Wordless

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Posts posted by Wordless

  1. Posted

    On 5/18/2021 at 0:07 PM, IAmPaulQuinn said:

    I want to build a meaningful life, following my core values and activities that will bring me to fulfillment. I want to focus on a small number of things that is important to me.

    Is the great family you mentioned one of those things? Building a healthy amount of material success and relationship experience would be a very reasonable path towards that goal.

  2. Posted

    One thing that helped me was to put a price tag on my time (like, how much is an hour of my free time worth). When I am pondering for half an hour over some tiny amount, I remind myself how expensive that pondering was, and ask myself if the investment was worth it. Same when I spend time to save money, like comparing prices before making a purchase. More often than not, the decision what to buy ends up more expensive than the cost of the thing. That insight has relaxed my relationship to money quite a bit.

  3. Posted

    I would define it as the finding that participation in rituals has an effect on people.

    Classical medicine knows this because it needs to be compensated for in scientific studies (examining a patient, diagnosing and giving them a pill is a ritual after all). At the same time the scientific paradigm sort of denies the effect because rituals have an unscientific or dirty feel to them, and the placebo pill is associated with lying to the patient.

    On the other side I would define shamanism as an honest use of the placebo effect. Shamans invent all sorts of crazy rituals and practices that have beneficial effects on their participants, often by guiding them into ecstatic states. The rituals might or might not be backed by some kind of lore, the important part is the they work. I've recently come across the idea that the rock star is a modern version of the shaman archetype.

  4. Posted

    3 hours ago, JessiChell said:

    Can we move "justice" to green?

    I would say justice is an appeal to conform to some standard that is held as absolute (like the code of law or some cultural norm). When someone demands justice, he is saying that there is a perpetrator (a person or out-group) who has violated the standard, and that there needs to to be some punishment or compensation to correct things. Saying "justice" signals moral superiority. This seems like a very blue perspective to me.

    Green would be more like mediating on eye level between subjective perspectives. I would call the value behind that equality rather than justice. Of course a healthy green person will use blue "programs" whenever the requirements for green are not met (like calling the police when feeling physically unsafe).

    Sometimes you see green content in blue structure, don't be confused by that. The cliché of the social justice warrior refers to that, people who are fighting more against an out-group than for a purpose. I would see the structure as more important than the content and call that behavior blue.

  5. Posted

    9 hours ago, supremeyingyang said:

    Maybe it's the Inspiration that Cathedrals once had (or maybe for other than me still have) that would be needed for such a Yellow Forum.

    I think transformational festivals actually do this, that would be like a cathedral made of people. It reminds me also of a story that the burning man festival has a "temple", which is one of the festival buildings, a large wooden structure. During the festival everyone can leave things there that strain him (written on pieces of paper or just on the walls). And in the end the whole thing is burned down as a ritual, forming a powerful symbol of impermanence and transformation.

  6. Posted · Edited by Wordless

    9 hours ago, supremeyingyang said:

    You have to build it, fill it with Art and Meaning. Then you have to maintain it and even renovate it.

    A cathedral is a typical stage blue solution (a massive, monolithic, centralized symbol of order and community) with the typical blue downsides (huge cost and high maintenance, no flexibility). A more yellow solution would be lightweight, scalable, decentralized and self-organizing.

    Here are two examples that I would consider functioning yellow spaces: One is the community around rebel wisdom (including groups like the stoa and the channels of their regular speakers). The other is the scene of transformational festivals.

    9 hours ago, Consept said:

    Yeah nice analogy, so in theory you'd want to create a space that if people enter they could learn and improve from. The only issue being that space would have to be majority let's yellow people on this case. If any others hold the majority yellow will be labelled within that context and any nuance yellow points have will be missed. 

    I'm not sure about that. The majority is only needed if you come from a tribal perspective of overpowering an outgroup. Warriors in a battle need to outnumber their opponents. If the mechanism is inspiration, things change. Artists on a festival do not need to outnumber the audience in order to make it an artistic place.

    If people are looking for inspiration, they will find out who inspires them and who doesn't. There is no need for a group of "officially yellow" people to be louder than everyone else.

    9 hours ago, Consept said:

    In practice what happens is that if a thread is mainly green and yellow and even orange, when someone who is blue or even red comes in they can't grasp that its not a binary situation of people that agree with me and people that don't. They think because everyone doesn't agree with them that those people don't get it and are just liberals for example or have been brainwashed by some opposing movement. What makes it worse is that they believe themselves to be yellow so they think their opinion is completely independent. It's this unawareness which makes it hard to talk, if everyone comes in willing to learn there's no problem no matter what stage they're at 

    I agree, it's not realistic to establish a different culture within a thread or subforum.

  7. Posted

    20 hours ago, supremeyingyang said:

    I unironically don't understand what that you want to say in THAT context.

    I tried to argue that the ability to fit in might be highly context dependent. So I propose that there is a large group of people who are prone to fall into tribalism when there is already a fight, but are wise enough not to throw the first stone.

    The image that just came to my mind is people entering a cathedral. You might think that very extroverted people are just not fit for that place because they are always so loud and agitated. But when they enter they can sense that their usual patterns are not a good match to the environment, and are able to adapt.

    I guess my main point is that attracting and transforming those who are ready seems more important than building a gated community where the elite can do its thing.

  8. Posted · Edited by Wordless

    17 hours ago, andyjohnsonman said:

    just general tribalism from any stage. If one were to point out the relative and illusory nature of politics there, you'd be met with a mechanical response of defensiveness. 

    Be aware that pointing out the relative and illusory nature of anything can itself be an excellent tool for tribal warfare. You can apply it to any argument or opinion you don't like, no need to even taylor it to the topic of a specific discussion. This sort of weaponisation is quite common on the forum. Also, if you go to a politics forum and say that all politics is illusory, it can come off as a preacher who is not interested in a productive discussion.

     

    4 hours ago, supremeyingyang said:

    It would be a big accomblishment to establish such a culture in a sub forum. Yellow exists in the few, there seem to be no Yellow Cities and very few Communities.. It would be a hard work and we had to create new community rules.

    It could be the case that Yellow Conversation are so deep and dedicated to outcome that few other will enjoy it. But! I forsee some harsh people will come, that should be there if you look at their stage of development, that'll take the lead if there isn't a security system in place.

    Another Point. I expect that a gathering of state Yellow type Individuals would need a common goal to work together. Something like: Invent a Yellow Communication Praxis to help future Generations to move into that OR Someone brings a big problem in and asks for Yellow counsel. Like a Yellow all topics allowed Stackoverflow.

    The vibe I get from this post is like:
    - There is us (the yellow people) and them (the less developed). The property of being civilized is hardwired to the person and does not depend on context or state of mind.
    - We need rules.
    - We need to secure our civilized space by building wall and gatekeepers to keep the keep the forces of chaos out.
    - We need to specify a goal in advance (top down organization).

    This sounds like the kind of solution that Blue would build. Yellow is more about openness and self organization. So I would see points like
    - How to create a space that attracts open minded people? Everyone should be able to find it, but it would not look particularly interesting to a dogmatic person. A big part of that is not to form a new ingroup. Green example: yoga classes do not need gatekeepers for keeping hooligans out, they just don't attract them.
    - How to cultivate an ambience of good faith and trust in that space? That needs more subtle things than rules and guards. For example: the police is there to keep me safe, but the presence of many officers usually means an unsafe situation.
    - What's the best medium? For example something that rewards long texts over bite-size memes. Or maybe prefer a zoom-call with video over an anonymous chat for more personal vulnerability.