DocWatts

@AnderzTrump is pretty clearly a stage Red con-artist and sociopath, though he tries to portray himself as a stage Orange business person (similar to how mob bosses wear a front of being a legitimate business person). Compare Trump to someone like Jeff Bazos if you want to see the difference between Red masquerading as Orange, and someone who's actually a successful stage Orange businessman. Every business venture Trump has tried has failed, as he is incapable of the sort of long term thinking necessary to run a successful business. Hell, even his attempts to overturn the Election Results have been impulsive, ham-fisted, and incompetent. Credit to the Never-Trumpers for seeing through this, but unfortunately Trump has been quite successful at selfishly manipulating low consciousness people into thinking of Trump as more than he is. Being able to con and manipulate others for selfish reasons is quite low consciousness; someone at Turquoise would be far beyond such behavior.

I %100 agree that Trump Voters need to be brought back in to the fold of American Democracy, but I don't see pandering to Authoritarian viewpoints as an effective way to do that. The only way I see that happening is to have a relatively healthy Conservative political party that represents their views, without giving them the ability to impose thier will on the rest of the country. Fixing our Democratic Institutions will make it so that the Republican Party has to moderate thier viewpoints and appeal to enough people to win elections. As things stand right now, our system is highly vulnerable to a minority imposing thier will on the rest of country (look to the Electoral College, or 7 out of 9 Supreme Court justices being Conservative). People of integrity in the Republican Party such as the late John McCain need to be encouraged and supported, as the fascist direction the Republican Party has taken is not sustainable in a pluralistic Democracy. Either the Republican Party will have to change to fit Democracy, or Democracy will be eroded to fit an Authoritarian Republican Party.

Maybe we just have a difference of perspective here, but I kind of liken people who believe in the baseless electoral fraud narrative to those who deny the reality of Climate Change. If by this point someone isn't convinced by the decades of solid evidence for human caused Climate Change, they likely never will be, and almost certainly believe what they do for issues that having nothing to do with a lack of evidence. Similarly, credible studies looking at Voter Fraud are easily available, and basically all of them say the same thing: that widespread Voter Fraud in the USA is basically non-existent. Their believing in the Voter Fraud narrative does so for psychological and tribalistic reasons, not because there's any credible ambiguity in the evidence. In either case, spending a ton of effort to mollify either of these groups is a wasted effort in my view, and we'd be better off Unifying and working with the %60 or %70 of the country who's amenable to making progress in this country on a host of very serious issues. Trying to convince people who are a lost cause at this point is an Opportunity Cost that's just not worth it when you consider the time sensitive nature of many of the issues we're dealing with.

If the Voter Fraud claims were being made by John McCain Republicans or even George W Bush Republicans I might agree with you, but you have to remember that the basis for these claims are coming from a Cult Leader with no interest in working with the other side (or even seeing the country as a whole prosper). While I have no doubt that some MAGA Cult do sincerely believe that the election results are fraudulent, the only way they'll be disabused of that claim is if Daddy Trump tells them otherwise, something he'll never under any circumstances do. You have to remember that these are not rationale or reasonable people we're dealing with here, and there's not going to be an easy way to bring Unity to the %30 or %40 of the country who've fallen under the Cult of Personality of a charismatic sociopath. I would think that a better path forward would to be to focus on reforming our Institutions so that a minority of thr Country no longer has an outsized and undemocratic influence in our electoral system. And Unity would be better achieved by reaching out to moderates, Independents, and Never-Trumpers, and also by expanding Voting Rights throughout the Country.

From what I've seen (at least in America), Red tends to see Climate Change as a hoax, and when questioned about it they will proceed to send you a link to Conspiracy Video on Youtube made by some dude with a beard sitting in a truck.

The Voting Fraud claims made by the MAGA Cult aren't being made in Good Faith, but are instead being used as a tactic to delegitimize an election they lost, and undermine faith in Democracy. Giving credence to their claims by pretending to take their concerns seriously will only be seen to legitimize Conspiracy Theories on the far right, and will do no literally nothing to mollify Trump or his Cult. Negotiating with these people doesn't work; compromise can only happen when both sides are working in Good Faith.

LBJ was a paradoxical figure that I've never been able to wrap my head around; surely someone doesn't commit thier whole professional political career towards helping the less fortunate purely out of pragmatism, right? I always kind of had the impression that his Civil Rights reforms were more of a means to an end to garner support for the Social Reforms and Poverty Reduction Programs that he believed in, rather than out of a sincere desire to help black people. I say this because I don't really have a good way of squaring LBJ's sincere stage Green egalitarianism with his stage Blue personal racism. Interesting to note that he had alot of Orange or Red vulgarity as well (it wasn't uncommon for him to hold White House meetings from inside of the bathroom while taking a dump).

Universal Basic Income Orange : You can't just give people handouts for things they didn't work hard to earn. UBI fosters dependency on the State, and completely absolves people of Personal Responsibility for thier own well being. It's also too expensive. Also Orange : UBI is compromise position we can tolerate if it completely replaces the Welfare State, and is less wasteful than the billions of dollars being spent on inefficient Social Programs that don't work. UBI dollars can be invested back in to the economy through consumer spending, and can be a boon for entrepreneurs. Individuals know better than government bureaucrats how to spend Aid money, and UBI at the very least will give Individuals more autonomy than the Current Transfer System.

"Study: 40 percent are likely to attend a gathering of more than 10 this holiday season" https://www.vox.com/2020/11/14/21565314/covid-thanksgiving-holidays-distancing-masks Keep in mind this is during this is happening during a recent surge in Covid cases that's far surpassed the levels seen in April, which prompted lock downs across the country. I know I shouldn't be surprised anymore by how selfish and entitled a huge portion of the country is, but I have to wonder if America will reach a point where it becomes ungovernable before collapsing in on itself. 40 percent of the country living in a completely different reality from the rest of us is just not sustainable. The head of the Federal Coronavirus Taskforce just tweeted for people in Michigan to "Rise Up" against a series of recent restrictions from the Department of Health and Human Services meant to control the spread of the Virus. The fact that we have people in public positions of Authority more or less openly calling for Civil War is really unsettling, and totally unprecedented in American politics.

But a big difference is that Communism is (at least in theory, not so much in practice) compatible with Democracy, because the radical egalitarianism at its core isn't antithetical to human rights. The main problem being that it's unworkable in Practice, and prone to the emergence of power structures. Fascism on the other hand is antithetical to both Democracy and Human Rights, because its core tenets are ethno-supremacy and a mindset of society being made up of groups dominating other groups. Obviously both ideologies are highly problematic and best avoided, but at the same time it's probably best not to paint a false equivalency between the two.

It's amazing to me that people forget that America was a country founded on dissent. Blindly proclaiming America the best country in the world while being willfully ignorant about the ways that it's failing to live up to its own ideals isn't Patriotism. Anyone who gives a damn about this country wouldn't be obstructing badly needed reforms, and wouldn't bitch and moan about having to pay taxes to fund social programs (or whine about having to wear a mask during an epidemic). Loudmouthed nationalists in America are some of the most selfish and entitled people on the entire planet.

2020 America is a narcissistic monster that's currently in the process of devouring itself. That said, there are far worse places to live than the USA. Yet anyone loudly proclaiming that the USA is the best country in the world is someone with a simplistic worldview, and are almost always the same people who are actively suppressing needed reforms that would actually make the USA a better place to live.

Not sure if this is sarcasm or not?

That's fine if you're not interested in the subject, but having knowledge of fields of study with broad and useful applications in the real world is probably one criteria for being smart, is it not? I'm not interested in something like music theory, but I wouldn't ridicule someone who's much more knowledgeable about the subject than I am. I also wouldn't assume that jist because i'm not interested in it, that it isn't valuable.

Don't become a part of the 'Proudly Ignorant' mentality that"s become popular these days.

I'll second all of this; very well put. I'll also add that one of our two political parties has backslid over the last half century from a more moderate Conservative Party to a Corporatist Plutocracy and finally to a proto-fascist party vulnerable to Cult like thinking. There are a number of undemocratic institutions in America that give these people an outsized influence in American politics, with the Electoral College being one of the Prime examples. While people like Trump didn't create the divisions that exist in our society, he and his ilk have become experts and exploiting and exasperation economic and racial tensions for thier own personal gain. They also go out of thier way to block systemic reforms that meant to begin fixing the economic and social conditions that have given rise to palpable resentment and anger in a large section of the country.

Is there any particular period or person or historical event that you're interested in? That would be a great jumping off point.

Could anyone who came to power in Germany look as bad as Hitler? The effect that certain people in positions of power have on thier society are such that the culture and institutions of a society are irrevocably altered. The only way I see a future leader being as bad as Trump is if they shared his fascistic tendencies while also being competent in thier attempts to destroy democracy. And it's far from a given at this point whether or not a figure like that will eventually come to power in the United States. But that figure is not going to come from a Centrist politician who's only planning on running for one term as President.

I've said this before on another thread, but Leo is someone with hundreds of hours of content on a wide variety of topics, so it's not unexpected or even undesirable to disagree with him in several areas. Be careful of accepting actualized.org content uncritically, and make sure not to center your worldview around any one person or idea. Remember that Spiral Dynamics is just a model, albeit a very useful one, and keep its limitations in mind.

In front of the White House right now...

But didn't you hear? Trump is actually a secret genius according to an anonymous poster on 8chan. Conspiracy theorists, I swear...

There's a core of MAGA supporters that more or less behave as if they were in a Cult; no amount of reconciliation or reasonableness on your part will be enough to get them to abandon the Cult of Personality they've fallen under. Some portion of this group are literal white supremacists who subscribe to a fascist ideology; these people need to be socially ostracized from polite society, as allowing thier views to become normalized is extremely dangerous. Moderates on the other hand, or Conservatives who aren't Trump loyalists, should absolutely be reached out to and included. But we need to be able to draw distinction between people with whom we have political disagreements, and people operating in Bad Faith to undermine Democracy.

Similar to Spiral Dynamics, for as powerful as the Hegelian Dialectic is, I tend to see a lot of sloppy applications of it (for the H.D., often by Conspiracy Theorists who happened to take an intro level philosophy class at some point). Nevertheless, there's a number of ways you could use it too look at systems, such as: Thesis : Late Stage Capitalism / Neo - Liberalism Antithesis : Socialism (from the Left). Also Fascism (from the Right) Synthesis : Social Democracy (better scenario), -OR- White Ethno-State Plutocracy (worst case scenario).

Don't particularly agree with the McCain's politics and wouldn't have voted for him, but what a stark contrast between this man and Trump. One accepts defeat with humility, congratulates his opponent, and uses his concession speech to send a message of unity. The other whines and cries like a toddler while inciting civil unrest and blaming everyone but himself for losing the election. Also a good reminder that people of Integrity did exist at one time in the Republican Party, and it wasn't always the pro-fascist organization that it devolved in to.