Raze

No, first Gaza was the home of some Palestinians, than Israel ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes and pushed them into Gaza. Egypt briefly controlled it but even they didn’t brutalize Palestinians nearly as much as Israel. Israel constantly engaged in raids into Gaza to attack the people there. Such as in 48 when they poisoned a well used by Arabs to try and kill civilians or in 56 when they briefly occupied it and made civilians line up on a wall and shot them, ultimately killing hundreds. When Israel retook it they began colonizing it and allowing in violent settlers to seize territory and demolish Palestinian homes. Later they realized it wasn’t worth the cost and moved the settlers to the West Bank. When Hamas wrote its charter it was during the first intifada. In the first year of the first intifada Palestinians killed 0 Israelis, Israelis killed 22 Palestinians including multiple children, in the second year Palestinians killed six Israelis and Israelis killed over 600 Palestinians. By the end of it Palestinian had killed 110 Israelis (many soldiers or settlers) whereas Israelis killed 1100 Palestinians mostly civilians. IDF soldiers later testified they were ordered to snap the bones of protestors, including children. Palestinains voted for Hamas after a two state deal failed to materialize. Israel immediately tried to stage a violent coup which failed in Gaza then blockaded Gaza crushing their economy. The civil wars didn’t kill thousands of civilians, and were supported by Israel to try and remove Hamas. Israel’s blockade itself collectively punished the civilians, rockets were in response to this.

- Again, fighting back when people try to steal your homes and keep you occupied is not “starting” it, it is self defense. When the occupiers try to genocide you they aren’t “giving consequences”, they’re engaging in the elimination you accuse Palestinians of. Palestinians have no other option because Israel was actively taking their homes, blockading them, and killing them. - Weakness has nothing to do with who is the victim, the victims are the ones being occupied and brutalized, which was the Palestinians. It doesn’t matter if the Sioux were stronger or weaker, they were the victims because they were the ones being removed from their home - I’m not a Muslim. It isn’t just Muslims siding against Israel. Nearly every single country votes against their occupation at the UN, and a recent global poll found israel was one of the most hated countries in the world. It’s just that some people have a basic moral center and dislike racist violence. I’ve explained this to you I believe four times now, and each time you ignore that part of the comment and repeat what you already said. If you aren’t capable of addressing this don’t bother replying because it just goes nowhere.

They only invaded after israel already began expelling Palestinians, deir yassin was for example a motivator There weren’t attack plans, Egypt believed Israel was planning to attack so it did a blockade. If you think blockades mean you started a war, then Hamas hasn’t started a single war as Israel blockaded Gaza first. False, they attacked to regain territory that they lost previously. So you admit it’s not about security but rather hatred and elimination of Palestinians

The three wars weren’t with the intention of extermination. 1948 was to stop israel from exterminating the Palestinians. Israel committed far more massacres of civilians when they captured territory. 1967 began with a israel first strike 1973 was followed by Egypt making a peace deal and never attacking again. How exactly does that show “hatred” and “extermination”? it’s not about stopping Palestinians from developing for security, it’s about exterminating the Palestinians, the group engaging in extermination based on hatred is israel. Israel at one point funneled Money directly to Hamas. Tell me, how does it make sense to help Hamas develop its arms if the issue is they are afraid of their “hatred”? The stated reason was to make Hamas stronger and the PA weaker, because Hamas was still engaging in armed resistance while the PA ceased doing so. As they were fearful if the PA was stronger international groups would start pressuring them to stop killing and stealing from Palestinians as the PA gave them less of an ability to excuse it as “self defense“. The reason is because they want Palestinians to try to defend themselves against Israel to give Israel the excuse to kill more Palestinians and seize more territory, as bad faith actors and useful idiots can’t comprehend the idea that Palestinians are humans who will naturally fight and resist the people who perpetually destroy their lives. The idea that because the people who constantly kill and oppress hate you is a reason why you jut continue to kill and oppress them is the argument of immoral simpletons. You can find people who said slavery shouldn’t end because the slaves hated white people for what they did to them. You can find people who said apartheid shouldn’t end because the south africans hated the afrikaneers for what they did to them. It’s really just an excuse to consider exploiting people. In Israel’s case it’s particularly ridickois because oppression of the Palestinians has only worsened their security over time as the attacks become larger and more complex the more they are oppressed, and their internal stability and international support is lost more and more.

Hamas was voted in after israel rejected that proposal and the PA failed to get a deal while also acknowledging Israel and losing their last leverage, while Israel just expanded settlements. Hamas offered a long term ceasefire in exchange for a state. And again, why don’t you turn the logic around. Israel rejected the deal and blockaded 2 million people in Gaza, why are they surprised by oct 7? Keeping millions of people captive eternally will have backlash. The stupidity of your reasoning is that israel has all the power and leverage, but somehow the stateless population backed into the corner is the one responsible for every single action of any side and anything they do towards them is always justified. No other conflict is analyzed this way.

Extremely unlikely those were real numbers or they answered if he called later.

That’s not “Palestinians”. Passover massacre was carried about by Hamas, at that time a much smaller group during the second intifada when israel was killing, arresting and beating dozens of Palestinians nearly every day. Israel had weddings where they partied and celebrated by stabbing a photo of a 7 month old baby after Israelis burned him and his parents alive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duma_arson_attack#"Wedding_of_Hate" So if bombing is normal, should someone start bombing israel after that? How many thousands of children should be killed? Would it also be normal to block all food and medicine, destroy 90% of buildings, and say you want to expel millions of people, which is what israel is doing to Gaza?

That was a riot with unclear origins of violence, not a “terror attack”. Also that was not the beginning. There are letters from religious Zionists saying that they were seeing disrespect and abuse of the local population that was going to lead to conflict as earlier as 1900-1910. In 1919 armed Zionist militias were already doing drills in public chanting and holding banners announcing that all of Palestine would be theirs.

No it wasn’t, the first incident of Arab violence was a riot in response to a Zionist Militia marching. Modern day terrorist tactics like hiding bombs in shops etc. were introducing to the region by Zionist’s, one example being king David hotel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

It wasn’t 100 years, prior to Zionism Palestinians lived peacefully with Christian and Jewish minorities. They began trying to resist Zionist occupiers who entered their and started forming militias and terror groups. Their premise being hatred of Israel is irrelevant to the bigger issue of Israel’s *actions* being the continued destruction of Palestine, which is what actually matters and is happening. Ideally you would stop giving a group reasons to hate you instead of expecting continued torture of them will somehow solve the issue. ITs really no different than people who said ending Jim Crow can’t happen because black people resent white people, though (israel is far more brutal than Jim Crow). Yes, if you torment people they will hate you, that doesn’t give you license to torment them endlessly.

Wikileaks leaked emails revealing Israeli officials admit they keep Gazas economy on the brink of collapse https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna40926651 They can’t “grow the economy” when it is blockaded to stop that from happening, Gaza has a high literacy rate and high amount of college graduates but they usually end up unemployed with no ability to change it. Israel even limits how much they can fish and regularly kills Gazan fishermen. In the West Bank israel uses various tactics to make life there nearly unlivable. Palestinians are forced to wait hours outside checkpoints, there are plenty of documented cases of pregnant women being forced to give birth on the road because they won’t open them. It’s only suicide of Israel as a Jewish supremacist state that’s based on subjugation of Palestinians. Palestinains hate Israel’s subjugation of them, yes. The same way south africans hated whites who oppressed them during apartheid. In the case of apartheid whites were only 10% of the population, while Israelis are 50%, so they actually had more to fear. But it seems Israel’s internal racism is much stronger than apartheid and they are far less willing to give up their dream of an ethnosupremacist project built on someone else’s home. If you really want a two state solution will you and the IDF go and forcibly remove the hundreds of thousands of settlers who were specifically placed there to stop a two state solution? Let me guess, no. There’s almost no point in talking to you because everything is in one ear and out the other. ”why complain”. You haven’t disputed a single point I made, those would be the reasons people complain. If a country was keeping millions of Jews occupied without human rights, regularly arresting them without trial, allowing Muslims to demolish their homes and move in, regularly killing them, would you say “why are Jews complaining, just be good sports and let it happen”? No. But you have some bizarre dehumanizations of Muslims that not only do you think they are all violent and unreasonable but somehow they should also accept being endlessly brutalized in unreasonable circumstances. The former Israeli prime minister and the former head of Israel’s own internal security both admitted if they were Palestinian they’d take up arms and fight israel because of what they go through. It’s quite silly even the leaders involved with designing the actual situation of Palestinians can see this but you can’t. Sometimes I feel like people like you know very well but act obtuse for some reason. And again, the Muslim states have offered israel full normalization if it just gives up the occupation of remaining Palestinian territories, the last time a actual Muslim state (not a gurella force) attacked Israel was decades ago. Their position is in line with international law and agreed upon by nearly every other country in the world, feel free to look up the UN vote for two states.

No arab state has gone to war with Israel in decades. Israel has been fighting small rebel groups formed among populations it subjugates or subjugated at one point.

Ideally they’d end their racial supremacist states and grant Palestinians equal rights as Israeli citizens. That being said they won’t do that, and international law dictates you can’t occupy millions of people without rights based on race as that is apartheid, so they should agree to a two state solution, but they block it at the UN. The PA acknowledged Israel and gave up trying to destroy it, even Hamas offered a ten year ceasefire in exchange for a state. A better question is, what should Palestinians do about a colony that’s own ruling parties charter says they are against a Palestinian state and thus any form of Palestinian self determination, and are actively destroying Palestine through illegal settlement growth, detaining thousands, and regular mass murder, and now even ethnic cleansing and forced starvation.

If Muslim countries or groups do that while claiming to represent Muslims, yes they are partially responsible if it causes a rise in bigotry against Muslims. If a Muslim agrees that they represent Muslims, they can’t turn around and complain about Islam a phobia because of their actions because they further that very narrative. Similar to how you refer to Israel as “we” and say Israel represents the Jewish religion, if you say this you are adding to the conflation between blaming Jews for what Israel does.

The Muslim countries offered full normalization with Israel through the Arab peace initiative. Israel rejected it. Palestinains attempted many peaceful protests. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–2019_Gaza_border_protests The PA controls the West Bank and gave up armed resistance to Israel years ago, yet Israel just expanded settlements and allow settlers to regularly beat and kill Palestinians. If someone kicks you out of your home and occupies you without rights while regularly torturing and arresting your family members and purposefully crushing your economy, and they do this for decades and publicly say they will do it forever, why exactly would you work with them? You are acting as though israel was doing nothing this entire time and Palestinians out of nowhere attack for no reason. By September, 2023 was the deadliest year for Palestinian children in the West Bank since the first intifada. That was months before oct 7. In Gaza Israel’s blockade had gotten to the point where they had nearly half unemployment, limited access to clean water, and extremely high rates of depression and PTSD.

Israel controlled Gaza’s airspace, everything that officially enters its borders, and regularly killed Gazans inside of it. It’s not a “state”, it’s a massive ghetto. Israel isn’t fighting until Hamas surrenders, they already rejected Hamas giving up power to the PA and openly say the goal is to make Gaza unlivable and ethnically cleanse the population. Israel itself doesn’t consider it a state and makes it official state policy to stop a Palestinian state.

Actually that was Israel’s official hasbara about how Palestinians are “brainwashed”, they would constantly point to textbooks http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/yale-professor-blasts-blindness-of-israeli-education-minister-over-school-textbook-report-1.501475 What you’re linking to are the actual random cherry-picked clips as opposed to something like textbooks which would show a consistent operation of an education system. We can do the same for israel https://forward.com/opinion/197866/when-israelis-teach-their-kids-to-hate/

Study of textbooks found Palestinian textbooks weren’t antisemitic https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-08-10/ty-article/.premium/no-palestinian-textbooks-are-not-antisemitic/0000017f-f1ff-d223-a97f-fdff7f7f0000 The hatred isn’t because of the school system, it’s because israel has murdered thousands of civilians and occupies millions without rights.

Not really. - it is having a major brain drain, which is a big issue since it’s a highly stratified society. - it has dangerous levels of political polarization - it relies on international support which is called into question as international public support is declining rapidly - the economy has suffered a lowered credit rating, high debt, and rising cost of living Like I already said your analysis is based on two faulty assumptions, the more developed side will always be more moral and will always win. That isn’t true. A simple, example is Apartheid South Africa. White South Africans were more economically developed than South Africans, yet they lost control and the South Africans now treat them far better than they treated blacks during apartheid. (Not to say they don’t face mistreatment). You need to let go of the idea israel is some bastion of enlightened western liberals. When polled 66% said they would vote for Trump over Kamala. Among younger Israelis it was something insane like 90%. https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-shows-israelis-massively-favor-trump-over-harris-in-us-election/

These are UN votes on the issue. It isn’t leftists vs everyone else. It’s everyone else and leftists vs Israel and its lobby

This is how hamas justifies oct 7, yes.

Illegal settlements grew under every prime minister.

Yes, they can’t do whatever they want because of international pressure, but the polls show what the majority would be ok with if they could. Trump won among voters, not necessarily the whole population, also it was a choice between him and Kamala, not overall.

Haaretz has only 4% readership, it’s a small minority,