kbone

I do like your balanced approach and the wisdom you provide for others to attempt (hopefully) to rise above the level of (the) conflict.

@Ajay0 https://www.crisisgroup.org/asia/south-asia/india-china/334-thin-ice-himalayas-handling-india-china-border-dispute https://www.crisisgroup.org/asia/south-asia/india-pakistan-india-pakistan-kashmir/pulling-india-and-pakistan-back-brink Case(s) in point...

That's purddy dang good.

Okey dokey. But do not think for a second that India's ₹1.5 lakh crore sent to Russia and India's formal neutral stance toward the war are not contributing to that war. Yes, I understand that India 'needs' the oil and gas for its billion+ population and wants to maintain a reputable military, but do not claim that India is simply above it all. It's very shortsighted. "There is no guarantee that you or the other westerners ANYONE here will be alive the next moment." "it would obviously be hypocritical on their part to advise the rest of the world" - Yes, hypocrisy is a weird one, and often comes back to bite one in the ass. Irony is funny that way. But, it is also possible that people can learn from past mistakes, remain somewhat balanced, and be in a position to potentially share words of wisdom, at least in theory.

That's fair. Having lived in various parts of Asia for over two decades, I agree that most Europeans and Americans have a hard time understanding the mindsets and cultures of what's at play. Without interacting with others with different mindsets and world views, it is very hard to put oneself into their shoes... much less walk a mile in them. The rest of it is fair to say also. It is the ongoing convo that world democracies should be involved in, more honest about, and more transparent with. If we look back and truly see the outcomes and events of last 50-100 years, what can we change about our present states of mind that will bring about a greater potential... I try not to oversimplify, nor get too 'lost in the weeds' of every detail. There's always a sense of futility to it, but forward we must go.

@Ajay0 It might be best to approach these convos with a less defensive and/or more balanced perspectives. After all, it's pretty easy to point out the bloodshed, injustice, and utter failures that have happened on every continent and in every country, India included. It's great that India is rising and taking a more active role on the world stage, but it also needs its citizens to hold its leaders more accountable. I am not saying you are wrong in every way per se, but as a general overall critique of your posts, you seem to be quite biased and quick to deflect. There are many reasons India is rising, and with more power comes more responsibility. Case in point, if India wants to start a war with Pakistan, put ALL the blame it can muster on that one country and its people, push the region to an ongoing state of brinkmanship (with military forces indoctrinated with the hope of destroying each other, and billions and billions of rupees being spent on military rather than providing water, education, social support, etc, welp, India and its people will have to take responsibility for that strategy.

@Ajay0 You can introduce all the anecdotal evidence to support any argument you want. I've seen those nets in use throughout SE Asia since time immemorial. Plus, if finding fishing nets in southern India is indicative of some 'extensive trade relations' that could counter the ideological and cultural differences of the two civilizations, I'd be impressed. Most of India and China's relationship and 'alignment' is based on the expeditious and mutual need for partners in trade, and that's fine and dandy.... it's basically strategic competition. But, you cannot deny that their mutual relations are mostly periodic, at best.

Most of the 'peace' between India and China can be attributed to that relatively very VERY MASSIVE mountainous region that separates them. This is larger macro version of the 'disputes' you might see from one simpler valley culture to another throughout history. There's a degree of 'peace' between the two countries for now, sure, but it has its potentials when it comes to water and ideology. On that latter note, there is a rather massive difference between the two regions on opposite sides of the Himalayas, which has always been kind of a cool set of comparisons and contrasts to tinker with. An interesting case in point might be the Tibetan culture that has been slowly decimated on one side, while thriving in communities/regions on the other. Furthermore, such 'peace' is not for the smaller cultures that have attempted to coexist with the larger more monolithic enterprises of the Han Chinese or the now-flexing right-wing Hindus. Many of them have either collapsed or are struggling to maintain themselves. Most of this is identity-based stuff mixed with empire/war that has been going on for millennia, and not necessarily of speerchal search stuff that is expressed here on this board... that generally gravitates toward WHY people feel the need to subjugate and/or fight perceived otherness. Indian leadership has the potential to emerge as a balanced, leading force in the region. I hope they can rise to the occasion, but there are many stumbling blocks on the path now. One of those stumbling blocks could include whether or not to support and/or align with Putin/Russia via oil&gas and military kit sales and/or cooperation. The world will be watching, regardless of however much its own citizens have come to believe in and support the measures for national security.

@BlueOak Well, to be clear, I wasn't saying the border itself is the 'reason' people fight, but that the process and subsequent use of religious and identity (us vs them) to promote more psychological division was. As for trying to nail down the specifics of why certain cultures and/or regions tend toward violence or cooperation, it's a complicated one. Having spent years teaching international language, intercultural communication, and cultural dimensions as a study, I do have a decent sense for the nuances at play. The comparisons of contexts do not typically line up in very linear ways, to be sure. Just to get a sense of it, I typically refer folks to Hofstede's cultural dimensions as it is usually one that people can grasp more immediately. Then you have to look at education, historical context, outside influences, individual agencies acting within the given power structure, social 'level of consciousness', geographic size, and all the rest. Even beginning to have a closer look at the size, enormity, regional differences, social stratification, massive diversity, etc within India almost immediately begins to boggle the mind. As I have spent a majority of my own time in the north, and mostly in the Himalayas (mountain folks are quite different than the plains folks), I do not have a strong feel for the mind of Southern Indians, whom I have found myself living amongst here where I am now (mostly software professionals living abroad). From what they have told me of changes in India in the last decade or so alone, it is almost as if the India that I experienced in the 1990s and early 2000s no longer 'really' exists. Anyway, back to the main point, but with this latest aspect as an example of the upheavals at play. I'm not condoning them or giving them credence in their own right, but just acknowledging potential nuances. In India, there has always been a flavor for diversity, perhaps due to centuries and centuries of a culture founded upon the pantheon of Hindu gods (much like Ancient Greeks would have experienced) along with waves and centuries of Muslim, Buddhist, Jain, Christian, etc thought and influence. The area now known as Pakistan would have been quite similar in that regard prior to 1948. The area is home to Indus Valley civilization, the Gupta Empire, Merghar, Kashmir Shaivism, Gandharan Buddhist culture, etc, so it's quite easy to see that. I saw the the relics everywhere, some even defaced, whether it be centuries ago by a wave of humanity prevailing at the time, or since the Partition with the advent of a predominantly Islamic form of government. But, the fact remains that monotheistic religions have a very different flavor or social cohesion, regardless of how different the sects may be within the branches of that religion. For example, the codes of law written 'typically' carry more weight and there is a stronger adherence to core principles that 'bind identity'. In a way, the Hindutva arm of the BJP sees a potential for implementing and establishing a similar exclusive mentality under the banner of a 'Hindu nation', which seeks to promote and enshrine the leadership based on that identity (which is historically at odds with and has been subjugated by a Muslim leadership in the past for hundreds of years). Way too many details to go into here, and with many shades of grey. I'm not going to go on and on, but it is a fascinating region and time in history for the people of the region. Unfortunately, many of the points you and others here have alluded to in your posts are playing out as the complex, almost quagmire-like phase the region is in due to the forces at play in modern governance (see global far-right movements, market share mentalities of religions, military industrial complex, collapsing educational systems, the use of AI and the impacts it will have on labor markets, etc). We do live in interesting times. Very very interesting, indeed.

@TheGod She may be using such terms to distinguish some flavors of how/why people search, but without acknowledging that any honest 'path' is about transcending AND including, much like the 10th Oxherding dealio. As such, once her rendition of such a "Masculine Path" is realized, impermanent appearances can be embraced, played with, experienced fully, enjoyed, etc without all the baggage born of ignorance that gives rise to suffering. That, I guess, is what she means by "Feminine Path". Could be wrong... After all, what are such 'illusions' when seen for what they are...

@eliasvelez He was a VERY cool, dude. He exhibited a rare humbleness. His physical presence will be missed, but the spirit of his expression in the world will live on.

The problem is that the region lived as an integrated whole for thousands of years until the partition in '48. Sure, there have always been attitudinal differences, but they were worked out as communities, again, have done for thousands of years. The division along geographical lines were mangled and of course that was turned into an all out 'reason' to hate and be bitter towards one another. Now, there's religious fervor and strong tools for psychological manipulation on populations still struggling with varying degrees of basic survival and upward mobility. We have a far-right BJP, heavily influenced by the Hindutva, firmly in power in India, and a Pakistan bordered by a war-ravaged and failed state of Afghanistan and an Iran with a religio-political leadership that seems bent of antagonism of anyone they can. Then, there is the one border crossing with China, who is now all but given up on its 'investment' in Pakistan due to the current turmoil. That said, they likely won't pass on creating difficulties with India as they still have border disputes to contend with there, as well. None of this, really, has a lot to do with the people of those countries, some of which ate the coolest, most down-to-earth and most memorable I've ever met (that goes for India and Pakistan, as well). The type of Islam that prevails in Pakistan has nothing to do with Wahhabism. I think you would know that. Other than in areas closer to the border with Afghanistan up near and north of Pashtun/Khyber/Peshawar and in the Balochistan (also bordering Iran), 80% of the people I met were mostly quite moderate, and were not all that impressed by such deeply fundamental sects like Wahhabism, even considering them 'foreign' to them. While the corruption at the top of political life allows for extremist elements and ideological thinking/activity, there will always be a need for a public enemy that can be used to rally support and blind the masses. Most of this recent blow up is based on scoring political points and may/likely pushes the region to more ongoing brinkmanship that a MASSIVE majority of people on both sides will suffer from. Meanwhile, the corruption, human rights abuses, and blame run free... perhaps will small incremental changes toward 'better'. India is the most powerful country in that sub-continental region, but they tend to squander the power in expressions of mite, rather than lead by example. That's likely because in recent decades, India has started to come into their own, yet have not quite found their footing as leaders. That is, I do think that Indian leaders could be a better force for the 'good' than what they have shown the world thus far. It's complex stuff, to be sure. Having spent 5-6 years in South Asia, that's my 2 rupees on the situation. Jai Ram and Insh'Allah it works out. I love that region of the world, and wouldn't mind even retiring there someday. It will always have a place in my heart.

@Davino Thanks for taking the time. I don't know that many of the posters here and I see you pop up quite a bit as a moderator, so I was wondering your take. You've explained it well. Would you say that the POV presented is one based on Realization, or a conclusion based on evidence, perhaps from even mind blowing experiences. I'm not being picky or proddy, just curious. In your latter post, I rez with most of what you say, but might just express it in a similar-but-different way. For example, I might express it without ideas of reuniting anything. That is, ALL appears in/as the movement within NOTHING/Stillness, and the mind, the bifurcator, is part of that movement. NOTHING is unexplainable. Everything is a mystery. Coolio.

@zazen Aces. Thanks a lot for helping verify that it's not verified, hehe. Yeah, once these hyper-iased counter-narratives start to roll, it's hard to keep up. I'm with the kid, and yes, it's nice to see someone that young taking a balanced view. And Bihar is renown for being one of the poorer per capita states (if not THE poorest) in India, so it's great to see a sharp young'un from there not taking too much of the bait. Thanks again, good sir.

@zazen If you have time today, could you find if there's actual validity to the Kirana Hills nuclear leak? -TIA

@Davino Having read in your signature "In this steady life GOD is available; via 5-MeO-DMT", would you say that "GOD is available" prior to taking 5-MeO-DMT and THEN experiencing its causal effects on the mind's perceptions? I'm curious about your distinction between Truth (eternal/timeless, infinite/acausal, etc) and experiencer/experience (time bound, dependent on mind).

@PolyPeter With respect to Truth, how would you go about facilitating/explaining/teaching/promoting being prone to... futility to 'another mind'? Real question, I'm curious. I've found that every mind goes through the night and gets the wake up call in a different way, sometimes radically different. And then, once the awakening has happened (IF it has indeed happened), all kinds of strange and odd things are exhibited as 'their mind' comes to terms with what ACTUALLY being awake is. This is often the case with folks who rely on psychedelic experiences too much to inform their clarity. That is, it's not so much about experiences, but about how the Realization informs the mind, and there is a substantial distinction. There's often a tendency for the mind (as an unconscious momentum of sorts) to want to 'get/take credit for' or 'take control of' the Realization, so to speak,,, at which point, they may be in the process of, or, they've already 'fallen back into the dream'.... unable to discern being awake IN the dream or FROM the dream. Convos on whether or not that phenomena is at play have a tendency to get a little uumm, feisty, if ya know what I mean, hehe.

@Basman Sure, if we're talking about stereotypes, one could say the quality of education is sub-optimal in most cases. I've seen some more optimal outcomes and many sub-optimal cases, though a lot of it seems to be the dance that is typically required of the teachers, the students/parents, and how the system tests for 'mastery'. And, of course, there's typically a large disparity between public and private schools. As for controlling oneself for biases, yeah, there can be a purddy strong pull towards being opinionated in the realm of social discourse, in general. Some people are more well versed in scientific rigor and may only stick to facts, in which they can come across as cold and/or unwilling to enter into simply 'opinionated' debates. Others may be unconsciously following unwritten 'rules' of social discourse in which one is taught to not discuss religion/deeply held beliefs with people they don't know (that might include speerchuality). Yet others, might be quite open to such discussions, have very little rigor with respect to their own cherished beliefs, be confrontational toward 'facts', and be very unaware that they, like everyone else, have their own opinions and experiences from/through which they are interacting. I do see that on occasion, and once I get a whiff of it, I smile inwardly or outwardly, poke around a bit on perceived edges, see what becomes of the convo, and may or may not bow out altogether. No biggie. I tend away from unchecked stereotypes when talking about cultures involving millions of people, especially ones comprised of multi-national and/or multi-cultural constituents. It helps keep the mind's biases in check as one comes more 'naked' to the interaction. It's more like a curiosity, rather than a judging, pegging, and an eventual evaluation, which may come later, but usually in introspection.

@Javfly33 Start with "I don't know mind". Presently, it seems to be making assumptions where it finds a rub, and then making conclusions (structure of beliefs). Perhaps, go wash the dishes or sweep the floor. When there's a tough spot or accumulated dust bunnies, take action; that much the mind can do... and who knows, maybe a coolio insight bubbles up and the whole rub becomes moot. But in Truth seeking, the mind will give way, fall to its knees, and be filled in the surrender. Only then does Truth/Nothing begin to inform mind, and all such assumptions/conclusions/beliefs begin to fall away, almost automagically. Take it easy. You're prolly just fine, and it's the mind-structure/self that is having a problematic episode. Happens all the time. Stand up, dust off, ...forward. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRG3R2FmGlY

@Basman Puritanical tendencies likely persist in US culture via values like self-reliance, moral rigor, and a strong sense of community that is often rooted in religious beliefs and the subsequent moral compass. So yeah, they often come across as thinking they know it all or are in the right (i.e., so competing ideas must be defeated), hehe. These values have been secularized and adapted from perhaps their Puritan roots, influencing American social and political life to this day. Interestingly, the individual achievement born of the sub-structure of such beliefs provides the basis for the resistance to social change that challenges the aforementioned established value system, which often take odd forms, to be sure. All-in-all, culture changes quite slowly anywhere you go, and each have their own unique stylistic tendencies that must be negotiated in one's mind if one travels to or live within it. That's kinda snorta wat the 'culture shock' models refer to when talking about adaptation. But, yes, ANY large group of 'others' with highly salient cultural features can be annoying, hehe. It's just how mind works: point of views congeal, preferences take form, arguments/blame arise, things are taken to the Nth degree, etc etc.

@Carl-Richard Purddy much, and purddy useful. But yeah, when questioning what makes up the mind-made coating with sprinkles on top of simple awareness, it's bound to come up.

@zazen An incredible region. I was fortunate to be able to see so much of the Karakorams before 9/11 after which it became more questionable to be a solo trekker. A majority of the ranges in India are not up in that area, of course, so it was pretty easy to navigate. I spent a majority of my 'domestic simplicity' stints with occasional week-long treks in the Nanda Devi region, which is a relatively undeveloped area other than the Shiva-yatri in Badrinath. The people up in the villages were just golden (at least a majority). Something about mountain villages and the people there... such simplicity, which was a big focus at that time in my life. Buenoooo.

Yeah, having spent considerable time in the various mountain ranges of that area in both countries, it's a drag to see how this is being escalated so quickly. The promoted hatred on both sides was always pretty consistent. Unfortunately, we are likely only in the opening months/years of a repetitive back and forth with very few cooler heads prevailing.

@Mannyb Very coolio. Yeah, we probably rez on a number of things, in light of what you shared. I'll try to reply more later when my brain is a bit less mush from a detail-driven day. 🦋