kbone

Yes, it is very good to not want peeps to fall into the traps that narcissists use ensnare their targets for use, abuse, and refuse. Two of my brothers married into families full of them, and paid the price dearly, as have their children. This is another thing I agree with you on; narcissism is indeed rampant in modern society, especially with all the online activity people are involved in. I typically avoid those situations, as well. I am sorry you see me that way. If you could, in order to use me as a good model for the narcissistic vampire you see me as, could you put together a few toxic quotes that I have written to you in the contexts we have shared that made you feel so abused? Perhaps, I took your persona as being a forceful one and fully intent on breaking the walls, and went too far somewhere that caused you to be so hurt and/or angry. Maybe I was just wrong about the context, or something. Not really sure. That goes for anyone else, also, if I have indeed stepped over the line with you. It might help us all to understand the kind of monster that I supposedly am. I'll refrain from any salutations as they can be perceived as anything at this point.

I don't hate the story any more, though I used to. I do hope you find peace beyond the trauma, my brother. We're all anonymous here, and I ain't selling nothing. Don't believe me. Don't search. FIND!!!! I do love you as part of this life, and I take full responsibility for having been honest. I'll tell my super strong wife/best friend of 25 years and my brothers who have been my other best friends for 56 years that you think I'm a raging narcissist. If I could, I would tell all the people who have trusted me and worked long hours with no pay in my profession, trying our best to improve educational standards around the world. They might be interested to know. I guess this means you hate the words I've shared. Welp, OK. If you want to carry on trashing a fellow message board member, welp, OK. I won't stop you. It needs to come out somehow. At some point, there's no hiding it anyway. Better that it's worked out here.

Teşekkür ederim kardeşim Kardeşçe kucaklaşma 🤗🫂

Yeah, I reckon sometimes it is something that just shows up when a person has a balanced kind of mind... or something. Who knows. There are quite a few 'speerchal schools' that convey something along the lines of a well-integrated 'feminine-masculine spirit' as being a goal/emanation of sorts. I sensed that about you in a number of your posts, so I was just curious. You mentioned being a model, but also had this masculine presence in your words. Hugs, Sista 😍

I did not think Turkiye!! My wife and I have ALWAYS been amazed by so many aspects of your country and have always wanted to visit there! 😍😎 Much love to you and yours, Brother 🤟🏼

Fascinating. Oooookay. Thanks for telling us how your mental structure perceives balanced feedback, makes your reflected sense of self feel (triggered), and then proceeds to defend and to lash out. I happen to like some of your perspectives and have expressed certain agreements, but when this kind of thing happens.... I'm simply at a loss. "Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it" "If I love myself, I love you. If I love you, I love myself" ~Rumi

Glad you could rez with the share. You do seem to have a very congenial spirit about ya: joy, love, excitement, passion...yes, very nice blossoms. No worries. Just sharing on a theoretical front, from what I've gathered, even after getting periodically attached to the idea/experience of Nothingness, peeps can also even get periodically attached to the idea/experience of Freedom. I suppose it's a relative thang, but it also happens to be something that newly found freedom can give rise to, I suspect. Sometimes, it could be the mind that is making a 'power grab' of sorts. Such attachments can be noticeable in some convos. Power-driven mind likes to think it won (i.e., defeated another), which kinda snorta seems to miss an important point. That seems to come mostly from the male minds, if I'm being open and honest. Whereas, discerning mind, knowing "it is what it is", may just say what it can (sometimes trying to meet the other mind on its terms), and maybe while smiling or looking emotionless or whatever. I totally dig what you mean in saying it's not "all I do", and that it may still be fun/helpful to do a little jousting on occasion. Curious, have you by chance noticed/sensed that you have both a feminine side, as well as a masculine side, like maybe you have a tendency to act or 'also' enjoy being around boyishness at times?

I understand you very well, and you are all good in my book. You don't have to reply, but I sensed you are from the Far East somewhere; I got the feeling via your words... could be wrong, of course...doesn't matter. English is a crazy language, though!! There was a temple in Kyoto in which the Japanese version of the Ox Herding pictures were housed. I used to collect calligraphy from the various temples I visited, and I got the drawings that day also. I was not mature at all, and it took me a while to intuit what they referred to, of course. In a way, they were part of my entry into the great adventure, as was Zen, but the mountains were my favorite 'teachers'. I would have been absolutely hopeless as a monk, hehe. I am very happy that you got past the health issues you mentioned recently. Peacely and hugs, Brother 🤟🏼 The Big Love

Right, if a peep goes to a Zen monastery to give their sovereignty to another peeps, they've already started with the wrong intention. Yes, some likely assume that the ZM can 'teach' them something, and it may be that there is a 2nd or 3rd rate ZM there that is on a power trip. The 'real' goal would be to realize Truth/Self (depending on the approach 'chosen' by the 'mental structure'). Will that happen? I don't know. I'm not big on homogenizing systems either, but I don't state that all such schools of thought/practice necessarily deserve that limited perspective on them. Nor do I conclude that they will merely turn all adherents into "silent and empty Zen students, nothing more." Could they? Sure. I understand you may be trying to sound tough and no nonsense, but it can also be understood as you not really being open to other potentials (at least for other peeps). That would indicate a limited perspective. You are dedicated to the path of psychedelics, (sometimes) re-experiencing and/or confronting one's innermost fears, learning how to deal with them, reporting the changes in perception, validating one's ongoing ontology, which is not necessarily a bad thing per se. I totally get the value. And some of those folks might naturally see its limited perspective and decide to go 'further'. All good. Yes, I am happy you have found some resonance with the Sufis. They have some good thinkers and pointers, too. That you find some form of ND that resonates with a deeper sense of Wholeness which, correlates with an emanating deeper intuitive awareness is a good thingy, and maybe provides some deeper perspective.

@James123 and @SOUL I appreciate what both of you share. Your expressions are clear to me, and that is rare, to say the least. Imo, fwiw, I perceive that you two are speaking about/ pointing to the same dealio, and maybe, juuust maybe coming at it from distinct culturo-linguistic frames of reference. In how I see it from HERE, knowing the limitations of what this mind 'knows' about either of you, James seems to be a non-native speaker of English from a Low-Context Culture, and SOUL seems to be a native English speaker from a High-Context Culture. English is a very 'precise' language, and languages are inherently dualistic tools that can be interpreted and misinterpreted, depending on the minds using it to communicate. Mastering the system of prepositions in the English alone is a daunting task (there are 150 of them in English, to be exact; 23 in Spanish; some languages don't use them at all, but use particles to express 'relationships' between nouns), And then, add to the fact that some prepositions are also used as participles in verb structures makes shit just get outta hand... requires a whole other lawyer-like awareness of the language. Furthermore, due to the constraints of written language on an anonymous message board, we also lack full awareness of tone, facial expressions, presence of 'character' and other forms of non-verbal communication, so there's that. But yes, in a way, this type of Truth talk convo hones in on very specific aspects of what is being referred to, pointed to, and/or how things are communicated. It can often involve devolving into a mirror-mirror arguments in which participants end up 'talking past' each other (one mirror is hard enough, hehe) and maybe just say, 'I don't know' and agree to disagree. In my discussions with @Breakingthewall, while I've poked hard a couple times, I've taken all of that into account. I have also offered several opportunities for finding common ground and/or feedback prodding him to clarify, but he doesn't seem willing. As such, and subsequently reading more in his discussions with other folks, it's apparent I was wrong about the degree of clarity I had assumed he was trying to bring to the overall discussion. No biggie; as an ex-educator, I tend to give a little more room for peeps to expand on their ideas/perceptions. He's mostly only alluding to non-duality as a stand alone experience of sorts; evidently, for him, it requires mind-altering substances and/or the perfect 'conditions'. He makes the abiding sense of it sound more super-human than it actually is. In turn, he does not exhibit abiding in/as ND awareness (i.e., HERE/NOW); and a majority of his arguments tend to say such abiding ND is ONLY for a few real 'mystics' (I use that word differently than say Sufi literature would, but get the point). Breaking likes to bring up EXTREME situations about rare/super nasty situations in which most any peeps would naturally have a hard time staying present, and use that as a basis from which to judge. I see such 'reasoning' to be agenda-based, not being present, simple, and/or 'realistic'. This is not my first rodeo either (with respect to online, intense non-dual Truth talk), but I've also lived most of my adult life as a non-native speaker in other countries/cultures. In the contexts of intercultural communication, really trying to see another mind's intent/values/essence/pointers via language and senses requires an extra layer of assumptions to be put to the side, so to speak. Imo, a message board, on which there are peeps from various countries/cultures, could gain some value if more peeps were aware of such 'cultural dimensions' (like High or Low Context), but that is my experiential/biased opinion. Anyway... Peacely~~ Carry on.

Yes, such experiences do tend to get conflated. Mind is such a rascal! 😅

You're fine. You KNOW, and no longer 'need' the pack's attention and/or validation, but you still enjoy playing in the waves. You're simply adjusting to the dying momentum of a world view once ruled by the mind's delusion. Occasionally, it is still noticed, but it no longer grips the attention and/or creates barriers in the way it used to. That's what 'seeing through the illusion' refers to. 'Like above, so below' type of thingy.... Just do not get attached to Nothingness, and ease into the paradigm of This/Suchness. Hugs.

Yes. And it was. In hindsight, being Present to the mind was key. It was also cool to be Present to the mind's symptomatic PTSD (quite normal), seeing it as 'objectively' as possible, not getting pulled into the story too much (thus extending 'negative' effects in repetitive fashion), not denying the mind's function/needs, allowing the psycho-physical to play out as needed. It was not so much about some self. The via negativa/neti neti that you find limiting is what you're actually participating in. You do not trust others (nor should you really), and you don't like the paradoxes of others, but you love your own. In a way, one only trusts what is giving rise to their own lives and, due to their belief in their self, think they only trust their 'self'. It's subtle, and in the movements of mind. Via one's neti neti, one may or may not arrive and realize the fully fertile Nothingness, then 'think/express' that such words refer to something flat, boring, and dead. Some minds, in turn, might express the same concept as Infinite/Unlimited, and then act out their own version of speerchal narcissism. 🥱🤣 It's especially common for peeps from "Individualistic", "Low-Context cultures" (can look it up) and societies to misunderstand, caste dispersion on, and/or distrust the direct translations of 'reasoning' and writing styles found in "High-Context Cultures". That's a limited perspective. As such, one's conception of logic, or 'objective' world view is hardly universal (or objective), and might even come across as maniacally egoistic and deluded. Good to keep one's perception in check; question it. Mind loves a good yarn though, thinking it can pick up one end of it, and follow it to reach the other end in order to find Truth. Years spent in the endeavor of following the string, what does it find? Paradox.... and then mind spends the next X number of years justifying it, twisting and contorting itself to sound clearer, better, more logical... and all the rest, maybe taking 5meo to express it in wilder, cooler, or more intense sounding ways. They mistake utter simplicity for being shallow, limited, petty, or lacking something, and get caught up in the web of their own thoughts. I've always suspected that that is why Zen Masters sometimes just say to self-righteous and cogitating minds, "Shut up you poor groveling fool, get on the mat, and don't come back til you're dead." There's a great Zen story about Hakuin and his master that exemplifies it purddy well. Many here will just find it as a story of oppression/repression, failing to see the larger context, missing the nuanced implications (i.e., Japanese is a very High-Context culture, as are others). The Zen stories and koans are used for a purpose, not to express an explicit (inexpressible) Truth. Is Zen for everyone? No, it is not. Wasn't for me either (again, this mind-body seemed more aligned with Rumi, crazy wisdom-type stuff, nature, and/or an expressive approach), but I understand and can respect what they're pointing to. Peeps here often talk about intensity/dedication/devotion with their own culturo-personal twists, but then turn around and scorn other perspectives of the same ilk. Around and around it goes... god must be dying laughing. Wild! 🤣🥰🔥 The true story just shared may simply sound like a cool story. Perhaps most are not interested in the Nothingness it could point to, and just more attached to ITS apparent nature. Makes sense. Others might prefer to condemn it all as ego and wish to persecute such 'devilry' (ego often gets a bad rap when it is not understood for what it is).... all good. Makes sense, too. One's free to contemplate, or not... always free to question... always free. A great scenario is they arrive at The Great I Don't Know that rocks their world (some might have a reference for that,,, I dunno). Come, SEE for your self ; 'kill it' and set it free once and for all, centerless... the only certainty there is. Mind you, the mind is never certain.

Yes, no one knows how it will all turn out. Be open to what the limiteless inspires, even though the limited perception is all one has to work with... some peeps go forwards through the fog, others back up through it... ever approaching an unforeseen cliff. That last step is a doozy.

Thank you for the honesty. That says a lot. Right, nothing anyone says means anything with respect 'to' Truth, but what eventually SEES is indicative of the depth of penetration, maybe even Nothingness awakes to what it meant by the simple word. Ever had a gun to your head, with the distinct possibility that one of your organs could soon be harvested if you went down the dark black alley with the perpetrators? It was a cool horror in which conscious existence came to an extreme focal point, depth remained calm, communicated in a second language in an attempt to reach a deeper layer, and found a way. Enjoy your courtroom analyses.

Love it!! Hopefully, you got a solid belly laugh!! That's a good example of the split mind in action!

I tend to read and decode speerchal literature like a bee. Most of modern society seems to read and decode it like a lawyer. I have a pretty good running theory of why that is. If one can't consciously use Intelligence (yes, open intuition gives rise to gnosis) to SEE the nuanced similarities between what Rumi, Huang Po, Plotinus, etc were pointing to, it's the lawyer archetype in charge. Instead, they use carrots of words, logic and reason to pull their own and others' attention (intuition) away from Wholeness, to prove a point, be right, and 'justify', never leaving the comfort of the courtroom in their mind. I have a pretty good idea of what gives rise to that conditioned behavior. Meanwhile, the BEE that SEES just continues on their way, collecting nectar and honey to take back to the hive, participating in the very existence so perfectly, so symphonically being expressed as the Divine (Rumi the Bee), One Mind (Huang Po the Bee), The One (Plotinus the Bee), and many other words. There are many other known and unknown BEES of the One Hive in the clearest sky, each with their own tastes and type of nectar... even you. Rumi would understand this. He and I have had some major discussions. We ripped through and caste aside all the doubts inherent in the mind's capacities, burned through the illusory walls that previously held up our senses and beliefs of existence, opened up to the realization, and saw the moon together. No more pointers, no more effort... IN/AS LOVE. We also realized 'together/as one' that no one can unspin the yarn of another's conditioned thoughts, much less undo the knots that bind them. We CAN tell them, "It is possible", and maybe point out some potential. Enjoy the exploration, brother, bring back some nectar, and make some honey. Peacely~~

I liked your preceding expression, so "liked what i wrote and wanted to hear more answers in my style of answering" sounds about right. All good? Peacely

I'm talking about living in nonduality (i.e., sahaja samadhi as the 'awareness-state'), in which well-Being is not dependent on anything experienced, unobstructed by any mental overlays with respect to existential questioning. I don't mind using verbiage that's playful, so I'm glad you responded so positively to the expression 'dealio'. I like to play in the waves of existence with gratitude. No reason to push. It's effortless. Mentating an existential puzzle takes effort. Putting it 'perfectly' back together takes effort. Can it be fun? Sometimes, sure, but it's not necessary for Peace. But, to be radically upfront and honest, it took a LOT of trying to do so before realizing the movement for what it was. Hugs, brah!

It's interesting to note that the old maps of 'the world as we knew it' use to have scary looking dragons and strange sea creatures meant to signify "the unknown" and/or "potential dangers" off on the side or in the lower corners. Even in such convos exploring the known/unknown boundaries that hold up one's sense of existence, such fears are bound to arise. Peeps also tend to 'fear' black holes, which are nothing but collapsed/collapsing stars. Understanding the general flow of existence, I see them for what they are, wink, and smile. Big Love

Purddy gooooood. Would you say what you point to as Love is emergent in the absence of conditioned fear?

Roight. Effortlessness is the emergent word used to point to a mind informed of and aware of its 'secondary status'. the mind is a useless tool for GNOSSISING, and it can only be 'needed' in worldly (dream) affairs that arise. While the mind 'can' be used to ponder and explore existential matters with appearing 'others', it is noticed that it can also be a slippery slope, and that that is when/where beliefs are born. It can also be noticed that the more such activity/efforting is done, the more one potentially wades out into the river of ignorance, where the currents can carry the attention away, falling into greater and greater confusion and delusion. Lots of so called self-proclaimed 'teachers' do such things, not having settled into the Realization enough, unaware of the mind's degree of ignorance. It can be hard to gauge the appearance of other minds' 'depth of being informed', but mind-driven peeps do all sorts of efforting, believing all sorts of nonsense, while ignorant of effortlessness. Plus, in the age of screen peeps, language is overly relied upon, somewhat cut off from the non-linguistic forms of communication. Chatting on line and/or in relations with otherness are worldly dealios in which the mind is engaged. The apparent mind (a tool) typically uses the tool of language to navigate, negotiate, communicate.... in this dreamlike realm. But language, mostly geared for the appearing world of cause-effect, can seem almost awkward for these speerchal matters. So, here 'we are' having these convos online about the ND perspective which, practically speaking, undermines even speerchuality. Most self-identified peeps get caught up in the inherent paradoxes presented in such discussions due to linguistically conditioned perceptions. They end up engaging from a self-identified perception, resistant to the cognitive dissonance, unable to be open to much less SEE 'from' the ND perspective. But it is a very simple twist that, once SEEN, canNOT be unseen. The bell canNOT be unrung, and it has been echoing the Truth for apparent millenia in the HERE and NOW.

With respect to Huang Po, it could be that you either use a different word/logic than the one he's intending. Your use of 'infinite' to point to the same inconceivability, yet the mind is and will constantly try to slice and dice IT, grasp IT, name it, organize it, and all the rest in order to 'get IT'. At some point, the infinite futility dawns on the mind.... collapse. I suspect that Huang baby and you would get along just fine, and he'd just start laughing with you when you two finally got to that pregnant pause. Dzogchen is the ND wing ding of the Tibetans, so that doesn't surprise me. But yeah, most Tibetan's are tongue tied and mind closed with the general 'lesser schools' of Tibetan Buddhism. I dig the quote you provided. You're struggling with empty/nothing, assuming it is too nihilistic to be real, or too oppressive to be a teaching, when it's simply an innocence that can only be divided and missed by the mind. Don't worry, there are 'reasons' the mind can't know and/or remember ITS presence that is layering over and obscuring. The list you've compiled there are some great ones. I'll check out Longchempa,,, dunno that one. Some schools of thought and/or the translations of the words don't always work to help readers go from perception to perspective. Like poetry, so rez, some don't. No biggie. Sometimes, you'll read the exact same thing you rejected a week ago, but you'll see it in a different light, and you might see how it could have some value for some seeker. Or maybe it can be fun to revise it in a way that expresses the core pointer better, or in a way that you think might slip past people's consensus trance thinking. Sometimes, they're just wrong or perhaps have some agenda. I can zip through most any book on the subject, and there's likely only going to be 5-10% that I think might be the core worth focusing on, and chunk the rest. But everyone else might find value in other parts, or miss the trajectory of the whole dealio. Is the mind open to the potential that, while it likes to use the word Infinity, it may just be its momentum of having been 'the previous knower' that is continuing its attempts to grasp, name, and organize IT, instead of stabilizing as the very core/Source of/as all conscious experience right Here, right Now prior to mind itself? Story: The devil and a friend of his were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend said to the devil, 'What did that man pick up?' He picked up a piece of Truth,' said the devil. 'That is a very bad business for you, then,' said his friend. 'Oh, not at all,' the devil replied, 'I am going to let him organize it.'

Don't concern yourself with problems if you think there's nothing of value in them. Be as ruthless and unconcerned as you like. I ain't selling nothing. I had thought you might be more interested in the bit of criticism with respect to your infinitely open and limitlessness model. Does the main point of the criticism make any sense to you? You're bringing up anecdotal situations, treating massive schools of thought as monolithic, narrowly defined (by you) entities, and drawing conclusions, and I don't really know what to do with all the questions. Are they rhetorical or is there something particular that's actually troubling your peace of mind, blocking your ability to look directly? Maybe, as an exploration, look at the 3-4 main branches of what you call Buddhism, and see how they differ. Just stick with Hinayana, Mahayana, and Ch'an/Zen for starters. Each have very different focuses, intents, practices, overlaps, and so on.... much like any other major religion or speerchal school. I mean, if you are really intent on just trashing Buddhism, you will at least have a more informed way of doing so. Hugs, brotha.

It really is simple, yes.