SamC

@Etherial Cat Well all guys do and there are no exception to the rule.. like for real. Don't play games. What's up with the insults? I'm a guy who wants a hot girl like everyone else. Does that mean I don't care about how the girl is and the chemistry and personality. No of course I do. But don't try to convince yourself that guys don't seek hot girls. We absolutely do and that's totally fine - it's our survival agenda. Lolz. All guys value good looks. That doesn't mean we don't value other things in relationships aswell. In fact - I have fallen in love primarily because of girls personalities. But again... Don't take for granted what guys want and not want. All guys value hot girls - that's the truth. Period. That said, note that I never said that's what is what one should search after in relationships. That was your projection. All I said was that guys value hot girls - why? Becuase we do! Lol no I'm not. Girls want a masculine guy who has integrated his femine side and can provide containment. They want the tamed Lion, who can be an asshole and cold when he needs to, yet super kind to you. The perfect example of this is Damino or whatever his name is in måneskin. He attracs woman like crazy becuase he is a badass badboy feminie guy. That was what my Ex girlfriend said, not me XDXD. Oh wait, it was the reverse, I remember now. Girls want good boys with bad boy vibes. That's what she said. Also lastly - I really don't want you to feel missunderstood. I know that's the experience on this forum and especially for you girls because you're the minority. That said, I think everyone can learn from everyone. I know there are a lot of perspectives from the femine that I haven't integrated and disowned but I know that many woman do the same with the masculine perspective. Both missunderstand eachother and both are fucking wrong and fucking right in their own way.

Values are relatively ( subjectivly) objective. A hot chick is valued by men, but woman who are heterosexual don't value that. That doesn't mean that a general value of people can't exist - what connects us all is that we are surviving, hence why we value the things that is beneficial for our survival. That's why woman want a bad boy with good boy wibes and guys want hot femine girls XDXD. * if we assume the hetro normative perspective. That said, individual preferences of course exsist, but general subjective values is a thing. Just becuase it's subjective doesn't mean it doesn't exsist in practice. Men and woman value different things but what men value, most men generally value, and what woman value - most woman generally value. Survival value game 101

Yeah but notice that those people are people aswell that also Yeah and when that happens a shadow creates inside the one that pushes them away. Of course girls should stay away from desperate nice guy men but that doesn't stop from trying to understand why they are the way that they are and learning how to love them with a capital L. I disagree. I think it's important to seek to understand everyone - atleast if one wants to embody love and spirituality. I obviously am that way but I am at the same time not a horrible guy. The point of all this is to explain that there are different reasons why guys are creepy. A creepy guy could just be a socially akward guy who is shy and says something that makes the girl feel uncomfortable becuase he is shy and insecure. In fact, I've been that guy. That's from my experience. The whole discussion is that I don't agree with the conclusion that all creepy guys are bad guys have bad intentions. Of course they do. I couldn't agree more and I think it's important to talk about it. I know girls who witness about all kinds of nasty stuff. They sure exists and I'm not saying it's not an issue. It's a HUGE Issue... but it's also an issue of lumping all guys that acts desperate, clingy and needy in to that category as " bad people" that need to be pushed away. That only enhances the problem on so many levels and is one of the reason why guys who feel missunderstood turn to shit like black pill and incel ideology. If I ask a girl out and I do it in a weird uncalbritated too forward way does that mean I am an axe murdur? Probably not. Does that meen that girls shouldn't reject me and not see me as creepy and potentially dangerous or not suitable? NO. They should. But that shouldn't stop them from at least considering that I at the same time maybe didn't have illl intentions and that I didn't want to hurt them.. Point being - all desperate clingy needy nice guys are not crack heads. Most simply don't know what they are doing I get your point and appreciate this perspective XDXD The thing is that I recognize the behaviors but I don't recognize that I ever had any Ill intentions or that I am a bad guy that should be pushed away into isolation. I'm just a guy, not a category. People can be all that and at the same time not have bad intentions. Enmeshment trauma. I am scared of asking for what I want and people please to get people to like me. What I get is that I get a false sense of love. I feel like I am not enough on my own so instead I don't ask for it and hope that the other person will like me for giving up myself to them.. which sure is ego and selfishness but it's not like I'm a bad guy who wants to hurt the girl. It's just my survival strategy to get love which doesn't aid me that well in acuality. A socially akward man is not a creappy man but many socially akward men are creepy meb Yeah which happens if you lump up all creepy guys as creepy guys and don't account for that some are just socially akward.. hence - be careful with grouping people. I want to make a distinction between creepy guys and creepy guys, like this ( Creepy guys are crackheads but not all creepy guys are crackheads, some are just insecure socially akward dudes) Yeah I know and I disagree with the grouping. For sure your experience is hella valid! Exactly and I can tell you I've been the fakest guy ever but that's not becuase I am a crackhead who don't care about woman and want to hurt woman. That's because I am guy who is insecure, yet a guy who cares a lot about other people's well being and want everything to be well and to work out. But I've struggled to attract girls cause I've been scared to stand up for myself and be in my masculine energy which is totally fine.. like totally fine. But I'm not a fucking crackhead axe murder and deserve to be in the same category as them. I agree with you 1000% on this ^^^ You have every right to your experience and I know it's from your direct experience. All I am saying is that I am not wrong either. This is my experience and really want to be acknowledged that I have had that experience. Just like you want your experience validated and not gaslit by me or any other guy. ( which I've seen happens a lot on this forum and I am sorry for that) Yeah^^ exactly. And that's why I wanted to Express it becuase you where interested in learning more about the Male psyche. It's awsome that you're open minded. Then of course I also did it because I felt missunderstood and needed to tell you how I felt. That's my work in developing as a man. I know. what I felt was that I was in all those boxes but that the criteria didn't fit the box. I make it really personal cause I am identified with it and that's totally fine. That's how it felt for me. I really really belive that your experience is relevant from me. I've already learned a lot about woman and life from you and our discussions in the past. However, I think i am not the only one that can learn a lot. There are visdom about the Male psyche in what I have written that I belive and hope you can use to understand men better aswell. We are all leading eachother home, we are all learning from eachother. For sure. It's not and I do that and take responsibility for that but that doesn't stop me from expressing how I feel and what my thoughts are, from my limited perspective XDXD I for sure do but I also recognize that I am and have been in these boxes.. eventhough I am not a guy with bad intentions. I have acted both needy, obsessive and nice guye. (: I know your intentions don't worry. I'm just expressing my emotions and thoughts. @Preety_India

Yeah and what I am saying is that that interpation is biased and not how the guys usually are. Like pretty for real.. I expressed how I as a guy interpeted it. I didn't lash out. I felt missunderstood and expressed that. Of course the female perspective is valid and that those guys are not percived as safe and dangerous by woman. Of course men should work on not being that.. but the boxning in guys as being such and such and saying that these guys are unsafe Is ONLY true from the female perspective. Notice that not trying to understand them as people and instead as groups pushes them away from you... which is fine. Point being - this IS how girls see them after all, not how they neccesarily are... but this makes guys who struggle with attracting woman even more disconnected from woman. This is the exact same dynamic guys have when they judge super ugly woman.. we push them away down from ourselves and group them and don't see them as a person.. only as a a way to get what we want, which makes woman feel sperated and disconnected from men. Trust me, I am listing and I get it. " why should we ( as girls) care about these guys, we need to protect ourselves from them. Are perspective is valid, like hello!! How the fuck can these guys say that we shouldn't see these guys as dangerous. I mean they fucking are, I experienced it myself" I get it. I really do and I work on this.. but I also work on expressing how I feel. In fact, that's a part of it. You don't get it. When I approach a girl and get rejceted because I am nice I don't try to exhibit behaviors that Are hurtful. I try to get a girlfriend. I have been to fucking scared to show my intentions, not because I wanted to hurt woman. Never said it wasn't Yeah for sure but not all creepy men. Most creepy men are just socially awkward guys who are terrified of woman. They are some serious crack heads out there but be careful of putting all guys that are seen as unattractive in the same box. Yeah but that is what a nice guy is trying to do.. to get love. I don't know any nice guys that wants to hurt woman.. it's actually quite the opposite. That's why they avoid asking for what they want. Then sure they might end up hurting them anyway becuase they are not honest but it's not like they are " bad people" Pure gaslighting. I feel missunderstood and have every right to express that just like you have the right to express everything you feel and experience. You're assuming that I hurt woman but I don't - I get rejected by them because they don't get attracted to me. I never intend to hurt woman. I am not a bad guy that deserves to be put in a box. Sure but they get attracted them first. Sure I buy that but notice that it can be very confusing for guys to understand how to be that and that the nice guys are the one's who have swinged the pendulum to the femine side becuase they always hear from woman. " Don't be like those unattached unemotional fuck boy assholes"... and then they get put in a box as a creep. * which is fine. But notice how it is self surviving and notice that it maybe isn't always the whole truth. Most nice guys are just socially akward and scared, not bad people @Preety_India

@Preety_India Guys are not needy, creepy, desperate, manipulative or nice. Guys are guys. This is kinda similar to putting it as 1: Small tits girls 2: small ass girls 3: ugly girls 4: hot girls. Your description is not about understanding guys, it's about your understanding of guys as a woman from your surviving " what you deem as attractive and safe perspective". Men objectifie woman and woman objectifie men but in a different way. If I am honest and tell you that I have been perceived both as creepy, desperate, manipulative and nice but does that mean Imma bad person that deserves to put in a box? No.. I'm just a guy who happens to show those behaviours. I think that many men feel that they get judged by woman for being a nice guy or whatever, and sure they are not clear with their intention, but it's not like they * the nice guys* are bad or creepy guys objectively. They are just normal guys who want love from girls and get rejected and then get put into a box as being " something" becuase they are perceived as unsafe/ unattractive. Another thing that adds to this dilemma is that woman often say " I want a nice guy" but then sleep with the opposite jerk and meanwhile tell us that we shouldn't be nice... LIke , many men feel tereible missunderstood Preety. Woman say they want us to listen to them but the truth is that we struggle to do so if we see you saying one thing and then doing the opposite. - " be feminine and caring, not like a man - don't be a nice guy, I am not attracted to you. Go away! Like what should we be and do? It feels like we're either narcccistic fuckboy pigs or narcissist nice guy feminine pigs. It feels like a lose lose. Most "Nice guys, desperate guys and needy guys" can be nice - but what they all miss is that they don't ask for what they want.. not because they are mean.. but because they are terrified to do so. @Preety_India

I get so sad and frustrated when the girls I've approached flakes on me. I know it's a part of the game but I just think" fuckk what If I did this instead - now I lost this amazing opportunity and everything is avfull". I get painfull flashbacks when I think about the pretty girl and how I'm " locked away" from her, forever... How do you trancend this/ deal with this? @Leo Gura

Yeah, I know XDXD. How do I go about doing that though? My theory is that I need to accept that while at the same time taking steps towards integrating the parts within me that have been neglected, disowned, and rejected. What would you do if you were me and would like to learn how to love yourself? @Etherial Cat

I want one with 8 boobs. I am quite picky. Maybe that´s why XDXDXD

I like that a lot. Thanks, man XDXD

@Preety_India Can´t you create one with your witchcraft and send it to Sweden? Í´ll PM my address

I´ll be honest, this makes me feel alone and misunderstood because it feels like that it in itself is proof of what I am afraid of, that I am unlovable. It´s not about her, it´s about the symbolism behind it - which is why I can´t let her go. I can say, " okay I am going to accept this" but that in itself is mental torture because I just fucking can´t. Maybe I need to accept that I can´t accept this situation and accept that it´s fucking awful and that I feel really fucking sad, angry, and frustrated + fucking learn to feel it. I think I need to complain, suffer and do everything I feel like consciously, and the same thing goes for when I get triggered. Many times I feel angry/ misunderstood when people tell me that I should just let go and not think about it / not feel something but that´s because I say the same thing to myself. JUST LET IT GO BRO... but I just can´t - probably because t´s not about letting this go, it´s about letting go of the need for my experience to be any other way. Maybe that´s what you ultimately meant. Thoughts? @Etherial Cat

I'm doing that and it helps but it also makes me more stressful cause my ego freaked out sometimes.. Xdxd Getting flaked + ego backlash is tough. Me not reccomend Yeah obviously but I don't care about that anymore. My problem is first and foremost that I belive I am lacking.. so the solution is the problem. Okey cool but how do you actually do that?

I'm wise but my dick is not. I just want to fuck her. Imma hungry dog Leo XDXD... we need the how to get laid video Yeah.. so as soon as I start fantasizing I should just notice the thought and let it go?That's actually a really helpful habit to get into. Thanks Leo. @Leo Gura

Why is it important to be yourself and feel like yourself in these situations? What happens if you would do it? Falling different huh?

Ahh so when you're with people who don't share your values and stuff you feel alone? Maybe you for some reason feel afraid to stand for what you belive in in situations where people " disagree with you/ don't share the same idea". That's how it many times is for me which makes me feel alone and also like I'm not my true self.. so alone - separated both from myself and other people.

Yeah.. like I get that XDXD but it's so fucking annoying when people look for everything that is wrong and make conclusions based on what they belive. EDIT: I know know... it's because I do the exact same thing. I interpret stuff, danger and missunderstandment that doesn't exist ^^^^

Would love your perspectives and explanations.

Everything XDXD except for when I myself become a victim of the people victimizing themselves and blaming it on me. I get angry at the reaction for some reason. ( I've got a looot better at this but I still have a lot i haven't integrated there)

Last friday I continued my pick up journey and went out and approached 5 girls. 2 said they had a bf and 3 gave me their snap/ number. ALL OF THEM FLAKED. It's really fucking discouraging, especially because it felt like I did a much better job this time and all of them seemed to " like me" and appreciate me talking to them. I also stated that I was there to take them out and not be their "friend" while stated that I found them attractive. I went home as a king and thought I had figured out and become a natural but Noooo, I had not. 2 unfriended/blocked me, one right after I had left and one after I sent a snapchat to her and the other one just didn't reply. I think one problem surely lies in my messages coming off as to needy but I think my main issue was that I was friendly - AND NOT Seductive. I didn't make the conversation flirty/created the masculine polarity which honestly fucking scares me because I don't feel like I I can create that. I am a pretty feminie dude, kinda scared, insecure but at the same time a master at making people like me and playing a role. That has been my strategy - which I for a second thought would ignite the path for pussy to me but no, I need to learn how to become more masculine while at the same time being me. But how do you do that? I think I have that power hidden somewhere underneath but how do I relese it - the right way? How do I find my masculine power that is authentic to me? Leo said one way is to go fuck some girls but I am not there yet. Like that's where I want to go but how do I even get there XDXD, Leo? @Leo Gura

All I can say is that I'm looking forward to buy your services. Sounds so cool! I would personally love to see a chief providing healthy yet ridiculously taste meals and changing the way of gastronomi and stuff like that. Go after your dream. Whatever it is. We need you. What is the potential in psychoactive food that you see? I am curious!

@Etherial CatThanks Cat! This was really nice that you wanted to encourge me. It's healing becuase many times it feels like Woman despise men for doing pick up which makes many men feel really missunderstood. ( Just like you girls do when we guys project our own judgement about or femine side onto you.) It means more then you can think! I texted them two of them the day after and the third 2 days after!

@StarStruckYeah bro. It's super counterintuitive. I always thought that when people said I should be more feminine that they talked bullshit becuase I already felt to feminine and that girl's didn't want me becuase of that... but trust me bro There is something very very important to the idea of integrating and loving your feminie side that could potentially change your entire life and get you what you want, Sex and girls. Big fucking cheers to you for being open minded enough to atleast investigate it for yourself. That's a very mature approach. If you want a leeway to do this: Search for and investigate " anima possession/ repression" and reap the benefits from it. It will change your life if you grasp that dynamic.

I can see how that can work XDXD

@Kshantivadin Yeah.. Any tips on how I can develop this? What should I say instead? Any good video/ recorder you know. I cringe at my self but I'm gonna share it anyway eventhough I am scared. I said to one. " Nice to meet you last night, awsome that you like psychology aswell - I like that. Are you adventurous ?" "And to the other one: hey, Sam here ( the super charming boy that you meet in town the other day)? wazzup, what's happening?" "And something along the line " Hi Marxsist? nice talking to you yesterday. Me and my friend are going to take a drink at XXXX. wanna join us?" The third girl ( third message) blocked me right after I added her on snap after we had had a long convo. She was there with her friend. She joked that she was a marxsist and we connected really well. I think I was to explicit and needy. The same with the other 2. I sent message 1 and 2 one day after and message 3 two days after. Side note: in 2 of the approches the girls friends complimented me on being charming and that they felt safe around me and that I had a nice "open energy but again.. that's not seductive energy. What's your experience with this? ( what's " seductive energy"?) Is that IT or is that just me being friendly and charismatic in a normal platonic way?