of Nothingness which, is also the same as Tao. If one thinks it's flat, boring, lacking, etc, one hasn't realized it as the formlessness/Presence (but, right, more concepts -dual in their nature/function-... without which communication is impossible). Problems for the unrealized: They are just concepts, until fully realized right HERE, right NOW for what they point to, which just so happens to be right HERE, right NOW. If they are only sensed as potential, they are not practical. If they are fleeting, they are impermanent. If only reasonably derived from disjointed moments of clarity and/or drug-induced woweezowees, they are woven together via mental processes. It's like going to a restaurant that serves only menus. Makes for a scrumptiously good read, but lacks true Limitless Nothingness, without which, all appears in limited and limiting fashion. Furthermore, what is Beloved doesn't appear either (hint: if it hasn't, the mind gets antsy). In/As Limitless Awareness-Stillness-Nothingness, limitless Consciousness-Movement-Everything arises. Form is formless; formlessness is form. Sahaja The mind, typically attenuated and fixated on its story, goals, logic, conclusions, and housing the fully clothed and conditioned finite self, cannot fathom its depths and infinite potential. But the mind can be investigated, unwound, unraveled, and put in its place; informed of its secondary status. Just doing that, one can reap the rewards of relatively conscious human adulthood. Anyone care for some water with their menu? 🥛

Wikipedia: Harada has been criticized for his support of the Japanese War-endeavors.[4] A famous quote from Harada, cited in Zen at War, is: [If ordered to] march: tramp, tramp, or shoot: bang, bang. This is the manifestation of the highest Wisdom [of Enlightenment]. The unity of Zen and war of which I speak extends to the farthest reaches of the holy war [now under way]. Wonder if that included the rape and pillage of the entire Korean peninsula for 30 years and the Nanjing Massacre?

Equanimity, yes. Even after all the nonsense 'searching' got me back to exactly where I've always been... prodigal son style. Don't really care for too much ChatGPT... too artificial for my tastes, though it can be a useful tool, hehe. You didn't even ask it about my metaphor? What about me, me, meeeeeeee!

What? Pointed out where? I'll check back later. Busy today.